Electrification of V/Line lines

 
  melbtrip Chief Commissioner

Location: Annoying Orange
Electrification is about saving money long term - you won't achieve that using 1500VDC.

What has Manor Rd got to do with anything?  There is nothing there.  More redundant thinking.

Only thing you've said in this thread that makes any sense.
ZH836301
It called long term planning.

PTV must follow Vicroads when comes to planning new projects.

Example of good planning of Vicroads. (new freeway to the airport and may be an outer ring road for Melbourne. http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/victoria/another-freeway-to-melbourne-airport-set-for-approval-while-rail-link-languishes-20150612-ghkm0b

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  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
It called long term planning.
melbtrip

It called farming zone.
  melbtrip Chief Commissioner

Location: Annoying Orange
It called farming zone.
ZH836301
it can be easy rezone to residential zone.
  mickamious Junior Train Controller

Electrification to Melton is the next line on the cards and is already or has been planned out but as others have stated it would more than likely happen after the Melbourne Metro is done.
Geelong is only the main regional arterial city that is being considered for electrification due to patronage levels etc etc.. as others have stated but it will cost big $$ to complete these works..
On the previous page...
"Mejhammers1 states The Sunbury Electrification cost $270 Million in 2008" Your wrong on that... If there are any construction guys/girls who have done work on the rail on here which i'm sure there is and currently employed railway personnel, they would know that the figure above is wrong.
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
No, it was indeed $270 million.
  dollarbill85 Locomotive Fireman

The current population levels in and around Melton don't justify electrification for at least another 20 years. alot of the land surrounding the line is just empty paddocks at the moment. I think duplication should come first to Melton then onto Ballarat.

One problem that will be created by this is it will create a bottleneck between Sunshine and Deer Park, where V/Line trains which have their own track from Southern Cross to Sunshine will have to share tracks with metropolitan trains once again, which defeats the purpose of separating them in the first place. The only solution to this is acquistion of property to create extra capacity. After all the government probably still owns the land next to the railway line anyway. But who wants to give up their house for a railway line anyway? nobody
  712M Chief Commissioner

The current population levels in and around Melton don't justify electrification for at least another 20 years. alot of the land surrounding the line is just empty paddocks at the moment. I think duplication should come first to Melton then onto Ballarat.

One problem that will be created by this is it will create a bottleneck between Sunshine and Deer Park, where V/Line trains which have their own track from Southern Cross to Sunshine will have to share tracks with metropolitan trains once again, which defeats the purpose of separating them in the first place. The only solution to this is acquistion of property to create extra capacity. After all the government probably still owns the land next to the railway line anyway. But who wants to give up their house for a railway line anyway? nobody
dollarbill85
If electrification were to be done properly, then the line would be duplicated Melton - Deer Park West and then an additional track pair would be built alongside the existing RRL lines to meet the Metro Sunbury line tracks at Sunshine. This, however, would create conflicts with the Bendigo leg of RRL at Sunshine.

As for your argument that Melton electrification isn't justified, I would have to disagree. Melton residents have been calling for electrification for decades and despite having a larger population than Sunbury, Sunbury was completed first due to the cheaper cost. The current Bacchus Marsh peak hour services are already very well used even on the dismal frequency. Deer Park is also massive these days and patronage will boom with the 20 minute off-peak service starting Monday. A big factor to also consider is the fact that the H sets don't have a lot of life left in them and electrification would allow them to be phased out and replaced by additional Metro stock.
  Gman_86 Chief Commissioner

Location: Melton, where the sparks dare not roam!
The current population levels in and around Melton don't justify electrification for at least another 20 years. alot of the land surrounding the line is just empty paddocks at the moment. I think duplication should come first to Melton then onto Ballarat.

One problem that will be created by this is it will create a bottleneck between Sunshine and Deer Park, where V/Line trains which have their own track from Southern Cross to Sunshine will have to share tracks with metropolitan trains once again, which defeats the purpose of separating them in the first place. The only solution to this is acquistion of property to create extra capacity. After all the government probably still owns the land next to the railway line anyway. But who wants to give up their house for a railway line anyway? nobody
dollarbill85
While I do think you are wrong, and that Melton could easily justify electrification now, I think 20 years is probably about how far away it realistically is. After Melbourne Metro is built, electrification to Melton, and/ or a line to Melbourne Airport are likely to be the next major rail project undertaken by the government.

As far as Melton goes, it would include a new station at Caroline Springs, located at Christies Road, near the junction to the Boral Siding. It would also include brand new dual track from Sunshine (current Sunbury line platforms) to Caroline Springs, and duplicated track as far as Melton.

Rockbank station would also be in for a major upgrade, as major new developments are beginning in the area, and the station will begin to get a lot more use, and there is also land set aside for a possible additional station near Ferris Rd, east of Melton, an area also set for big developments in the coming decades.

Along with all of this, new stabling sidings would need to be built at Melton, something there is already ample room for.
  x31 Chief Commissioner

Location: gallifrey
No, it was indeed $270 million.
"ZH836301"


Sunbury cost $270m for electrification alone?

Holy crap batman.

Time to bring in the Chinese on 475 visas using the new FTA!
  Gman_86 Chief Commissioner

Location: Melton, where the sparks dare not roam!
There is a bit more to it than just stringing up a few trolley wires. Diggers Rest station required a complete rebuild, Sunbury got a major station upgrade, as well as new stabling facilities. 3 new Electrical substations where required, and new stabling was also built at a new location at Calder Park, replacing the former facilities at St Albans which have since been abolished. And all of that and we haven't even factored in signalling upgrades. Like I said, it's not just about a few wires.
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
Sunbury cost $270m for electrification alone?
x31

So with your wealth of engineering experience, how much should it have cost?
  Camster Chief Commissioner

Location: Geelong
I'd say electrification to Melton is definitely needed and it makes sense for a suburb that close to the city to be electrified. The new RRL should have been done with two dedicated metro tracks for the two new stations also.  Extending the wires too far does not seem to be a wise decision, I imagine that people further out of the city do not want to be pushed onto Metro trains, especially if they are going to take seats out of the metro trains. Oh and I can hear the responses now, "they can have dedicated sparks for the longer lines", well they have got dedicated trains now, they are V'los.
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
What logic decrees that all electrified trains must be uncomfortable, slow, joke services?

Adding two separate tracks for services to Wydenham is overkill to - if shorts are required, Geelong services will not be frequent enough to 'catch' them (provided they don't litter the corridor with extra stations it should be fine).
  Camster Chief Commissioner

Location: Geelong
What logic decrees that all electrified trains must be uncomfortable, slow, joke services?

Adding two separate tracks for services to Wydenham is overkill to - if shorts are required, Geelong services will not be frequent enough to 'catch' them (provided they don't litter the corridor with extra stations it should be fine).
ZH836301
On your first point, there is no reason for electric trains to be slow etc. However, we have gone down the path of ordering V'lo's for the country services, so don't see the point of electrifying the lines, and having to order specialist electric rolling stock to run the electric country services.

On the second point, I don't see how the people of Wyndenham and Tarneit are going to fit on the Geelong services. But with the extra trains, I may be wrong on that.
  dollarbill85 Locomotive Fireman

Geelong line electrification is the only one that is even remotely being considered. The grades of the Ballarat line work in favour of electrification, but the extra distance and lower patronage compared to Geelong work against it. Melton is a definite, but that's almost an outer suburban extension - as would Wallan. Warragul? Probably not.

The Sunbury extension demonstrated the pitfalls of 1500VDC electrification - 3 substations for a 15 km, two station extension that only gets a 40 minute off-peak frequency. Melton electrification might not end up being done at 1500VDC, nor Wallan or Geelong.


Suburban Electric services used to go to Warragul, and the overhead wires ran as far as Traralgon.
LancedDendrite
  dollarbill85 Locomotive Fireman

Queensland has electric trains running all the way up to Cairns, Sydney has long distance electric trains, and let's not forget The Mandurah Line in Perth which is about the same distance between Melbourne and Geelong, and Europe has long distance electric trains all over the place. Here in Australia we are so behind in terms of good public transport Infrastructure. We need to catch up or we are going to get left behind.

As far as I know, Geelong Electrification is on the cards and has been for many years. I think track duplication beyond Geelong Station should also be done at the time. I know it might not be feasible now to extend electrification to places such as Ballarat, Bendigo, Seymour and Traralgon (Traralgon used to be electrified), but I think at the very least they should start planning for the future in regard to those lines. In the not too distant future Melbourne probably grow and swallow up those areas, so I think a bit of forward planning wouldn't go astray
  Gman_86 Chief Commissioner

Location: Melton, where the sparks dare not roam!
Queensland has electric trains running all the way up to Cairns
Dollarbill85
The Queensland North Coast Line is only electrified as far as Rockhampton, not all the way to Cairns. That said, still a lot more than anyhting we have down here in Victoria.

The Gippsland line was electrified as far as Traralgon in the 1950s, this was cost effective due to the amount of coal briquette traffic coming out of the region. Unfortunately this was also the reason it is no longer electrified. The briquette traffic slowed up considerably by the 1980s, and ceased completely by the 1990s, right around the same time that the infrastructure was in need of replacement. Long story short, it was far too cheap to remove it, rather than to invest Millions when the freight task it was there for just didn't exist anymore.
  dollarbill85 Locomotive Fireman

Queensland has electric trains running all the way up to Cairns
The Queensland North Coast Line is only electrified as far as Rockhampton, not all the way to Cairns. That said, still a lot more than anyhting we have down here in Victoria.

The Gippsland line was electrified as far as Traralgon in the 1950s, this was cost effective due to the amount of coal briquette traffic coming out of the region. Unfortunately this was also the reason it is no longer electrified. The briquette traffic slowed up considerably by the 1980s, and ceased completely by the 1990s, right around the same time that the infrastructure was in need of replacement. Long story short, it was far too cheap to remove it, rather than to invest Millions when the freight task it was there for just didn't exist anymore.


Don't know why I thought it ran all the way to Cairns. So the primary purpose of electrification wasn't for extending Metropolitan services to Warragul? I remember waiting at Spencer Street in 1994 and an electric train going to Warragul stopped at the platform.  
Gman_86
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

This the reality of what is reasonably needed, can be afforded and will most likely happen  short - medium term:

1.  Extension electrification Cranbourne to Cranbourne East .
2. Extension of Werribee electrification to Wyndam Vale.
3. Electrification following duplication to Melton., for completion by  Metro Tunnel opening .
4. Electrification of the  RRL track pair from Southern Cross to Wyndamvale via Tarneit .
Allows  Tarneit & Wyndam Vale to be served by sparks, releasing V/Locity capacity to cater for Geelong growth .
  dollarbill85 Locomotive Fireman

This the reality of what is reasonably needed, can be afforded and will most likely happen  short - medium term:

1.  Extension electrification Cranbourne to Cranbourne East .
2. Extension of Werribee electrification to Wyndam Vale.
3. Electrification following duplication to Melton., for completion by  Metro Tunnel opening .
4. Electrification of the  RRL track pair from Southern Cross to Wyndamvale via Tarneit .
Allows  Tarneit & Wyndam Vale to be served by sparks, releasing V/Locity capacity to cater for Geelong growth.


1. Cranbourne East is only the start. Plans exist to extend the railway as far as Clyde and eventually Koo-Wee-Rup. And whenever the proposed third airport is built, there are plans for a station there too, but in the longer term of course.

2. This would re-establish the connection to V/Line services and will provide relief to local bus routes. Space has already been provided at Wyndham Vale Station for a third platform, and the space is also there for metropolitan train tracks. 2 new stations would be needed, Werribee West/Westleigh and Black Forest Road (the latter has already been proposed)

3. The process to get this done is already underway. Eventual electrification will free up v/line rollling stock for use on other lines.

4. Apparantly this is part of the plan. Will probably happen when the other 4 proposed stations get built, but there will need to be sufficient demand for them i.e. when the area starts to get more built up, and that will put pressure on the 2 existing stations. In the long term electification should eventually reach Waurn Ponds Station. Duplication of this section has been proposed, but again this is a longer term goal. Specially designed v/locity electric units will be needed.
kuldalai
  nswtrains Chief Commissioner

This the reality of what is reasonably needed, can be afforded and will most likely happen  short - medium term:

1.  Extension electrification Cranbourne to Cranbourne East .
2. Extension of Werribee electrification to Wyndam Vale.
3. Electrification following duplication to Melton., for completion by  Metro Tunnel opening .
4. Electrification of the  RRL track pair from Southern Cross to Wyndamvale via Tarneit .
Allows  Tarneit & Wyndam Vale to be served by sparks, releasing V/Locity capacity to cater for Geelong growth.


1. Cranbourne East is only the start. Plans exist to extend the railway as far as Clyde and eventually Koo-Wee-Rup. And whenever the proposed third airport is built, there are plans for a station there too, but in the longer term of course.

2. This would re-establish the connection to V/Line services and will provide relief to local bus routes. Space has already been provided at Wyndham Vale Station for a third platform, and the space is also there for metropolitan train tracks. 2 new stations would be needed, Werribee West/Westleigh and Black Forest Road (the latter has already been proposed)

3. The process to get this done is already underway. Eventual electrification will free up v/line rollling stock for use on other lines.

4. Apparantly this is part of the plan. Will probably happen when the other 4 proposed stations get built, but there will need to be sufficient demand for them i.e. when the area starts to get more built up, and that will put pressure on the 2 existing stations. In the long term electification should eventually reach Waurn Ponds Station. Duplication of this section has been proposed, but again this is a longer term goal. Specially designed v/locity electric units will be needed.
dollarbill85
I know it will be difficult but Sydney and Melbourne should be converted to 25KV and all future extensions. 1500 VDC is an obsolete technology. That is the trouble with being early adaptors. Pity they did not go for 3rd rail 650 VDC as conversion would have been easier.
  LancedDendrite Chief Commissioner

Location: North Haverbrook; where the monorail is king!
This the reality of what is reasonably needed, can be afforded and will most likely happen  short - medium term:

1.  Extension electrification Cranbourne to Cranbourne East .
2. Extension of Werribee electrification to Wyndam Vale.
3. Electrification following duplication to Melton., for completion by  Metro Tunnel opening .
4. Electrification of the  RRL track pair from Southern Cross to Wyndamvale via Tarneit .
Allows  Tarneit & Wyndam Vale to be served by sparks, releasing V/Locity capacity to cater for Geelong growth .
kuldalai
  1. Cranbourne East is useless without full duplication from Dandenong to Cranbourne and will be hideously expensive due to the need for at least 2, possibly 3 grade separations. It should be the end goal of a comprehensive Cranbourne line upgrade, not a singular project.
  2. Logical and overdue.
  3. Probably not going to happen by the time Melbourne Metro opens, the MMRA has deicded to build a turnback at West Footscray to deal with the imbalance of east-west services.
  4. I'm not sure if RRL trunk electrification just to Wyndham Vale is justified in-and-of-itself, it's kind of a 'half-pregnant' project. Electrify all the way to Geelong or use the electrified RRL trunk to handle a portion of Melbourne Airport Rail Link express traffic when that gets built.
  dollarbill85 Locomotive Fireman

This the reality of what is reasonably needed, can be afforded and will most likely happen  short - medium term:

1.  Extension electrification Cranbourne to Cranbourne East .
2. Extension of Werribee electrification to Wyndam Vale.
3. Electrification following duplication to Melton., for completion by  Metro Tunnel opening .
4. Electrification of the  RRL track pair from Southern Cross to Wyndamvale via Tarneit .
Allows  Tarneit & Wyndam Vale to be served by sparks, releasing V/Locity capacity to cater for Geelong growth .
  1. Cranbourne East is useless without full duplication from Dandenong to Cranbourne and will be hideously expensive due to the need for at least 2, possibly 3 grade separations. It should be the end goal of a comprehensive Cranbourne line upgrade, not a singular project.
  2. Logical and overdue.
  3. Probably not going to happen by the time Melbourne Metro opens, the MMRA has deicded to build a turnback at West Footscray to deal with the imbalance of east-west services.
  4. I'm not sure if RRL trunk electrification just to Wyndham Vale is justified in-and-of-itself, it's kind of a 'half-pregnant' project. Electrify all the way to Geelong or use the electrified RRL trunk to handle a portion of Melbourne Airport Rail Link express traffic when that gets built.
LancedDendrite
1. Duplication was proposed by the former Napthine Government, but i'm not aware of the current government's position on this. The goal of the current state government is to turn our rail network into a metro system, but that can only happen with duplication. more level crossing removals (most of the crossings in that corridor are earmarked for removal in addition to the Caulfield-Dandenong skyrail).

2. Enough said.

3. This is slated to happen in the next 20 years, 10 years after MM opens.

4. Agreed. According to the network development plan, The Airport Line is supposed to branch off at Sunshine with and overpass built to separate Airport services from Sunbury Line services, and it shows the airport line feeding into the Melbourne Metro tunnel, although if they want it to be a more viable service, routing it via RRL would speed up travel times. And the overhead gantry's for electrification already exist.
  Rossco T Chief Train Controller

Location: Camberwell, Victoria
This the reality of what is reasonably needed, can be afforded and will most likely happen  short - medium term:

1.  Extension electrification Cranbourne to Cranbourne East .
2. Extension of Werribee electrification to Wyndam Vale.
3. Electrification following duplication to Melton., for completion by  Metro Tunnel opening .
4. Electrification of the  RRL track pair from Southern Cross to Wyndamvale via Tarneit .
Allows  Tarneit & Wyndam Vale to be served by sparks, releasing V/Locity capacity to cater for Geelong growth .
kuldalai
What about the electrifications to Wallan and Baxter, should those two also be on the list of median to short term electrification projects?

Ross
  dollarbill85 Locomotive Fireman

This the reality of what is reasonably needed, can be afforded and will most likely happen  short - medium term:

1.  Extension electrification Cranbourne to Cranbourne East .
2. Extension of Werribee electrification to Wyndam Vale.
3. Electrification following duplication to Melton., for completion by  Metro Tunnel opening .
4. Electrification of the  RRL track pair from Southern Cross to Wyndamvale via Tarneit .
Allows  Tarneit & Wyndam Vale to be served by sparks, releasing V/Locity capacity to cater for Geelong growth .
What about the electrifications to Wallan and Baxter, should those two also be on the list of median to short term electrification projects?

Ross
Rossco T
Baxter is on the Agenda, but Wallan i'm not sure about

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