Mildura Passenger rail push grows

 
Topic moved from News by bevans on 18 Apr 2017 07:10
  james.au Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
Why aren't the people of Mildura entitled to a rail service when our major town and cities in Victoria are?

Because it's 550km away with little in between.

And also has 3 air carriers with service to Melbourne.

...at fares 4 times the cost of V/Line fares...
Because they are not subsidised and running at losses, unlike V/Line services would be...
Well actually, some regional services are subsidised to an extent, because the value of the service outweigh the cost of running it, even if it's not directly through fares (ie, filling connecting flights, government incentives).
John.Z
Not the Mildura ones.

The only regional flights that I'm aware of that get a direct subsidy are the Queensland Regional ones.  In NSW and Western Australia, there are regulated routes that restrict flight operations to just one operator (on the theoretical basis that competition would not be sustainable).  Im not sure whether anything like this exists in the other states.

All modes of transport get some sort of indirect subsidy in one way or another, indeed all activity is indirectly subsidised in some way by some form of government spending somewhere in the economic chain.

But not many are subsidised to the extent and without the transparency of why it is subsidised to the extent it is that passenger rail seems to be.

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  x31 Chief Commissioner

Location: gallifrey
Why is subsidising a flight or a train a big deal?  Sounds reasonable to me.
  james.au Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
Why is subsidising a flight or a train a big deal?  Sounds reasonable to me.
x31

Because it costs money and its not clear to me what the benefits of doing so are.  Dense routes like the Ballarat services etc that reduce urban congestion in Melbourne and reduce fuel consumption are good things, but thinner services are less beneficial. Same with airlines.

Also you have to ask why the subsidy is in place?  What policy problem is it addressing?  Sometimes this is not clear (especially when it is clearly for votes), and sometimes the problem could be addressed in another way that would be less costly and more targeted.  Eg, cheap travel for poor people to access jobs is a reason given.  How about give poor people a travel allowance of some sort and let them spend it on the travel they need to get to jobs?  Poor people in Wagga are not going to Sydney for work, but they might be traveling within and around Wagga, so why does the XPT need to be subsidised for poor people to access work? Im not saying there are not justifiable subsidies, but unjustifiable ones shouldn't exist, and to me a lot of them do.
  MetroFemme Assistant Commissioner

Public services are designed to be co funded by governments.
  trainbrain Chief Commissioner

Trains service is often a popular idea but, when it comes to the actual travel decision, travellers either elect to fly (quicker albeit often more expensive) or drive (depart at any time).

A good place to start in would be to look at patronage of the existing bus services, of which there appear to be 4 on a weekday:

- an overnight service via Donald & Maryborough
- 3 daylight services

How many people actually use land-based Public Transport now? And, of these, how many use it for intermediate stops not served by airlines. If there is enough demand to fill the buses (or even require multiple buses), then perhaps there is a business case beyond "a train might be nice".
SinickleBird
A relative of mine drives Vline coaches out of Mildura and quite often the case is the coaches are always full, the problem with the train is, they have to go through ballarat. The coaches to bendigo and Swan Hill provide a much faster service than those going to Ballarat. Simple. You people get over it...................
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
- convert  the displaced Vlocities to long haul use and for some convert to SG.
Why?

The Victorian government is already ready to build new long haul Vlocities, and if there are any redundant sets if Geelong finally gets electrified at some point in the next ten years, these will likely been used to infill extra services for other lines. The government is already proposing 40 minute timetable intervals for lines like Traralgon....
cabidass
The Geelong line has 16 services between 4:30 and 8am running an average of 95% capacity seated! Some services would have additional standing. The average train has 444 seats, similar to most 6 car SD EMU services in other parts of the country. There are more than a few commuter lines that don't have this capacity in peak with the Gold Coast line only marginally ahead.

Without knowing the economics, it must be bloody close. When it happens I'm guessing up to a dozen 6 car Vlocities will be made unemployed and looking for new work. If there is sufficient work elsewhere, great, but not sure Traralgon and a few others will chew up the dozen sets. So displacement of the aging N class hauled trains makes sense. If more are needed, great.

Either way I don't see the Mildura line getting the much needed birthday in the next 3-4 years and until this happens, a train is a moot point. When it happens the DMU's will either be new, or upgraded of existing fleet. What ever, it was just an option.
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
Vline - $103.60.

Virgin Wed/Thu - $250.

$250/$103.60 = 2.4

2.4 =/= 4
If you plan about a week ahead, you can do a weekend in Mildura for $125 each way. Out Saturday, return Sunday.
ParkesHub
In other words $250 return.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
Vline - $103.60.

Virgin Wed/Thu - $250.

$250/$103.60 = 2.4

2.4 =/= 4
If you plan about a week ahead, you can do a weekend in Mildura for $125 each way. Out Saturday, return Sunday.
In other words $250 return.
railblogger

...that's fine if one lives at Melbourne airport...most people don't.

Factoring in that 99% of Melbourne airport travellers have no idea of using the 'free' 901 bus, feel free to add travelling costs to/from Melbourne airport.

Mike.
  Carnot Chief Commissioner

Vline - $103.60.

Virgin Wed/Thu - $250.

$250/$103.60 = 2.4

2.4 =/= 4
If you plan about a week ahead, you can do a weekend in Mildura for $125 each way. Out Saturday, return Sunday.
In other words $250 return.

...that's fine if one lives at Melbourne airport...most people don't.

Factoring in that 99% of Melbourne airport travellers have no idea of using the 'free' 901 bus, feel free to add travelling costs to/from Melbourne airport.

Mike.
The Vinelander
As in the bus service that takes 4 hours to get from Franga to the airport, or 2.5 hours from Ringwood....
  cabidass Chief Train Controller

Without knowing the economics, it must be bloody close.
RTT_Rules
Maybe..

When it happens I'm guessing up to a dozen 6 car Vlocities will be made unemployed and looking for new work. If there is sufficient work elsewhere, great, but not sure Traralgon and a few others will chew up the dozen sets.
RTT_Rules
3 for T'gon, 3 for Ballarat, 3 for Bendigo.. Doesn't leave many left. Sprinters can be reallocated to a Warragul/T'gon inter-urban commuter service. So their redundancy may consume a few more... I dare say they'll take the older Vlos and give them a refurb. So a couple of sets will be offline for a little bit too.

We are talking hypotheticals here. But it will really depend on exactly what would need to be changed/upgraded if they were to be made for long haul. But given the government has illustrated it wants to buy 'long haul Vlocities' as opposed to 'extra carriages to make existing Vlocities long haul', I'm going to put my money on keeping any redundant Vlocities from the Geelong line electrification as standard sets.

But in saying that, the government is ordering more standard Vlos too I think. So that could mean that for at least the medium term future, the government is just planning on adding more Vlo services to Geelong....

So displacement of the aging N class hauled trains makes sense. If more are needed, great.
RTT_Rules

Going by the press and media releases, the government intends on running the new long haul Vlos along side the N sets. The N sets were built in the early 80s. So still relatively young by conventional rollingstock standards. I can't see them being retired within the next ten years, short of the state receiving some massive financial windfall. And I don't see that as likely given current spending commitments.

There has been discussion on this topic in the threads on the RRR already. Which has links and references that may be of interest.
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
Vline - $103.60.

Virgin Wed/Thu - $250.

$250/$103.60 = 2.4

2.4 =/= 4
If you plan about a week ahead, you can do a weekend in Mildura for $125 each way. Out Saturday, return Sunday.
In other words $250 return.

...that's fine if one lives at Melbourne airport...most people don't.

Factoring in that 99% of Melbourne airport travellers have no idea of using the 'free' 901 bus, feel free to add travelling costs to/from Melbourne airport.

Mike.
The Vinelander
Unless it costs $150 to get to the airport your comparison is still completely bogus.
  james.au Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
Public services are designed to be co funded by governments.
MetroFemme

Public services are provided by governments as it is either (a) politically expedient or (b) its needed but the market for the service is not financially viable but is economically required and so is provided.  Re (b), we have gradually seen privatisation of a range of things (e.g. Qantas, Comm Bank, Telstra) that would have been thought of as sacred about 60-70 yrs ago.  When we work out how to make passenger rail financially viable, it will be sold to the private sector to run too.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
Unless it costs $150 to get to the airport your comparison is still completely bogus.
ZH836301

As I am in the 1% of travellers to the airport who use the 'free' 901 bus, I have no idea of the costs of taxi's to/from the airport...but you can add at least $40.00 for the Skybus...BEFORE you've even paid to arrive at SCS.

For me that's already half the cost of my V/Line ticket to Mildura.

Still bogus Question

Mike.
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
So not 4 times more expensive, which you claimed.

In any case it doesn't matter, the planes make money, Vline burns it - the comparison is pointless.
  Radioman Chief Train Controller

Hello All,

privatization of public assets is profitable for private enterprise ( even if they prove to be incompetent ) because various government subsidies and tax minimization comes with it.

It is the mug ordinary taxpayer , the ones who work and get very little tax relief , and therefore actually pay tax , that are consistently taken to the cleaners.

A recent letter in a local paper explained how Kingston Council paid $120,000 - for four signs and white paint for a pedestrian crossing outside of Parkdale Library . Yes , you read it correctly One Hundred and Twenty Thousand Dollars ! And Kingston is one of the better run Councils. Whilst locals do appreciate the new pedestrian crossing , one has to wonder how on earth such a modest addition could possibly cost so much money.

Best wishes and regards, Radioman
  Lad_Porter Chief Commissioner

Location: Yarra Glen
So not 4 times more expensive, which you claimed.

In any case it doesn't matter, the planes make money, Vline burns it - the comparison is pointless.
ZH836301
That may well be true, but if I wanted to go to Mildura and I have a limited amount of money to spend on fares, and I'm not too concerned about how long it takes, then the comparison is not pointless.
  Carnot Chief Commissioner

I'm going to put it out there - any chance a privately run SG passenger train operator could make this a success?  Hook up R766 to lead it on weekends or once a month?

But realistically, neither a public or private service has any chance if unprotected level crossings on Mildura line have speed restrictions...
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
So not 4 times more expensive, which you claimed.

In any case it doesn't matter, the planes make money, V/line burns it - the comparison is pointless.
ZH836301

ZH appears to have gone into hibernation for the Winter.

Mike.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
I'm going to put it out there - any chance a privately run SG passenger train operator could make this a success?  Hook up R766 to lead it on weekends or once a month?

But realistically, neither a public or private service has any chance if unprotected level crossings on Mildura line have speed restrictions...
Carnot
This is the model I've come around to, nothing you can do about the speed restrictions but why not actually pay the preservation societies to run a special overnight sleeping train with modernised sleepers - why not - Dan Andrews throws money at much sillier things. Once a week/whenever? Sunraysia Council need to think of the tourism potential too.

Not sure that any other sort of service would be viable.
  Daryl Junior Train Controller

Location: Carrum Downs
"Simply spark the Geelong line"

I recall it took years and years to spark Newport-Weribee.

I suspect that was due to penny pinching rather than any engineering issues.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
"Simply spark the Geelong line"

I recall it took years and years to spark Newport-Weribee.

I suspect that was due to penny pinching rather than any engineering issues.
Daryl

What exactly does spark mean?  Electrify or place metro tains and electrify?
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

Without knowing the economics, it must be bloody close.
Maybe..

When it happens I'm guessing up to a dozen 6 car Vlocities will be made unemployed and looking for new work. If there is sufficient work elsewhere, great, but not sure Traralgon and a few others will chew up the dozen sets.
3 for T'gon, 3 for Ballarat, 3 for Bendigo.. Doesn't leave many left. Sprinters can be reallocated to a Warragul/T'gon inter-urban commuter service. So their redundancy may consume a few more... I dare say they'll take the older Vlos and give them a refurb. So a couple of sets will be offline for a little bit too.

We are talking hypotheticals here. But it will really depend on exactly what would need to be changed/upgraded if they were to be made for long haul. But given the government has illustrated it wants to buy 'long haul Vlocities' as opposed to 'extra carriages to make existing Vlocities long haul', I'm going to put my money on keeping any redundant Vlocities from the Geelong line electrification as standard sets.

But in saying that, the government is ordering more standard Vlos too I think. So that could mean that for at least the medium term future, the government is just planning on adding more Vlo services to Geelong....

So displacement of the aging N class hauled trains makes sense. If more are needed, great.

Going by the press and media releases, the government intends on running the new long haul Vlos along side the N sets. The N sets were built in the early 80s. So still relatively young by conventional rollingstock standards. I can't see them being retired within the next ten years, short of the state receiving some massive financial windfall. And I don't see that as likely given current spending commitments.

There has been discussion on this topic in the threads on the RRR already. Which has links and references that may be of interest.
cabidass
To run the following frequencies takes this number of  V/Locity train sets  

Geelong 20 mins (takes 9 sets), Ballarat 40 mins (7),  Bacchus Marsh  40 mins (3),  Bendigo 40 mins (9) ,  Shepparton  120 mins (3),  Seymour 40 mins (5), Traralgon 40 mins (9) =  Total 45 sets .
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
To run the following frequencies takes this number of  V/Locity train sets  

Geelong 20 mins (takes 9 sets), Ballarat 40 mins (7),  Bacchus Marsh  40 mins (3),  Bendigo 40 mins (9) ,  Shepparton  120 mins (3),  Seymour 40 mins (5), Traralgon 40 mins (9) =  Total 45 sets .
kuldalai
40 minute services frequencies strays away from "clock face" timetable throughout the day.
  TOQ-1 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Power Trainger
To run the following frequencies takes this number of  V/Locity train sets  

Geelong 20 mins (takes 9 sets), Ballarat 40 mins (7),  Bacchus Marsh  40 mins (3),  Bendigo 40 mins (9) ,  Shepparton  120 mins (3),  Seymour 40 mins (5), Traralgon 40 mins (9) =  Total 45 sets .
40 minute services frequencies strays away from "clock face" timetable trough out the day.
Nightfire
And yet it's where V/Line goes to when it wants to increase frequencies.

I would suggest to V/Lien that 30 minutes to Kyneton and keeping the 60 minutes to Bendigo with the Bendigo Trains skipping more stations would be more useful.
  themetptc Junior Train Controller

Location: Ballarat
"Simply spark the Geelong line"

I recall it took years and years to spark Newport-Weribee.

I suspect that was due to penny pinching rather than any engineering issues.

What exactly does spark mean?  Electrify or place metro tains and electrify?
bevans
Spark is slang for electricity, sparky is slang for electrician. Answer: Elelctrify.
Geelong shouldn't be part of the Melbourne Metro.  However, with the drastic increase of urban sprawl towards Geelong recently, Geelong may soon loose the title of Victoria's second largest city and gain the title of Melbourne's largest suburb.
(now getting off topic)

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