High Capacity Metro Trains (HCMT) Order

 
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

15/03/16  State Government has increased the order from 37 x 7 car sets to 65 x 7 car sets with the three short listed bidders .

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  Heihachi_73 Chief Commissioner

Location: Terminating at Ringwood
7 car sets? Will they come in red or blue? Sounds like a good change from an X'Trapolis. Laughing
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
7 car sets? Will they come in red or blue? Sounds like a good change from an X'Trapolis. Laughing
Heihachi_73

This is really a large order which has me now thinking is Dandenong and Cranbourne the only corridor?  When Metro 1 is up and running where will these cars run in the western section?

They are going to need the yard back at Pakenham.  How many roads are they proposing and will Pakenham be the best location for these sets?
  ParkesHub Chief Commissioner

I believe they will also run to Sunbury.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Are these new units to replace the current rollingstock on the Dandenong Group or will they be in addition?
  I'm Barely Online Locomotive Fireman

Are these new units to replace the current rollingstock on the Dandenong Group or will they be in addition?
bevans
The existing rollingstock would be redeployed to other corridors when the new trains are delivered
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
The Comengs will, no doubt, be dumped on the poor bastards who live on the other western lines.........
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
The existing rollingstock would be redeployed to other corridors when the new trains are delivered
I'm Barely Online

Could this provide a case for extension of electrification to Bacchus Marsh or beyond with the availability of additional rolling stock?  

Would the PTV consider extending electrification to Gisborne also?
  TOQ-1 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Power Trainger
Are these new units to replace the current rollingstock on the Dandenong Group or will they be in addition?
bevans
The original order of 37 is enough to completely run all services on the Cranbourne-Pakenham Lines. The Business Case for the Melbourne Metro noted that an additional 25 would be needed once operational to run all services Sunbury-Dandenong and beyond using the new stock.

Boss, the funding for platform extensions has been included in the budget for the new trains. Rebuilt stations will have provisions for extensions built in, which will be added closer to the completion date of the tunnels. Given that these trains will most probably still be running through the loop, I can't imagine them being significantly longer until the completion of the Metro Tunnel.

Comengs are also set to be retired in 10-15 years, and the Rolling stock strategy outlines that they will be progressively replaced by additional orders of these types of trains (or at least similar). I could imagine the second order being dedicated to the Frankston line first, freeing Sandringham and Upfield to be run by Siemens, and Comengs to Werribee and Craigieburn before slowly being phased out.
  slowcoach Locomotive Driver

Although this new order of high capacity metro trains is a winner for local jobs at the 3 companies chosen for the tender process, around 800 job positions are secured until at least 2026, nevertheless many questions hang over our heads regarding the entire design of these trains.
-- The trains will be 7 carriages long with possibility of extension to 9-10 carriages following the completion of Melbourne Metro.
But how long these trains will be? Will each carriage be just as long or longer than our current X'trapolis, Comeng and Siemens carriages?
-- How many doors will each carriage have? 8? 10?
Will these doors be automatically opened by the driver or by pressing a button like in X'trapolis and Siemens?
Will these doors have flaps to cover the platform gap?
-- Will these trains have TV screens and/or onboard Wifi to give that 21st century vibe?
-- I also read that there will be NO cabs in the middle of the train like our current fleet meaning we can walk from front cab to back cab without alighting. Will there be any doors between carriages like in X'trapolis and Comeng? I'd like to see no doors between carriages at all saving money and hustle like you find in Siemens.
-- Exterior: LED Displays on the front and back of the trains (obviously) and the sides of every 2nd carriage like the X'trapolis.
Interior: Will LED Displays be fitted on each end of each carriage like X'trapolis, Siemens and Alstom Comeng or placed in the middle of a carriage like in EDI Comeng or positioned above each door like you see in London Underground, Shanghai, Hong Kong and Taipei Metros?
-- Because it's labelled high-capacity, I infer it as less seats and more standing room which means more handles and poles.
-- Will the seats be arranged 2x2 like in X'trapolis and Siemens or Side-on Metro style like in common metro trains around the world e.g. Paris, Tokyo, Hong Kong, Shanghai?
-- Will the seats have those comfortable cushions or be solid hard thick plastic? I heard the hard plastic seats are graffiti-proof meaning they are easy to clean and difficult to damage.
-- It's understood these trains can carry up to 1200-1300 passengers (standing and sitting) when full compared to 800 in our current train fleets.
I'll leave colour, shape, livery, style and vibes for the artists.
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

The existing rollingstock would be redeployed to other corridors when the new trains are delivered

Could this provide a case for extension of electrification to Bacchus Marsh or beyond with the availability of additional rolling stock?  

Would the PTV consider extending electrification to Gisborne also?
bevans
No.  PTV forward planning is understood to allow for electrification extension to Melton and possibly  Bacchus Marsh, but not beyond Sunbury .
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

Yes according to the rollingstock strategy the initial order of 37 x 7 cars has now advanced to stage 2 by bringing forward stage 2 to a total 65  x 7 car trains which is the full requirement to operate  Metro as  Melton/Sunbury through Metro tunnel to  Pakenham/Cranbourne when Metro tunnel is completed .  

Given  Metro could be completed probably by 2024 if they pulled their finger out, it suggests place a bigger order now and stretch it out over 8 years @ 8 trains a year seems pretty right .  Bigger order should get better price, and ensures on going work for at least 8 years for the successful bidder .  Stage 3 sees same tarin type progressively replace the aged Comeng fleet, plus 7 car  HCMT are designed to go up to 10 cars on Metro through lines .  So real incentive for three bidders to really sharpen their pencils as it locks in work for them for 12 - 15 years .

This approach is much better than former practice of drip feed incremental orders which ultimately cost a lot more.

Now we need a similar strategy for V/Line especially with a new geneartion high capacity  DMU train in 4 car fixed consists initially for Geelong Line and to replace the aged H car fleet .  (Off peak as 4 cars, Peak as 8 cars) .
  freightgate Minister for Railways

Location: Albury, New South Wales
This strategy is iit available online ?
  LancedDendrite Chief Commissioner

Location: Trapped in a meeting with Rhonda and Karsten
Yes it is.
  AzN_dj Chief Commissioner

Location: Along route 69
Although this new order of high capacity metro trains is a winner for local jobs at the 3 companies chosen for the tender process, around 800 job positions are secured until at least 2026, nevertheless many questions hang over our heads regarding the entire design of these trains.
-- The trains will be 7 carriages long with possibility of extension to 9-10 carriages following the completion of Melbourne Metro.
But how long these trains will be? Will each carriage be just as long or longer than our current X'trapolis, Comeng and Siemens carriages?
-- How many doors will each carriage have? 8? 10?
Will these doors be automatically opened by the driver or by pressing a button like in X'trapolis and Siemens?
Will these doors have flaps to cover the platform gap?
-- Will these trains have TV screens and/or onboard Wifi to give that 21st century vibe?
-- I also read that there will be NO cabs in the middle of the train like our current fleet meaning we can walk from front cab to back cab without alighting. Will there be any doors between carriages like in X'trapolis and Comeng? I'd like to see no doors between carriages at all saving money and hustle like you find in Siemens.
-- Exterior: LED Displays on the front and back of the trains (obviously) and the sides of every 2nd carriage like the X'trapolis.
Interior: Will LED Displays be fitted on each end of each carriage like X'trapolis, Siemens and Alstom Comeng or placed in the middle of a carriage like in EDI Comeng or positioned above each door like you see in London Underground, Shanghai, Hong Kong and Taipei Metros?
-- Because it's labelled high-capacity, I infer it as less seats and more standing room which means more handles and poles.
-- Will the seats be arranged 2x2 like in X'trapolis and Siemens or Side-on Metro style like in common metro trains around the world e.g. Paris, Tokyo, Hong Kong, Shanghai?
-- Will the seats have those comfortable cushions or be solid hard thick plastic? I heard the hard plastic seats are graffiti-proof meaning they are easy to clean and difficult to damage.
-- It's understood these trains can carry up to 1200-1300 passengers (standing and sitting) when full compared to 800 in our current train fleets.
I'll leave colour, shape, livery, style and vibes for the artists.
slowcoach

All your questions have been answered before and are in the public domain. Go look for the answers.
Except for platform gaps: Almost all stations are being rebuilt to eliminate gaps, when you think about it. There is a new set standard that has to be complied with.
  trainbrain Deputy Commissioner

The Comengs will, no doubt, be dumped on the poor bastards who live on the other western lines.........
YM-Mundrabilla
U poor bastard, I will make sure they r dumped where u r.....................
  hot-axle-box Junior Train Controller

Let's see if they repeat the biggest mistake made with rollingstock, and fit the new trains with sprung bogies.
If that happens  that will be my last little bit of faith destroyed by stupid decisions.
  Flygon Train Controller

Location: Australia
The Comengs will, no doubt, be dumped on the poor bastards who live on the other western lines.........
U poor bastard, I will make sure they r dumped where u r.....................
trainbrain
I'd rather a Comeng over an Xtrap!
  mejhammers1 Deputy Commissioner

Let's see if they repeat the biggest mistake made with rollingstock, and fit the new trains with sprung bogies.
If that happens  that will be my last little bit of faith destroyed by stupid decisions.
hot-axle-box
They will because it is cheap.

Michael
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Let's see if they repeat the biggest mistake made with rollingstock, and fit the new trains with sprung bogies.
If that happens  that will be my last little bit of faith destroyed by stupid decisions.
They will because it is cheap.

Michael
mejhammers1
Will they also have the driving position in some place so as to restrict system wide operation?
  TOQ-1 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Power Trainger
Let's see if they repeat the biggest mistake made with rollingstock, and fit the new trains with sprung bogies.
If that happens  that will be my last little bit of faith destroyed by stupid decisions.
They will because it is cheap.

Michael
Will they also have the driving position in some place so as to restrict system wide operation?
YM-Mundrabilla
It doesn't matter either way, they're only going to run on the Cranbourne/Pakenham lines until Melbourne Metro is completed and they will run on the Sunbury Line as well.
  mm42 Chief Train Controller

It would be great if the new trains had batteries that store the energy from regenerative braking.  This would then be used in acceleration after each station. A clear benefit would be a less peaky electrical demand, with a reduced need to upgrade substations to cope with a change from 6-car to 9-car trains. This would also enable more rapid acceleration. If Melbourne emulated the acceleration and dwell times of Perth's Fremantle line, there would be a 20% reduction in travel times over those currently on the Pakenham line, which would mean less delay to Vline services, and a marginally smaller train fleet to cover the same service level.

I recently drove a new Camry Hybrid from regional Victoria to Melbourne and back on about 3/4 of a tank when I was used to 1.5 tankfuls for other Camry's.  It achieved a fuel efficiency of 5.8 litres/100 km. According to a live diagram on the dash, it had regenerative braking with energy going from the wheels to the battery. It's a pity that after achieving such good technology in Australian-made cars we are about to close the industry down.  It would be great to adapt the same technology to our trains.  

While such technologies would no doubt represent cost savings over the train life cycle, it is unlikely any genuine life cycle costings would  be done, and the focus would only be on capital cost.  One can only dream.
  LancedDendrite Chief Commissioner

Location: Trapped in a meeting with Rhonda and Karsten
It would be great if the new trains had batteries that store the energy from regenerative braking.  This would then be used in acceleration after each station. A clear benefit would be a less peaky electrical demand, with a reduced need to upgrade substations to cope with a change from 6-car to 9-car trains. This would also enable more rapid acceleration. If Melbourne emulated the acceleration and dwell times of Perth's Fremantle line, there would be a 20% reduction in travel times over those currently on the Pakenham line, which would mean less delay to Vline services, and a marginally smaller train fleet to cover the same service level.
mm42
You don't need batteries for regenerative braking on electric trains, they can just feed the power back to the traction substation. Well established practice.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Let's see if they repeat the biggest mistake made with rollingstock, and fit the new trains with sprung bogies.
If that happens  that will be my last little bit of faith destroyed by stupid decisions.
They will because it is cheap.

Michael
Will they also have the driving position in some place so as to restrict system wide operation?
It doesn't matter either way, they're only going to run on the Cranbourne/Pakenham lines until Melbourne Metro is completed and they will run on the Sunbury Line as well.
TOQ-1
I disagree - standardisation of equipment wherever possible and flexibility of operation are paramount. Why paint yourself into a corner if you don't have too? That's what Bayside and Hillside did with the previously systemwide available Comengs.
Look at the Taits and the swing door suburban stock they could mix and match and run anywhere.

Sadly thinking these days seems to be 'straight railed' to a very great degree.
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
Capacity to be driver-less? I'm sure it's being thought-of.

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