It's the economy, stupid!

 
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

@DonDunstan Its Jacqui not Jackie. Jacqui Lambie is formidible, much respect. Pauline on the other hand . .  I suspect Jacqui Lambie did most of the heavy lifting.

Racists and bigots. Does that include Pauline?

Michael

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  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
So Michael, horrible old bigot Pauline was completely wrong when she argued against the abolition of a $4 billion vocational educational fund the other day. Because anything that Pauline says is wrong, right?
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

@DonDunstan Wow Don take ot easy. Apart from not really answering my question so what if she did argue against that. Admirable as it is big deal. Then Ms Hanson blots her copybook by being on a Panel regarding violence against women and she bangs on about women rorting the system.

Sorry Don Jacqui Lambie is 10 times the Politician a political opportunist hack like Hanson will be on her best day.

Michael
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
@DonDunstan Wow Don take ot easy.
mejhammers1
Well Michael we've been here several times before and all I'm saying is that you have to listen to what they say and observe what they do. Pauline has said and done some shocking things - I agree - but like Jacqui Lambie it's better to have those people there shaking the system up a bit than it is to just have representation from the bipartisan political machine. Aaron commented about Senator Rex Patrick earlier; I haven't really been following him as much - Derryn Hinch was really a waste of space while he was there.

Anyway - just my two cents.
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

@DonDunstan Yes Jacqui Lambie no problems. Pauline Hanson shake things up. Do us a favour Don. She has said very little of substance. You allude to other polticians being racist but ignore one big one. Ms Hanson. Because she has said a couple of things in the pretence of supporting the little person it does not absolve her of the vile things she has said.

You forget she was part of the Liberal party machine before they threw her trifling behind out because she was too racist.

Yeah an ornament to Parliament. NOT

Michael
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
@DonDunstan Yes Jacqui Lambie no problems. Pauline Hanson shake things up. Do us a favour Don. She has said very little of substance. You allude to other polticians being racist but ignore one big one. Ms Hanson. Because she has said a couple of things in the pretence of supporting the little person it does not absolve her of the vile things she has said.

You forget she was part of the Liberal party machine before they threw her trifling behind out because she was too racist.

Yeah an ornament to Parliament. NOT

Michael
mejhammers1
Yeah see you need to be more forgiving of people, Michael.

Namaste.
  nswtrains Chief Commissioner

In what way did Gillard scuttle a once in a century windfall from iron ore. I thought Howard did that by giving the windfall away via middle class welfare.

I am amused by your obsession with poor workers but I as a CSA working for NSW Trains, post retirement manage to pull in $100K each year. The poor workers manage to have enough dosh to throw around on houses, new cars and endless household appliance, not to forget optional items like boats, jet skis etc.

I know there are folks doing it tough living on the pension, but the majority are not. Having a decent education does greatly enhance your job and income prospects. Too much doom and gloom Don.  I know Adelaide is a basket case but NSW aint like it.
Gillard scrapped the Rudd-initiated Minerals Resource Rent Tax which was designed to capture some of the huge windfall that iron ore was experiencing at that time. Some people interpret her installation as partly a coup initiated by the mining industry.

You were extremely lucky to have hit the jackpot with superannuation and/or pension - I bet the job you held for SRA or Sydney Trains doesn't exist any longer. You seem to be saying "I'm alright Jack", but what about the younger generation having to secure their own piece of the Aussie dream?

So NSW is doing well, so glad to hear it. I wouldn't live in that overpriced bung-hole Sydney if you paid me a fortune.
don_dunstan
You totally misread my post Don. I stated that I am presently, post retirement, aged 72, working as a CSA. Post retirement I also did an 18 month stint with a major bank. However, that is another story. My actual career, pre-retirement, was totally unrelated to the type of work I am presently doing, but I was willing to take on rail work just to have a supplementary income to top up my defined benefit super which I took as a lump sum.

The lump sum cash is currently receiving very little income due to the galahs running the economy at the moment;
but yes I am currently pulling $100K PA working for NSW Trains, plus super. Don, tell me, what other country in the world you could do this at 72?

I think a lot of young people are too picky on the type of work they want and have an over inflated view of their abilities. Hence they are basically unemployable. Also, from my observation of young people on my rail job, a lot of them are out right fruit cakes.
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
You totally misread my post Don. I stated that I am presently, post retirement, aged 72, working as a CSA. Post retirement I also did an 18 month stint with a major bank. However, that is another story. My actual career, pre-retirement, was totally unrelated to the type of work I am presently doing, but I was willing to take on rail work just to have a supplementary income to top up my defined benefit super which I took as a lump sum.

The lump sum cash is currently receiving very little income due to the galahs running the economy at the moment;
but yes I am currently pulling $100K PA working for NSW Trains, plus super. Don, tell me, what other country in the world you could do this at 72?

I think a lot of young people are too picky on the type of work they want and have an over inflated view of their abilities. Hence they are basically unemployable. Also, from my observation of young people on my rail job, a lot of them are out right fruit cakes.
nswtrains
nswtrains: You are a very, very lucky bloke - the exception rather than the rule.

You obviously have either skills or networks that keep you employable; I once knew someone who was given a redundancy under Kennett in Victoria in the last round of Met redundancies in the late 90's and a few years later he was being begged to return because they needed him back at the Metrol train control. He went back on his own terms and on bigger money; you are obviously someone who has something to offer Sydney Trains or they wouldn't consider you at that age (just being frank here). I can't think of anyone I know at retirement age who is still in demand to that extent; generally once you're fifty that's the finish of being able to find work, no employer will touch you regardless of what skills or experience you have.

You also mention defined benefit; this is definitely another relic of the past that future generations will never experience. Defined benefits are sending city councils and state governments broke in the USA, so much so that they've had to legislate them out of existence and cut them down for existing recipients. I doubt if the interest you earn on your lump sum is going to go up any time soon - super-low interest rates are a global thing now.
  Aaron Minister for Railways

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Don, it’s not even about sharing the pork, clowns like Rex just need to understand that heavy industry in general and heavy industry within the military does what is operationally convenient and expedient.

You perform the maintenance where the asset is required, not half continent away, especially when the journey is undertaken at shopping speeds.
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

@DonDunstan Yes Jacqui Lambie no problems. Pauline Hanson shake things up. Do us a favour Don. She has said very little of substance. You allude to other polticians being racist but ignore one big one. Ms Hanson. Because she has said a couple of things in the pretence of supporting the little person it does not absolve her of the vile things she has said.

You forget she was part of the Liberal party machine before they threw her trifling behind out because she was too racist.

Yeah an ornament to Parliament. NOT

Michael
Yeah see you need to be more forgiving of people, Michael.

Namaste.
don_dunstan
I admire you attempt at humour, Nice Try. You are joking, right?


Michael
  Groundrelay Chief Commissioner

Location: Surrounded by Trolls!
So Michael, horrible old bigot Pauline was completely wrong when she argued against the abolition of a $4 billion vocational educational fund the other day. Because anything that Pauline says is wrong, right?
don_dunstan
If only if she could formulate an 'argument'  Laughing
She does react against the odd Coalition policy and all Labor ones but almost always falls in behind her former party, especially if they throw her a dog-whistler bone.

I'll put this to you again, compare the legislative records of both parties, particularly the differences. You might then appreciate why there are Liberal Party electorates that will never go any other way.
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
Don, it’s not even about sharing the pork, clowns like Rex just need to understand that heavy industry in general and heavy industry within the military does what is operationally convenient and expedient.

You perform the maintenance where the asset is required, not half continent away, especially when the journey is undertaken at shopping speeds.
Aaron
Aaron, but you know as well as I do that that at the end of the day it's just pork. If we were really serious about the submarines we would have got an off-the-shelf or reconditioned American nuclear one, it would have been tens of billions of dollars cheaper and frankly I think with a nationalist President in office we need to show clear commitment to ANZUS. Replicating those supply chains for the manufacturing of submarines is not a good use of precious taxpayer resources in my opinion - you know where I'm coming from we've discussed this before.

Anyway the French-led consortium themselves let the cat out of the bag recently with a tweet confirming it will not be at Osborne so it sounds like the decision has already been made. I didn't realise until recently that the entire fleet is based at Fremantle, why not have the deep maintenance there? It will save a whole lot of redundant trips the submarines will have to make to and from Perth just to get an oil change. We have to share our pork with WA, now, come on be fair!
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
Don, it’s not even about sharing the pork, clowns like Rex just need to understand that heavy industry in general and heavy industry within the military does what is operationally convenient and expedient.

You perform the maintenance where the asset is required, not half continent away, especially when the journey is undertaken at shopping speeds.
Aaron, but you know as well as I do that that at the end of the day it's just pork. If we were really serious about the submarines we would have got an off-the-shelf or reconditioned American nuclear one, it would have been tens of billions of dollars cheaper and frankly I think with a nationalist President in office we need to show clear commitment to ANZUS. Replicating those supply chains for the manufacturing of submarines is not a good use of precious taxpayer resources in my opinion - you know where I'm coming from we've discussed this before.

Anyway the French-led consortium themselves let the cat out of the bag recently with a tweet confirming it will not be at Osborne so it sounds like the decision has already been made. I didn't realise until recently that the entire fleet is based at Fremantle, why not have the deep maintenance there? It will save a whole lot of redundant trips the submarines will have to make to and from Perth just to get an oil change. We have to share our pork with WA, now, come on be fair!
don_dunstan
We Shouldn't Even be considering continuing our alliance with the USA. We have literally been their lapdog for the past 70 years, blindly following them into whatever country they mess up next for not falling in line with them. The Alliance with the United States has been an overly costly affair, economically and in human lives.
What good since the second world war has it brought to us? That treaty is well past its use-by date.
and no, don't say communist takeover and domino effect as that was a load of political hysteria.

Submarines? Yes, they are getting old, but still not that old in the grand scheme of things militarily. A Refurb and refit would be cheeper and more cost effective if you ask me. We don't even need a larger military, we just have used it to follow and back the yanks. No ANZUS = No need for new submarines. I you need more subs just by a second hand one and refurb it locally, cheeper by miles to do so.
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
So Michael, horrible old bigot Pauline was completely wrong when she argued against the abolition of a $4 billion vocational educational fund the other day. Because anything that Pauline says is wrong, right?
If only if she could formulate an 'argument'  Laughing
She does react against the odd Coalition policy and all Labor ones but almost always falls in behind her former party, especially if they throw her a dog-whistler bone.

I'll put this to you again, compare the legislative records of both parties, particularly the differences. You might then appreciate why there are Liberal Party electorates that will never go any other way.
Groundrelay
Alright I admit that she's a shocker, not really media savvy at all. A sincere person but she is not nearly as suited for the job as more polished independents like Jacqui Lambie and probably there's something about her that's incapable of actually leading a political party anyway. SOME things that she's voted for have made a critical difference - if you look at her Facebook page now and then (as I do) you'll see that she travels a lot through outback Queensland and talks to lots of different people including the Aboriginal community and occasionally manages to get things done by hassling Frydenburg and ScoMo in person.

Michael is going to go crook at me for saying this but Pauline's sincerity wins me over, sorry but I think she's totally dedicated to what she's doing for the benefit of her constituency and that's a good thing to see. Compare that to some of the nameless oil/gas/mining ex-politician shills from the Liberal/Labor Party, not to mention Andrew Robb, Paul Keating and Bob Carr. I really couldn't see Pauline being employed in any lobbying after politics, she's stood on too many feet while there.
  nswtrains Chief Commissioner

You totally misread my post Don. I stated that I am presently, post retirement, aged 72, working as a CSA. Post retirement I also did an 18 month stint with a major bank. However, that is another story. My actual career, pre-retirement, was totally unrelated to the type of work I am presently doing, but I was willing to take on rail work just to have a supplementary income to top up my defined benefit super which I took as a lump sum.

The lump sum cash is currently receiving very little income due to the galahs running the economy at the moment;
but yes I am currently pulling $100K PA working for NSW Trains, plus super. Don, tell me, what other country in the world you could do this at 72?

I think a lot of young people are too picky on the type of work they want and have an over inflated view of their abilities. Hence they are basically unemployable. Also, from my observation of young people on my rail job, a lot of them are out right fruit cakes.
nswtrains: You are a very, very lucky bloke - the exception rather than the rule.

You obviously have either skills or networks that keep you employable; I once knew someone who was given a redundancy under Kennett in Victoria in the last round of Met redundancies in the late 90's and a few years later he was being begged to return because they needed him back at the Metrol train control. He went back on his own terms and on bigger money; you are obviously someone who has something to offer Sydney Trains or they wouldn't consider you at that age (just being frank here). I can't think of anyone I know at retirement age who is still in demand to that extent; generally once you're fifty that's the finish of being able to find work, no employer will touch you regardless of what skills or experience you have.

You also mention defined benefit; this is definitely another relic of the past that future generations will never experience. Defined benefits are sending city councils and state governments broke in the USA, so much so that they've had to legislate them out of existence and cut them down for existing recipients. I doubt if the interest you earn on your lump sum is going to go up any time soon - super-low interest rates are a global thing now.
don_dunstan
No Don. No conspiracies. Went through the selection process for jobs advertised in the press. Anybody could apply. Out of the 2000 who applied only 20 jobs offered.
  Mr. Lane Chief Commissioner

The tech entrepreneur and multi-millionaire blames the deterioration of Australian manufacturing output on what he calls an ancient education system where overachieving students are pushed into medicine and law while participation in electrical engineering and computer science dwindles.
don_dunstan
I work in IT and this is 100% spot on. Australian's don't want to work in engineering fields, they want to do fluffy "social" professions like Law, Management Consulting and Recruitment.

Go to any IT company today...Management and HR are white, IT techs are a mix of local Chinese and the odd white dude or Arab guy, the programming team is about 80% Indian with Permanent Residency or Visa with the rest being Pilipino and 1 or 2 Eastern Euro guys. QA Team...100% Indian.

Not saying its bad...it works pretty well. But local citizens are cutting themselves out of all of these jobs, instead getting Arts degrees so they can work as baristas.
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
No Don. No conspiracies. Went through the selection process for jobs advertised in the press. Anybody could apply. Out of the 2000 who applied only 20 jobs offered.
nswtrains
So you're getting $100,000 p/a working in a low-skill customer service for Sydney Trains? I'm sorry but there's no way you should be getting paid that much for that kind of job. And you managed to get that job competing with 2,000 other applicants - at your age there's no way anyone in the private sector would touch you with a barge pole. Did you actually have any experience in the role or special skills, is that why you managed to beat 2,000 other applicants?
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
The tech entrepreneur and multi-millionaire blames the deterioration of Australian manufacturing output on what he calls an ancient education system where overachieving students are pushed into medicine and law while participation in electrical engineering and computer science dwindles.
I work in IT and this is 100% spot on. Australian's don't want to work in engineering fields, they want to do fluffy "social" professions like Law, Management Consulting and Recruitment.

Go to any IT company today...Management and HR are white, IT techs are a mix of local Chinese and the odd white dude or Arab guy, the programming team is about 80% Indian with Permanent Residency or Visa with the rest being Pilipino and 1 or 2 Eastern Euro guys. QA Team...100% Indian.

Not saying its bad...it works pretty well. But local citizens are cutting themselves out of all of these jobs, instead getting Arts degrees so they can work as baristas.
Mr. Lane
One of my friends is an IT manager and he says the number one consideration in IT is cost and for that reason they always pick 'skilled visa' applicants over locals and that local graduates aren't even considered by many employers.

He was a project manager on designing a new IT network for a large South Australian utility recently and he wasn't given any choice but a team that was entirely comprised of Pakistanis. He said they were lazy, insolent and didn't obey direct orders - they also spent every spare minute Skyping family back home or working on their own personal work during their employer's time.

My friend went to his boss to complain and was told "no negotiation, this is the team you've got to deliver the project with and we're not getting Australians because they insist on working for award". So he quit because he said he just couldn't get those people to do any actual work.

Like hospitality its become one of those industries where foreign labour is preferred by many employers because they can underpay them and exploit them much more easily than Australians - however I think in that instance it sounded like they were getting what they paid for (ie nothing).
  Mr. Lane Chief Commissioner

Don, it’s not even about sharing the pork, clowns like Rex just need to understand that heavy industry in general and heavy industry within the military does what is operationally convenient and expedient.

You perform the maintenance where the asset is required, not half continent away, especially when the journey is undertaken at shopping speeds.

Anyway the French-led consortium themselves let the cat out of the bag recently with a tweet confirming it will not be at Osborne so it sounds like the decision has already been made. I didn't realise until recently that the entire fleet is based at Fremantle, why not have the deep maintenance there? It will save a whole lot of redundant trips the submarines will have to make to and from Perth just to get an oil change. We have to share our pork with WA, now, come on be fair!

Submarines? Yes, they are getting old, but still not that old in the grand scheme of things militarily. A Refurb and refit would be cheeper and more cost effective if you ask me. We don't even need a larger military, we just have used it to follow and back the yanks. No ANZUS = No need for new submarines. I you need more subs just by a second hand one and refurb it locally, cheeper by miles to do so.
Dangersdan707

The Collins will be getting a second refit as part of a life extension program that is required to see them out to 2035 and beyond. By the time each hull is decommissioned they will be around 40 years old, so all you are doing is buying time to plug the gap between Collins and the Barracuda, its not a permeant solution.


They should have begun a submarine program right after the last Collins was commissioned and now we would be 10 years ahead of where we are and not have to worry about an expensive refit to a 30 year old design.


On the topic of not needing a larger military...if you want a more independent foreign policy, you will need a larger military. As well as doubling the size of the sub fleet from 6 to 12 by ~2050 they should also be looking to double the size of surface combatant fleet to around 24 over the same timeframe. Australia is a maritime nation with long trading routes and we totally rely on the US to keep them safe. If we start withdrawing from alignment with the US, we need to start taking more responsibility.
  Mr. Lane Chief Commissioner

The tech entrepreneur and multi-millionaire blames the deterioration of Australian manufacturing output on what he calls an ancient education system where overachieving students are pushed into medicine and law while participation in electrical engineering and computer science dwindles.
I work in IT and this is 100% spot on. Australian's don't want to work in engineering fields, they want to do fluffy "social" professions like Law, Management Consulting and Recruitment.

Go to any IT company today...Management and HR are white, IT techs are a mix of local Chinese and the odd white dude or Arab guy, the programming team is about 80% Indian with Permanent Residency or Visa with the rest being Pilipino and 1 or 2 Eastern Euro guys. QA Team...100% Indian.

Not saying its bad...it works pretty well. But local citizens are cutting themselves out of all of these jobs, instead getting Arts degrees so they can work as baristas.
One of my friends is an IT manager and he says the number one consideration in IT is cost and for that reason they always pick 'skilled visa' applicants over locals and that local graduates aren't even considered by many employers.

He was a project manager on designing a new IT network for a large South Australian utility recently and he wasn't given any choice but a team that was entirely comprised of Pakistanis. He said they were lazy, insolent and didn't obey direct orders - they also spent every spare minute Skyping family back home or working on their own personal work during their employer's time.

My friend went to his boss to complain and was told "no negotiation, this is the team you've got to deliver the project with and we're not getting Australians because they insist on working for award". So he quit because he said he just couldn't get those people to do any actual work.

Like hospitality its become one of those industries where foreign labour is preferred by many employers because they can underpay them and exploit them much more easily than Australians - however I think in that instance it sounded like they were getting what they paid for (ie nothing).
don_dunstan

This does not square with my experience at all. I am a lead developer of a programming team of 12 people in my current job and I do all of the first and second round interviewing (phone interview first, then first face-to-face interview).

When I post a job ad (we don't use recruiters) 95% of the applications are from permanent residents or people on Visas, 80% of them would be people from the sub-continent. The bulk are pretty average, including 99% of the few local applications.

Local workers with experience are non existent for the mid-level positions we hire for at the salary that I am authorised to offer: we can't pay 125k + super for an experienced person who has gotten lazy and hasn't updated their skills in 10 years, so they don't even apply.

Very few graduates apply and the ones that do have zero preparation for the job market and can barely string together a coherent sentence on the phone. Some of them I have called, it is as if they were not even interested in getting the position they have applied for and some I think were still in bed when I called. By contrast many foreign candidates will offer to work as unpaid interns just to get local experience under their belt. As far as I am concerned their are not undercutting locals, because the locals don't want the paid work.

The quality of some of the Indian and Pakistani candidates we get is very high and these are the candidates I go for. Some speak and write better English than the locals, come with more relevant and up to date skills and are keen to learn on the job. I have rarely had issues with Indian and Pakistani workers slackening off...that is more likely to be the Aussies, Filipinos and Chinese.

As a leader you have to put in some effort as well getting familiar with your staff and encouraging them. Does your friend ever try to just have casual conversations with his staff? Get on the topic of cricket or ask them what they think of recent Pakistan-India-China relations? Don't just tell them what to do, ask for their input and opinions, make their contributions feel valued...etc

Do we end up paying lower wages because we have access to imported labour? Yes. Would the business be viable if we were forced to hire locals? No.

Would we hire more locals if more graduates were available that had relevant skills? Yes. Are locals not doing computer sciences because they feel their job prospects will be undercut by imported labour...maybe, but I doubt it.
  Graham4405 Minister for Railways

Location: Dalby Qld
my defined benefit super which I took as a lump sum. The lump sum cash is currently receiving very little income due to the galahs running the economy at the moment.
nswtrains
My defined benefit became an accumulation account when I retired and is doing very well at ~10%pa. You must have the wrong superannuation fund or financial adviser! With both my wife (never worked and has no super) and myself on the pension with a bit of a top up out of a super pension account, my meagre superannuation balance continues to grow.
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
...

Do we end up paying lower wages because we have access to imported labour? Yes. Would the business be viable if we were forced to hire locals? No.

...
Mr. Lane
My mate was saying this was the sole consideration. At one stage he even tried to get one of his 'skilled visa' subordinates sacked for being caught red-handed coding for someone else's project while he was at work but it was impossible, he was repeatedly told "this is what you've got to work with" so he eventually left and is managing another project with a more balanced workforce now.

The cost of the people they're employing is pretty much the only consideration for a lot of employers and now that they're free to choose cheaper foreign labour they're doing that in droves. But apparently you only get what you pay for.
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

@DonDunstan She went to visit indigenous people. I bet her first line was "im not racist but" If you mean Jacqui Lambie is polished because she can string a coherent sentence together, then  yes Ma Lambie is polished. Ms Hanson is been in and out of Parliament since 1994 and 90% of the time she has been whinging about race. Ms Lambie in her much shorter time has achieved much more for her state.

I have the most respect for Ms Lambie I have none for that bigoted hack Hanson. Hanson is a honest bigot and racist.

Michael
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
Michael is going to go crook at me for saying this but Pauline's sincerity wins me over,
"don_dunstan"
Sincerity is nothing on its own.  Con men and fraudsters sincerely want to get rich; the Ku Klux Klan sincerely beilieves in white supremacy, and one could go on.
mejhammers1 has it right - Hanson is a sincere bigot and racist.
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
Don, it’s not even about sharing the pork, clowns like Rex just need to understand that heavy industry in general and heavy industry within the military does what is operationally convenient and expedient.

You perform the maintenance where the asset is required, not half continent away, especially when the journey is undertaken at shopping speeds.

Anyway the French-led consortium themselves let the cat out of the bag recently with a tweet confirming it will not be at Osborne so it sounds like the decision has already been made. I didn't realise until recently that the entire fleet is based at Fremantle, why not have the deep maintenance there? It will save a whole lot of redundant trips the submarines will have to make to and from Perth just to get an oil change. We have to share our pork with WA, now, come on be fair!

Submarines? Yes, they are getting old, but still not that old in the grand scheme of things militarily. A Refurb and refit would be cheeper and more cost effective if you ask me. We don't even need a larger military, we just have used it to follow and back the yanks. No ANZUS = No need for new submarines. I you need more subs just by a second hand one and refurb it locally, cheeper by miles to do so.

The Collins will be getting a second refit as part of a life extension program that is required to see them out to 2035 and beyond. By the time each hull is decommissioned they will be around 40 years old, so all you are doing is buying time to plug the gap between Collins and the Barracuda, its not a permeant solution.


They should have begun a submarine program right after the last Collins was commissioned and now we would be 10 years ahead of where we are and not have to worry about an expensive refit to a 30 year old design.


On the topic of not needing a larger military...if you want a more independent foreign policy, you will need a larger military. As well as doubling the size of the sub fleet from 6 to 12 by ~2050 they should also be looking to double the size of surface combatant fleet to around 24 over the same timeframe. Australia is a maritime nation with long trading routes and we totally rely on the US to keep them safe. If we start withdrawing from alignment with the US, we need to start taking more responsibility.
Mr. Lane

I'm well aware of the refit there undergoing ATM. They will ultimately need to be replaced though, however the process to do so has been just hideous.

We have not relied on the USA to keep us 'safe' or our trade routes for Years now, we just are a blind lapdog of there's that gets involved in whatever smeg fest they have created now. What good have they ever done for us aside from dragging us into near constant semgfests across the globe. I doubt that we will need a larger military than we have now.

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