Glenelg Line South

 
  xdford Chief Train Controller

My interest was piqued in the Glenelg line south and I wonder what the track arrangement at Goodwood may have looked like ... anyone know a firm source for this,

TIA

Regards  

Trevor

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  cmjl Station Master

Location: Adelaide
Not 100% sure of what you are referring to here xdford, but if it is the old Glenelg Railway line that was closed in the late 1920's when the Glenelg tram line opened then the junction for the line was between Mile End and the old Bakewell bridge.  The line followed near what is James Congdon drive, with the old Mile End platform still in place until the mid 1990's.  It ran down Deakin Avenue, Birdwood Terrace and Osborn Terrace until it landed in Glenelg.  The old Plympton platform remains (it's quite long too), and there are bridge works also still extant along the route.

Hit up google maps and you can easily see the path it took.

From what I understand, the first incarnation of the tram bridge at Goodwood was built specifically for the tram service.  The bridge was upgraded in the 1970's.
  torrens5022 Junior Train Controller

The closed Glenelg line has a better and quicker route, imagine how different the area along it would look now if it was still open -https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Terrace_%E2%80%93_Glenelg_railway_line
  allan Chief Commissioner

Does the question relate to Goodwood Rd or to Goodwood Station?
  kipioneer Chief Commissioner

Location: Aberfoyle Park
The two railways, Glenelg and Nairne, crossed at grade at Goodwood being constructed by different owners.    

They never had a connecting track built though there was some work done on one around 1918 when some thought was given to electrifying the railway to Glenelg.     This work consisted of a bridge over the pedestrian subway, and over Brown Hill Creek.  

Any trace of that connection has long since disappeared with the Unley Council's work on the Swimming Centre and the surrounding park.

The bridge was built in 1929 to carry the trams over the railway since the SAR had an aversion to at grade crossings with the MTT if they could possibly avoided.

The bridge was raised and redecked in the 1970's I think.     Someone will remember when.
  nm39 Chief Commissioner

Location: By a road taking pictures
The Railway xdford is referring to is the Adelaide, Glenelg and Suburban Railway which followed the course of the current Glenelg Tram Line. The Holdfast Bay Railway Company opened the other railway from North Terrace to Glenelg in 1880 in competition to the Adelaide, Glenelg and Suburban Railway. On 11 May 1882 the two companies merged to form Glenelg Railway Company Ltd. It is of note that on 12 August 1879 a meeting was held in Glenelg where it was decided to do the same deal that the Holdfast Bay Railway did with the Nairne Railway except that they came off of the Nairne Line at Goodwood.
I can not find details of what the turn out arrangement was, but both railways left from North Terrace from then on. In 1924, WA Webb proposed that the two railway lines be given to the Municipal Tramways Trust (MTT) and be converted to electric trams. This occurred in 1929 with the last service of trains from North Terrace coinciding with the first Tram service from South Terrace in December.
  nm39 Chief Commissioner

Location: By a road taking pictures
I can not find details of what the turn out arrangement was, but both railways left from North Terrace from then on. In 1924, WA Webb proposed that the two railway lines be given to the Municipal Tramways Trust (MTT) and be converted to electric trams. This occurred in 1929 with the last service of trains from North Terrace coinciding with the first Tram service from South Terrace in December.
"nm39"

I can't find out details of what the turn out was because apparently the alignment wasn't changed and trams still continued to South Terrace until 2 April 1929.
  nm39 Chief Commissioner

Location: By a road taking pictures
I can not find details of what the turn out arrangement was, but both railways left from North Terrace from then on. In 1924, WA Webb proposed that the two railway lines be given to the Municipal Tramways Trust (MTT) and be converted to electric trams. This occurred in 1929 with the last service of trains from North Terrace coinciding with the first Tram service from South Terrace in December.
"nm39"

I can't find out details of what the turn out was because apparently the alignment wasn't changed and trams still continued to South Terrace until 2 April 1929.
"nm39"

Further investigation reveals that the train line crossed the South Mainline at grade. Also the train line was laid at broad gauge and was converted to standard gauge during the conversion to electrification. It was at this point that the flyover was built.
  kipioneer Chief Commissioner

Location: Aberfoyle Park
The Railway xdford is referring to is the Adelaide, Glenelg and Suburban Railway which followed the course of the current Glenelg Tram Line. The Holdfast Bay Railway Company opened the other railway from North Terrace to Glenelg in 1880 in competition to the Adelaide, Glenelg and Suburban Railway. On 11 May 1882 the two companies merged to form Glenelg Railway Company Ltd. It is of note that on 12 August 1879 a meeting was held in Glenelg where it was decided to do the same deal that the Holdfast Bay Railway did with the Nairne Railway except that they came off of the Nairne Line at Goodwood.
I can not find details of what the turn out arrangement was, but both railways left from North Terrace from then on. In 1924, WA Webb proposed that the two railway lines be given to the Municipal Tramways Trust (MTT) and be converted to electric trams. This occurred in 1929 with the last service of trains from North Terrace coinciding with the first Tram service from South Terrace in December.
nm39
Not quite right, nm39.    The SAR North Terrace line operated from the present North Terrace station and the South Terrace line from, firstly King William Street outside the Supreme Court, then as tram traffic increased, from a station at South Terrace more or less where the current South Terrace tram stop is, right up until their closure in 1929.

The only point the two lines interconnected was at Glenelg.

A good history of the line up until 1979 can be found in Wheaton, R. T.:  Rails to The Bay; in commemoration of the fortieth anniversary of the reopening of the South Terrace and Glenelg Railway as an electric tramway on December 14, 1929,  Sydney, Australian Electric Traction Association [1971].

The State Library has at least 2 copies:
Pamphlets 388.4609942 ONSITE STORE
S Australiana Pamphlets 388.4609942 ONSITE STORE

which means they are available on request in the library.   It might take a few minutes to retrieve one.
  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".
Also a good read if you can find it is a book about all the coastal type of railways in South Australia metro area at least. The book is titled "Little coastal railways of the Adelaide Plains, 1873- 1929" the author is David Mack and carries the ISBN number 0 85904 041 0.  it was published in 1986 so you might find it at a libaray or even a second hand book place if you are lucky. This book gives the whole history of these lines and a few that were not that well known as well. It has numerous photographs throughout the book as well.

The other book that might help you out is "The Overland Railway" by W. H. Callaghan published in 1992 this book has numerous photo's and track plans in it for nearly all the stations on the Overland railway. It also has track plans for very early years at most stations as well. This book is also now out of print but might be available through a library or a second hand book seller!
  Epsilon2012 Station Master

Location: Adelaide, Australia
Also a good read if you can find it is a book about all the coastal type of railways in South Australia metro area at least. The book is titled "Little coastal railways of the Adelaide Plains, 1873- 1929" the author is David Mack and carries the ISBN number 0 85904 041 0.  it was published in 1986 so you might find it at a libaray or even a second hand book place if you are lucky. This book gives the whole history of these lines and a few that were not that well known as well. It has numerous photographs throughout the book as well.

The other book that might help you out is "The Overland Railway" by W. H. Callaghan published in 1992 this book has numerous photo's and track plans in it for nearly all the stations on the Overland railway. It also has track plans for very early years at most stations as well. This book is also now out of print but might be available through a library or a second hand book seller!
David Peters
Thanks for this tip! Found and bought a copy of "The Overland Railway" today. Between that and the Samphire and stone (Northfield railway line history) book I bought at NRM recently, My Xmas reading is taken care of Smile

Catcha,
Epsilon
  steam4ian Chief Commissioner

Trevor

I think the correct information has now been recorded particularly by Neil's post (Kipioneer).

I remember the former railway station building where the tram line crossed Goodwood Road, it was used as a scout hall.

There was a parallel tram line from King William Road to Goodwood road which ultimately terminated at Colonel Light Gardens. The shop front at the Railway Tce, Albert St and Goodwood Road junction is curved to allow the trams to swing into Goodwood Road.

Regards
Ian
  jc Beginner

There are many old maps that show a connection between the two Glenelg railway lines, running across Anzac Highway in Morphettville where Salisbury Terrace is today.

http://www.slsa.sa.gov.au/maps/map/2116/2116992/map2116992_4_zmp.pdf
  kipioneer Chief Commissioner

Location: Aberfoyle Park
There are many old maps that show a connection between the two Glenelg railway lines, running across Anzac Highway in Morphettville where Salisbury Terrace is today.

http://www.slsa.sa.gov.au/maps/map/2116/2116992/map2116992_4_zmp.pdf
jc
This never actually connected.    The two lines remained separate at Morphettville, side by side.
  Alco_Haulic Chief Commissioner

Location: Eating out...
There are many old maps that show a connection between the two Glenelg railway lines, running across Anzac Highway in Morphettville where Salisbury Terrace is today.

http://www.slsa.sa.gov.au/maps/map/2116/2116992/map2116992_4_zmp.pdf
This never actually connected.    The two lines remained separate at Morphettville, side by side.
kipioneer
What about the connection shown on the map from Anzac hwy, down Brighton rd, to Jetty rd?
  kipioneer Chief Commissioner

Location: Aberfoyle Park
What about the connection shown on the map from Anzac hwy, down Brighton rd, to Jetty rd?
Alco_Haulic
That connection was built in SAR days from the St Leonards Yard to Jetty Road.     It may have been the only connection.   I don't think there was one in Moseley Square.
  jc Beginner

There are many old maps that show a connection between the two Glenelg railway lines, running across Anzac Highway in Morphettville where Salisbury Terrace is today.

http://www.slsa.sa.gov.au/maps/map/2116/2116992/map2116992_4_zmp.pdf
This never actually connected.    The two lines remained separate at Morphettville, side by side.
kipioneer
Do you have any more info about this area? there are so many maps that show this connection I'm curious now as to how close it became to construction.

I have found the plan for the area showing a branch line planned to be closer to Morphett road than the connection that most other maps show.
http://www.slsa.sa.gov.au/maps/map/1705/1705512/map1705512_zmp.pdf

Here is a 1917 map showing the line in detail with property boundaries, it must have come very close to being laid before the changes in 1929.
http://www.slsa.sa.gov.au/maps/series/Adelaide_region_reticulation_SA_3168/map8315ghhd_3168_48.pdf
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
Interesting thread. I wonder what the western suburbs would look like now-days with two tram services to Glenelg - the existing line via Goodwood and another interurban style tram line from North Terrace via Hilton, presumably connected to the MTT system somewhere there. Presumably part of the decision to dump the line was the fact that only one line to Glenelg was really viable.

I have some books that refer to the intended conversion but not in detail - does anyone know if there was any planning done around where the line was going to connect to the tram system? I'd be interested to know.
  kipioneer Chief Commissioner

Location: Aberfoyle Park
Roger Wheaton's book will give you all the information required including the Morphettville siding from the North Terrace line and the Brighton Road connection.

It is in the State Library and, according to Trove, in the libraries of all 3 universities.    The Tramway Museum may also have copies for sale but I imagine it is long out of print.
  kipioneer Chief Commissioner

Location: Aberfoyle Park
Some dates:

  • South Terrace Line: 2nd August 1873
  • North Terrace line: 25th May 1880
  • Amalgamation of the 2 lines: 1881 - I can find no date but the amalgamation allowed the new company to operate special services for Proclamation Day 1881 over both lines.
  • Crossing at Goodwood: 14th March 1883, so I guess strictly speaking the SAR line to Aldgate crossed the Glenelg line on the level rather than the other way around.
  • SAR takeover: 16th December 1899


The connections:
  • Brighton Road connection:  1881 by the then new Glenelg Railway Company allowing the South Terrace Depot to be closed and operations consolidated at the St Leonards depot.
  • Morphettville "Connection":  1908 by the SAR with the intention of diverting North Terrace line trains to the South Terrace line at Morphettville.     There was no physical connection provided, however, and the diversion was used for race course traffic only.
  • Moseley Square: 1926 with a view to providing a balloon loop for the benefit of rail motors  just then being introduced on the SAR system.    Very few ever operated on the Glenelg lines.
  • Goodwood Connection:  early 1920's.    Some work was undertaken but never completed.    It would have been a double track line from the Suburban lines to the Glenelg line.     Traces of this remained until relatively recently.


The end and a new beginning:
  • South Terrace line closed 2nd April 1929
  • North Terrace line closed 14th December 1929
  • Tram opened 14th December 1929
  SAR526 Chief Train Controller

Location: Adelaide, South Australia.
Roger Wheaton's book will give you all the information required including the Morphettville siding from the North Terrace line and the Brighton Road connection.
kipioneer
As a 20-something tram, train and theatre enthusiast back in the 1940s, I well remember the broad gauge tracks running at kerbside along the northern side of Anzac Highway and a single line turning into Colley Terrace on the western side next to the park.

There was a break of gauge to 4'8½", roughly opposite the Seaview Theatre, halfway to Jetty Road. Steam trains from North Terrace had terminated there until the same day on which the Victoria Square tramline opened in December 1929.

During times of very heavy traffic, trams stabled right up to the break of gauge and, as the line had clearly been narrowed for that purpose, I would surmise that it connected eastwards into the Jetty Road tracks in the steam days, at least for traffic working purposes.
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
  • Goodwood Connection:  early 1920's.    Some work was undertaken but never completed.    It would have been a double track line from the Suburban lines to the Glenelg line.     Traces of this remained until relatively recently.
kipioneer
Are you referring here to a proposal to connect the Glenelg line directly to the SAR suburban system at Goodwood? Interesting. So there were traces of the work done; would that have involved curves from the main-line around to connect with the Glenelg line? It's interesting to contemplate what might have happened.

The end and a new beginning: South Terrace line closed 2nd April 1929 North Terrace line closed 14th December 1929 Tram opened 14th December 1929
kipioneer
I can understand why the North Terrace line was closed immediately - when the Glenelg line was re-launched on the cusp of a new decade they used state-of-the-art purpose built interurban cars (the H class trams) and it must have seemed positively space-age in comparison to the old SAR steam trains.
  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".
According to an old SAR plan book of stations I have here somewhere the tracks at Morphettville Racecourse never actually connected. There was an Island platform with one set of tracks using both sides of the platform from the North Terrace line, the South Terrace line presumably just had a step down type of platform. They were both BG at the time though and could have easily been connected there by simply installing two points one on each line but it was never done probably because it was going to be converted later as a tramline.

This plan is dated  Sept 5 1913.
  kipioneer Chief Commissioner

Location: Aberfoyle Park
According to an old SAR plan book of stations I have here somewhere the tracks at Morphettville Racecourse never actually connected. There was an Island platform with one set of tracks using both sides of the platform from the North Terrace line, the South Terrace line presumably just had a step down type of platform. They were both BG at the time though and could have easily been connected there by simply installing two points one on each line but it was never done probably because it was going to be converted later as a tramline.

This plan is dated  Sept 5 1913.
David Peters
I think the reason is more political than one of timing, David.

It appears the SAR Commissioner wanted to rationalise the lines west of Morphettville but was met with opposition.     He undertook the work to bring the North Terrace line over to Morphettville but may well have refrained from making the connection because of this opposition.

Without further research I can't say whether his idea was to close the North Terrace line beyond Camden, the junction, and the South Terrace line east of Morphettville or just the North Terrace line truncation.   I must look at the Parliamentary records around this time to see what was intended.

Don't forget the lines traversed open country for considerable distances in those days.

The proposal was finally defeated in 1914 still 15 years before the tram conversion.
  vinelander Junior Train Controller

Was one of these lines also connected to Brighton via the Sandhills? I believe a line existed between Glenelg and Brighton at sometime in the past but I don't know if it was goods or passenger. I'm sure someone on this forum will have the facts.

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