High Capacity Metro Trains (HCMT) Order

 
  712M Chief Commissioner

Let's see if they repeat the biggest mistake made with rollingstock, and fit the new trains with sprung bogies.
If that happens  that will be my last little bit of faith destroyed by stupid decisions.
They will because it is cheap.

Michael
Will they also have the driving position in some place so as to restrict system wide operation?
It doesn't matter either way, they're only going to run on the Cranbourne/Pakenham lines until Melbourne Metro is completed and they will run on the Sunbury Line as well.
TOQ-1
There is a likelihood that more sets will be ordered to run on other lines to provide further capacity boosts and/or replace the oldest of the Comeng trains.

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  steve195 Train Controller

The evolution consortium (Downer EDI, Changchun, Plenary..) have won the contract to build the 65 sets. 60% local content. First train to begin testing just in time for the state election in November 2018, with the order complete by the time metro opens in 2026.
Government propaganda video


https://youtu.be/imwSqb4wpQE


Nine 6 car X-traps are also being ordered to keep Alstom Ballarat ticking over for a few more years.
  Myrtone Chief Commissioner

Location: North Carlton, Melbourne, Victoria
It would be great if the new trains had batteries that store the energy from regenerative braking.  This would then be used in acceleration after each station. A clear benefit would be a less peaky electrical demand, with a reduced need to upgrade substations to cope with a change from 6-car to 9-car trains. This would also enable more rapid acceleration. If Melbourne emulated the acceleration and dwell times of Perth's Fremantle line, there would be a 20% reduction in travel times over those currently on the Pakenham line, which would mean less delay to Vline services, and a marginally smaller train fleet to cover the same service level.

I recently drove a new Camry Hybrid from regional Victoria to Melbourne and back on about 3/4 of a tank when I was used to 1.5 tankfuls for other Camry's.  It achieved a fuel efficiency of 5.8 litres/100 km. According to a live diagram on the dash, it had regenerative braking with energy going from the wheels to the battery. It's a pity that after achieving such good technology in Australian-made cars we are about to close the industry down.  It would be great to adapt the same technology to our trains.  

While such technologies would no doubt represent cost savings over the train life cycle, it is unlikely any genuine life cycle costings would  be done, and the focus would only be on capital cost.  One can only dream.
mm42

But batteries only have a limited lifetime, having to be repeatedly replaced over the lifetime of a vehicle, so the cost of replacing batteries is an important consideration, and considerable waste material is produced during manufacture and disposal of batteries. One could use the regenerative braking to power accessories.
But considerable amounts of power could be saved if the trains were lighter and slower and didn't have non-essential electrical gadgets such as air-conditioning.
  TheMeddlingMonk Deputy Commissioner

Location: The Time Vortex near Melbourne, Australia
But batteries only have a limited lifetime, having to be repeatedly replaced over the lifetime of a vehicle, so the cost of replacing batteries is an important consideration, and considerable waste material is produced during manufacture and disposal of batteries. One could use the regenerative braking to power accessories.
But considerable amounts of power could be saved if the trains were lighter and slower and didn't have non-essential electrical gadgets such as air-conditioning.
Myrtone
You'd still need batteries if you used the energy to power accessories. The accessories are not just going to draw power when the train is braking; if you don't store that energy somewhere, it's going to get lost as heat. You cannot escape batteries if you're looking to harvest intermittent energy sources.

As for air-conditioning being non-essential, try travelling on an overloaded train on the Dandenong line in the peak of summer and then tell me it's not essential. That many people crammed into such a small space creates a hot, stuffy and unpleasant atmosphere. People would end up just driving their cars if there wasn't A/C in summer and heating in winter.
  Madjikthise Assistant Commissioner

The evolution consortium (Downer EDI, Changchun, Plenary..) have won the contract to build the 65 sets. 60% local content. First train to begin testing just in time for the state election in November 2018, with the order complete by the time metro opens in 2026.
Government propaganda video


https://youtu.be/imwSqb4wpQE


Nine 6 car X-traps are also being ordered to keep Alstom Ballarat ticking over for a few more years.
steve195
Comparing the new trains to x-traps which don't run on the lines the new trains will run on.
Shrinking the x-trap carriages in the comparison footage to about the size of buses to make the new trains look bigger than they will actually be.
The new trains look like the bastard child of an x-trap and vlocity.
Sure is propaganda.
  Crossover Train Controller

Location: St. Albans Victoria
The evolution consortium (Downer EDI, Changchun, Plenary..) have won the contract to build the 65 sets. 60% local content. First train to begin testing just in time for the state election in November 2018, with the order complete by the time metro opens in 2026.
Government propaganda video


https://youtu.be/imwSqb4wpQE


Nine 6 car X-traps are also being ordered to keep Alstom Ballarat ticking over for a few more years.
Comparing the new trains to x-traps which don't run on the lines the new trains will run on.
Shrinking the x-trap carriages in the comparison footage to about the size of buses to make the new trains look bigger than they will actually be.
The new trains look like the bastard child of an x-trap and vlocity.
Sure is propaganda.
Madjikthise
Lets see the product before we do get too critical shall we ?
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
The evolution consortium (Downer EDI, Changchun, Plenary..) have won the contract to build the 65 sets. 60% local content. First train to begin testing just in time for the state election in November 2018, with the order complete by the time metro opens in 2026.
Government propaganda video


https://youtu.be/imwSqb4wpQE


Nine 6 car X-traps are also being ordered to keep Alstom Ballarat ticking over for a few more years.
Comparing the new trains to x-traps which don't run on the lines the new trains will run on.
Shrinking the x-trap carriages in the comparison footage to about the size of buses to make the new trains look bigger than they will actually be.
The new trains look like the bastard child of an x-trap and vlocity.
Sure is propaganda.
Madjikthise
Agreed, I hope that this is not the actual design.
  Boss Chief Commissioner

Location: Caulfield Line
Does anyone have the technical specs for these "new" trains?

Are the carriages actually the same size offs the existing X-traps?
  electric Chief Train Controller

Location: Ist mir egal
I'm surprised Downer EDI got the job - wasn't the last thing they did for Melbourne a Comeng refurb, over 10 years ago?
Has anyone heard why they might have won the tender over Bombardier or the others?

Does Downer EDI have an existing design which would likely be modified to suit Melbourne, or will we be seeing something new?
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
I'm surprised Downer EDI got the job - wasn't the last thing they did for Melbourne a Comeng refurb, over 10 years ago?
Has anyone heard why they might have won the tender over Bombardier or the others?

Does Downer EDI have an existing design which would likely be modified to suit Melbourne, or will we be seeing something new?
electric
It appears that Downer EDI took sides with Changchun Railway Vehicles who presumably will be building the trains.
  electric Chief Train Controller

Location: Ist mir egal
I'm surprised Downer EDI got the job - wasn't the last thing they did for Melbourne a Comeng refurb, over 10 years ago?
Has anyone heard why they might have won the tender over Bombardier or the others?

Does Downer EDI have an existing design which would likely be modified to suit Melbourne, or will we be seeing something new?
It appears that Downer EDI took sides with Changchun Railway Vehicles who presumably will be building the trains.
railblogger
I had a look at Changchun's website - nothing there quite matches the train in the video either, so I think the question still stands - is there a predecessor which this design will be based on?
  woodford Chief Commissioner

Capacity to be driver-less? I'm sure it's being thought-of.
don_dunstan
A woodford opinion, you have been warned,

One can only have driverless rolling stock if the network can have absolutely NO obstructions AT ALL. This means no level crossings and passengers NOT obstructing the train in any way, like for instance holding the doors open.

The problem with such automation is it cannot handle any issue that its not designed to handle. The commercial aviation industry is now learning this the VERY hard way, with accidents due to such problems with automation seriously on the rise.

woodford
  Bogong Chief Commissioner

Location: Essendon Aerodrome circa 1980
Capacity to be driver-less? I'm sure it's being thought-of.
A woodford opinion, you have been warned,

One can only have driverless rolling stock if the network can have absolutely NO obstructions AT ALL. This means no level crossings and passengers NOT obstructing the train in any way, like for instance holding the doors open.

The problem with such automation is it cannot handle any issue that its not designed to handle. The commercial aviation industry is now learning this the VERY hard way, with accidents due to such problems with automation seriously on the rise.

woodford
woodford
Really? I took a few rides on DLR a couple of months ago and the trains seemed to work just fine without drivers or any other staff. Not bad considering it was built 30 years ago before todays improved technology was available.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

I'm surprised Downer EDI got the job - wasn't the last thing they did for Melbourne a Comeng refurb, over 10 years ago?
Has anyone heard why they might have won the tender over Bombardier or the others?

Does Downer EDI have an existing design which would likely be modified to suit Melbourne, or will we be seeing something new?
electric

The hunter railcar could be what they are basing it off or maybe the perth b series. I wonder why the Chinese are interested if 60% of the manufacturing is supposed to be happening in Australia.
  LancedDendrite Chief Commissioner

Location: Trapped in a meeting with Rhonda and Karsten
The real question is: what nickname are the new HCMT EMUs going to get? 'Evos'? (in reference to the Evolution Rail consortium)

I'm surprised Downer EDI got the job - wasn't the last thing they did for Melbourne a Comeng refurb, over 10 years ago?
Has anyone heard why they might have won the tender over Bombardier or the others?
electric
Downer Rail at Newport has been doing a lot of maintenance contracts lately. They're in the middle of a big facility refurbishment project at the moment, which they're going to be capitalising on for the HCMT contract.

The reason they will have won is price, plus a whole lot of political button-pushing. I quote:

Respondents were required to demonstrate how they will boost local employment, training and investment through the delivery of new trains for Melbourne.
ICN

Melbourne's western suburbs are being hit by the loss of Toyota's Altona assembly plant and the closure of BAE Systems' shipyard in Williamstown. Marketing 'Cheap Trains, Some Assembly Required' is easier when you're going to save jobs at the same time.
Oh, and CRRC is going to set up a regional HQ in Melbourne as part of the deal too.

As for other bidders, Alstom got the consolation prize this time by being given the funds to vomit forth 9 more X'Traps from their Ballarat North 'shops, taking them through to 2019 when the next major Victorian train contract is awarded (an interurban commuter diesel train for V/Line).

Bombardier Dandenong's likely going to be building more E class trams in the foreseeable future via an additional order extension on top of the 50 + 20 they're doing at the moment. It's pretty much inevitable given how much of the existing tram fleet is utterly noncompliant with Disability Discrimination Act requirements.

The hunter railcar could be what they are basing it off or maybe the perth b series. I wonder why the Chinese are interested if 60% of the manufacturing is supposed to be happening in Australia.
simstrain
I'm not sure what the design will be building upon exactly, but it won't be the TransPerth B series (a Bombardier product) or the Hunter Railcar DMU. The design itself would most likely be based on something that a subsidiary of CRRC has built before.

The Chinese are interested because they want to do business everywhere. Winning a contract in a country like Australia also comes with a bit of prestige, too.
  tazzer96 Deputy Commissioner


The hunter railcar could be what they are basing it off or maybe the perth b series. I wonder why the Chinese are interested if 60% of the manufacturing is supposed to be happening in Australia.
simstrain
Unlikely, while the basic Hunter DMU platform could be easily converted for electric operation.  It has the issue of currently not having any intermediate cars, and only two doors. The hunter railcar should have been pushed for more orders in NSW. (so the hunter line was services only by hunter sets, leaving endeavours for use elsewhere) and an intermediate car designed so it could be pushed in Victoria, ideally for albury services as a 4 car unit. The hunter railcar is also very long

B series is now an old design, and while that Platform is heavily used. (can't remember what the base model is called, but its used on the A-city trains in adelaide, the IMU160/SMU260 series in QLD).  It also has the issue of only two doors.  


As long as they has good acceleration, good braking (has to have regenerative) and at least 3 decent sized doors per 24m carriage.
  tazzer96 Deputy Commissioner

Depending upon how the contract is stipulated.  Manufacturing in australia could simply mean welding prefabricated sheets of metal together.  Everything might be built in china, but if everything is put together here, that could be good enough.
  Myrtone Chief Commissioner

Location: North Carlton, Melbourne, Victoria
You'd still need batteries if you used the energy to power accessories. The accessories are not just going to draw power when the train is braking; if you don't store that energy somewhere, it's going to get lost as heat. You cannot escape batteries if you're looking to harvest intermittent energy sources.
TheMeddlingMonk


If it's only being stored for a short time, just to power accessories when stationary, then it only needs to be stored in capacitors.

As for air-conditioning being non-essential, try travelling on an overloaded train on the Dandenong line in the peak of summer and then tell me it's not essential. That many people crammed into such a small space creates a hot, stuffy and unpleasant atmosphere. People would end up just driving their cars if there wasn't A/C in summer and heating in winter.
TheMeddlingMonk


But our pre-1980 trains didn't have them, and was that a problem. Our first trains with air-conditioning were introduced decades after electrification, let alone our first railway. Was that a problem the whole time? What if people just dressed warmly in winter, then you wouldn't need heating in winter. Warmer dressing is apparently considered smarter, for example some schools require students to wear blazers home whatever the weather.
Fact is that people can still survive in a hot, stuffy and unpleasant atmosphere and if they didn't, it would be unacceptable to wear blazers on the hottest days. But maybe trains shouldn't be overloaded in the first place.
  tazzer96 Deputy Commissioner

Air-conditioning, Non-essential.  What?
I would be surprised if the RBTU even allowed a train to be driven without air-con fitted.

A few people here need a quick lesson is how electricity works.  Trains draw power all the time.  If the train and system is built to have regenerative braking, then the electric motors act as a generator and send the electricity back into the network for use elsewhere. (either on the rail network, or the general grid).
  Myrtone Chief Commissioner

Location: North Carlton, Melbourne, Victoria
Trains without air-conditioning have been allowed for most of the time we've had railways.
  tazzer96 Deputy Commissioner

But times change.  For the first centuary of railway travel it was widely accepted that loss of life while working on the railways was a normal thing.
  TheMeddlingMonk Deputy Commissioner

Location: The Time Vortex near Melbourne, Australia
A few people here need a quick lesson is how electricity works.  Trains draw power all the time.  If the train and system is built to have regenerative braking, then the electric motors act as a generator and send the electricity back into the network for use elsewhere. (either on the rail network, or the general grid).
tazzer96
Ah, yes, I had forgotten about the possibility of feeding back into the network.

But our pre-1980 trains didn't have them, and was that a problem. Our first trains with air-conditioning were introduced decades after electrification, let alone our first railway. Was that a problem the whole time? What if people just dressed warmly in winter, then you wouldn't need heating in winter. Warmer dressing is apparently considered smarter, for example some schools require students to wear blazers home whatever the weather.
Fact is that people can still survive in a hot, stuffy and unpleasant atmosphere and if they didn't, it would be unacceptable to wear blazers on the hottest days. But maybe trains shouldn't be overloaded in the first place.
Myrtone
Yes, people can survive cold or hot weather. However, there is a difference between, say, the 1960s/1970s and now.

According to the ABS (http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/abs@.nsf/Lookup/4102.0Main+Features40July+2013) between 1955 and 2013 the number of cars per 1000 people has more than tripled. That means that prior to air conditioning on trains, a lot more people would have been forced to use trains to get around. Nowdays vehicles are a lot more accessible and so having a lack of A/C on trains will result in more people driving instead.

Train patronage has almost doubled since 2000, too: https://chartingtransport.com/2010/11/13/public-transport-patronage-trends/

Yes, trains shouldn't be overloaded in the first place. But there is no quick fix to that.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
Trains without air-conditioning have been allowed for most of the time we've had railways.
Myrtone

Imagine the headlines if the Herald-Sun heard the new fleet omitted A/C...but you can open a window or dress warmly depending on the season...

A/C also makes for a quieter and cleaner ride as the cars are sealed to the outside environment...never mind that the first Air-con carriage to operate in Victoria was over 80 years ago Exclamation

Mike.
  tazzer96 Deputy Commissioner

Trains without air-conditioning have been allowed for most of the time we've had railways.

Imagine the headlines if the Herald-Sun heard the new fleet omitted A/C...but you can open a window or dress warmly depending on the season...

A/C also makes for a quieter and cleaner ride as the cars are sealed to the outside environment...never mind that the first Air-con carriage to operate in Victoria was over 80 years ago Exclamation

Mike.
The Vinelander
You can't have newly built trains with windows that can open now either.  Idiots stick there arms out and it gets hit by a signal.   Thats another reason why A/C is a must.
  trainbrain Deputy Commissioner

great Made In China, hope the use plenty of valcrove and sticky tape

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