Future of Sydney's vintage trains unclear as 3801 tour company evicted

 
  catchpoint Assistant Commissioner

Location: At the end of a loop
Since the introduction of Trainworks a lot of the exhibits are no longer accessible.
Showtime

The "Small Exhibits" room at the old NSWRTM Thirlmere anyone?

Which was the excellent Signal and signage collection that was curated by the Booth brothers.

Where has it gone within TfNSW TW, storage, slowly being dispersed? lost? Why was it not included in the refurbishment works?

Regards,

Catchpoint

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  a6et Minister for Railways

Hello a6et and others,

Interesting how modern rail managements are generally antipathetic to rail enthusiasm. Probably part of the I know everything and I will ensure that by locking out those who may know an equal amount or more.

Some years ago I attended a lecture by a former Festiniog volunteer who said their railway had developed a series of programmes to encourage a develop new and young volunteers. This has been so successful that other UK preserved railways have adopted at least some of these programmes. One programme that Festiniog has ongoing succes with is multi skilling platform and on train volunteers in all aspects of train operation. As a result their volunteers are now sought out by the Train Operating companies due to their experience and flexibility. The fact that York Museum cannot keep up with demand for engineering apprentices is also a positive development. Hopefully those who miss out find another employee willing to give then ago.

Like a6et and others the State owned utilities once provided excellent training facilities and jobs, pretty much all gone now, especially as private business will readily poach fully trained staff but refuses point blank to any training themselves , unless there is a tax deduction and many businesses have learned to effectively scam those arrangement for profit.

Best wishes and regards, Radioman
Radioman
Radionman.  What you suggest is to easy an example for those in command positions to understand.

For those heading into Sydney by train on the main 6 tracks from Strathfield in, when you pass MacDonaldtown, and you come to what remains of the old carriage works, there is a vacant spot from a long demolished building & cannot reccolect what it was not, however over past there along the Northern edge of the facilities there is a two storied building, now done up, that building was used by country boys who came down to get apprenticeships, the railways took on 420 apprentices every year in many different areas, the skills were not just rail related but ones that applied across a vast number of industries, even motor mechanics, electrical fitters as well as general trades electricians.

They were kept on through their whole apprentice years and in that building was dorms, with different numbers of beds, a minimal amount was charged for accomodation as well as there was a canteen that was open late and at one time was open 24hrs to provide meals for the apprentices, it cost them for meals but it made opportunities that were not available in most rural locations. Each year as each graduated, some were employed by the NSWGR in areas of staff shortages within their trades.

Outside industries large and small would line up and be given the numbers of those who completed their trade courses and available for employment in the Sydney area, they could start straight off or after Christmas. Those fortunate enough to get a job back in the hometown or nearby went there, thing was that there was rarelly any of those trainees who never got job offers at the end of their training. Thing was that private industry found the training they got was better than what was provided in the private sector.

The progress of history and many industries and trades finishing means those jobs no longer exist, however one trade still exists and is still located at Eveliegh in the blacksmith shop http://www.wroughtartworks.com/aboutus.php This company still takes on apprentices and uses the old machinery at the works. The interesting aspect of this company is that they were facing being booted out of the area a few years ago, even though they had won government contracts to manufacture and replace the cast iron fencing that ran from near Circular Quay around the walkway under the bridge and to Pyrmont apparently the only company that could still to that work in Oz.

There is so much heritage still there that can be put to good use, if of course there was a will to do so.  There is also so much need in other old trade areas these days especially in heritage works, not just rail related but in areas such as historical homes and older now non operating fields of skills. As a country and we are not alone in this, we have been deskilled and have lost so many industries to overseas countries and therefore dependent on them supplying us with items that we should still be making.

Problem is that the latte set loves the old heritage buildings to show off their said interest in our history.
  catchpoint Assistant Commissioner

Location: At the end of a loop
Today's Sydney Morning Herald

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/berejiklian-takes-control-of-bays-precinct-central-to-eveleigh-20170315-guz7e3.html

Regards,

Catchpoint
  nswtrains Chief Commissioner

Since the introduction of Trainworks a lot of the exhibits are no longer accessible.

The "Small Exhibits" room at the old NSWRTM Thirlmere anyone?

Which was the excellent Signal and signage collection that was curated by the Booth brothers.

Where has it gone within TfNSW TW, storage, slowly being dispersed? lost? Why was it not included in the refurbishment works?

Regards,

Catchpoint
catchpoint
Why don't you ask the RTM before making inflammatory assumptions?
  HardWorkingMan Chief Commissioner

Location: Echuca
one thing I have noticed about most signs around any historic machinery/train/vehicle group is a lot of the signs give the technical information (eg number of pistons, horsepower, speed, year built etc) Some of these are very fancy signwritten board and others look like texta on scrap cardboard.
One thing they have in common is they assume the person reading the sign knows what the use of that particular item was, how it was restored and how it fitted into people's day to day lives.  Those assumptions are no longer valid.  There are generations in some families now who have never ridden a train. In some places they don't see them as their home town/region isn't served and with in-car entertainment they don't look out the windows on a drive. A friend's son told me about a friend who couldn't find his way from Bright to Wangarratta as by the time they left Bright he was looking at a dvd or playing a game on his games console or phone. (for those that don't know it's basically follow the same road for about 80km which turns right at a roundabout with signposts in Porepunkah so it's fairly simple)
If you look at the sign the people are stopping to read it's the one that gives them the history and usage of the item that they stop and read. They don't really care about the size of the cylinders or the hp it creates, but want to understand how it fitted into the bigger picture of life when it was a daily use item.
Also when I grew up the journey was part of the holiday whereas now the holiday starts when you step off at the final destination airport so you don't see the countryside in between to understand that wool is shorn off sheep, that milk comes out of a cow not a carton and the one that got me most recently that vegetables grow in the ground where people walk, tractors and trucks drive and birds and other animals relieve themselves.  One even thought the railways had a steriliser to put the grain wagons through between each load and that silos had seperators built-in so they new which farmer grew which grain in the silo to the individual grain.
  gordon_s1942 Chief Commissioner

Location: Central Tablelands of NSW
At one time such information about a particular Locomotive was of interest to those as they could compare it to what was current at the time but regrettably, saying how powerful and how great 3801 ran means nothing today's Joe Public.
I can also agree most under 40 years of age travel by their Thumbs today , that is by using a Tablet, SMART phone or some other devise and travel from one place to another, totally oblivious of their surroundings in between.

I must admit I am one who likes to see where they are going even when I have been that way many times before, if for nothing else but to see what has changed since I last passed through.
I guess today its a case of be thankful 'Junior' even looks however briefly at where ever they may have arrived at.
  Matthew Chief Train Controller

One thing they have in common is they assume the person reading the sign knows what the use of that particular item was, how it was restored and how it fitted into people's day to day lives.  Those assumptions are no longer valid.
HardWorkingMan

This sort of thing comes up time and time again at 'heritage' presentations I go to. But it largely gets ignored.

Why ?

The volunteer at said museum is generally an enthusiast. Enthusiasts like to know cylinders, power output, fuel consumption per hour, etc, etc. They tend to forget that not everyone is interested in how many rivets were used to put it together.

But guess who is putting the time into creating the signs?

I was involved in a discussion recently on how a small amount of Facebook advertising had an amazing response and changed the demographic of visitors. However, the 'old guard' rapidly fell back into 'grandparents taking the grandkids out for the day' thinking, totally failing to appreciate the significance of the demographoc shift we had experienced. Many visitors didn't have a grandparent in tow who could provide the social framework around the exhibits displayed.
  apw5910 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Location: Location.
One thing they have in common is they assume the person reading the sign knows what the use of that particular item was, how it was restored and how it fitted into people's day to day lives.  Those assumptions are no longer valid.

This sort of thing comes up time and time again at 'heritage' presentations I go to. But it largely gets ignored.

Why ?

The volunteer at said museum is generally an enthusiast. Enthusiasts like to know cylinders, power output, fuel consumption per hour, etc, etc. They tend to forget that not everyone is interested in how many rivets were used to put it together.

But guess who is putting the time into creating the signs?

I was involved in a discussion recently on how a small amount of Facebook advertising had an amazing response and changed the demographic of visitors. However, the 'old guard' rapidly fell back into 'grandparents taking the grandkids out for the day' thinking, totally failing to appreciate the significance of the demographoc shift we had experienced. Many visitors didn't have a grandparent in tow who could provide the social framework around the exhibits displayed.
Matthew
I'm interested in your suggestions. I'm not having a go at you, I am very concerned that the age of the people doing the work at every museum I have seen is only getting older, and the amount of junk in collections continues to grow. This can only have one outcome if younger, fitter volunteers do not become interested in doing the work, and more customers persuaded to part with their cash.

What was the Facebook advertising?
  apw5910 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Location: Location.
Following up my own post, interesting discussion here http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=39488
  Matthew Chief Train Controller


What was the Facebook advertising?
apw5910

The February 'Vintage Tramway Festival' at Loftus. The demographic statistics collected by Facebook (and also from the museum website over the same period) revealed that we got a younger market than what many people expected.

One issue I see at Loftus, and I think the same thing applies at other transport museums - is that the older members are working on things from their own youth. Old trams, old trains, old buses. They fondly remember them.
A younger person comes along and mentions they would like to see/ride/work on a vehicle from THEIR childhood and often get a very negative reaction from the older members. 'We don't want that MODERN RUBBISH' here. I have personally experienced this reaction when suggesting that some 'modern' item should be in the collection instead of being let disappear forever.

A think a big issue is that many of the keen members don't really understand their own motivations which puts them at a serious disadvantage when 'motivating' a younger member. A younger member isn't going to respond well to being told their own era is rubbish and they should worship this older one instead.


Just look at how many tram museums have and can operate the withdrawn Z1/Z2 class trams. One, not even in Victoria. What about the electric trains from the 70s now being withdrawn?. There are groups lovingly restoring 1st generation wooden bodied EMU trains. But no love for those trains now being withdrawn.

There really is a generation gap. Particularly in Sydney Tram preservation where there was no tramway for 40 years in the state. Victoria has a similar problem with no new tram design for so many years before the Z class arrived.
  LancedDendrite Chief Commissioner

Location: Gheringhap Loop Autonomous Zone
Just look at how many tram museums have and can operate the withdrawn Z1/Z2 class trams. One, not even in Victoria. What about the electric trains from the 70s now being withdrawn?. There are groups lovingly restoring 1st generation wooden bodied EMU trains. But no love for those trains now being withdrawn.
Matthew
The Melbourne Tram Museum at Hawthorn Depot has a Z1 in its collection: Z1.81.

As for "electric trains from the 70s" - Elecrail has a 6-car Hitachi EMU 'set'.
  Matthew Chief Train Controller

The Melbourne Tram Museum at Hawthorn Depot has a Z1 in its collection: Z1.81.
LancedDendrite

Hawthorn Depot is not an operating museum. Its exhibits MIGHT be operable in theory, but Hawthorn most definitely is a static museum only.
Z1.81 is not in any condition to represent the class either. As ‘Karachi W11’ it's a wonderful work of art, but as a representative of the modernisation of the Melbourne tramway network, it's not really it in it's current form. (But likewise it would be a pity to lose that wonderful artwork job to restore it to more 'conventional' appearance.)

Hawthorn is also chronically short on space. What happens when the A and B class get retired?



As for "electric trains from the 70s" - Elecrail has a 6-car Hitachi EMU 'set'.
LancedDendrite


On the EMU front, Victoria is doing much better, although the heavy hand of regulation is taking its toll - with the tait set out but unable to power, hauled by a steam locomotive.

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