Geelong high speed rail and electrification

 
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

Geelong high speed rail and electrification

For other discussions on the Geelong Line:
Check out these threads:

How Geelong line able to cope becoming a metropolitan line in the future
https://www.railpage.com.au/f-t11386457.htm

Geelong rail expansion and its own metro system
https://www.railpage.com.au/f-t11385957-0-asc-s0.htm

Best case scenario for future of Geelong line (The plan)

I have combined the two concepts on how to still utilise the RRL route and have a better direct route to service those at Geelong and beyond. Smile. I like to thank others on the site for the comments on the previous idea and got me thinking of this concept (I'm not claiming is my idea).

This is a good blog post a little outdated (2008) but still relevant today: https://melbpt.wordpress.com/electrification-economics/

Ok here it goes. It is a most expensive proposal ever but I think others alike know this is a long term plan and must get it right for the potential surge of patronage in the South West Region of Victoria and the Western part of Melbourne.

Costs involved are estimates only, may increase as time passes. Gives an idea the scale of such a project. This is probably the best case scenario for the Geelong line. Some needs a detail business case and planning document to see whether such a project could go ahead or if other projects take priority as I focussed on one part of Victoria.

The new Geelong metro line (stops all stations)
  • 90 km of electrification on existing Geelong Route via RRL (500 million+ )
  • 7 km of Quad between Sunshine and Deerpark + grade separations (600 million)
  • Additional 3 stations on RRL (250 million)
  • Upgrade track needing repairing (200 million+ )
  • Werribee line extension to Wyndham vale (500 million)
  • New rolling stock 30-35 trains and stabling facility (1 billion) *

Note: *The existing VLocity trains can be used onto the Warrnambool line, and other lines needing more services. Older rolling stock on other lines can be replaced with these trains. Only older rolling stock will be out of service

Geelong High speed rail (express route, stops at Avalon airport, Werribee and Southern Cross)**
  • New double tracks from Geelong to Newport with a divert to Avalon airport
  • High speed trains (number of trains to be investigated**)
  • New stations at Avalon airport
  • Rebuild Werribee station for interchange
  • Metro 2 tunnel (four tracks- one set for Werribee, the other set for the High speed trains)
  • New stabling yard built

Note; **Planning study needs to investigate costs and benefits of such a project

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  LancedDendrite Chief Commissioner

Location: North Haverbrook; where the monorail is king!
A quad-track Melbourne Metro 2 tunnel and quadding between Newport and Werribee are unnecessary; both can be avoided with the use of intermediate station bypass tracks with high-speed (>115kph) turnouts. This practice is well-established in Japan where some rail corridors are often restricted to duplicated track only, forcing local and express services to be mixed at high frequencies. Obviously in Melbourne the corridors are less constrained, but the fairly long station spacing (and therefore few stations) on most of the Werribee line out past Newport and the obvious high cost of digging a Melbourne Metro 2 tunnel with 4 tracks instead of 2 make for an enticing cost reduction with little resultant downside.

Looking at the 2012 PTV Network Development Plan, there is space to accommodate Werribee/Wyndham Vale, Mernda and Geelong services all together on a duplicated-track-only Melbourne Metro 2 without running into signalling constraints. In Stage 4, the Mernda-Fishermans Bend line has a peak frequency of 15 trains per hour; Werribee/Wyndham Vale is 15 tph (excluding Altona Loop services) and Grovedale-South Yarra (aka Waurn Ponds/Geelong line) has 9 trains per hour excluding Black Forest Rd short-starters. 15 Werribee-Mernda + 9 Geelong services = 24 tph in peak, just at the assumed practical limits of high-capacity signalling as defined in the Network Development Plan. Those service frequencies should be plenty for the foreseeable future and if there are passenger carrying capacity constraints on top of them then platform extensions would be a much cheaper solution.

In practice, the infrastructure required to implement a high speed electric Geelong service in this manner on top of an infrastructure baseline of a Newport-Clifton Hill Melbourne Metro 2 tunnel (plus associated level crossing removals) and Geelong/Waurn Ponds electrification would be:
  • Southern Cross: 4 underground platforms with 2 extending into a terminating stub track for turning around Geelong services
  • MM2 Fishermans Bend station: 4 underground platforms
  • Newport: 4 underground platforms
  • Laverton: flying junction with Altona Loop at Laverton Junction with 'main line' tracks also diverging with high-speed turnouts into station bypass tracks; rebuild of station into a large island platform with station bypass tracks on each side; provision of a pair of terminating stub tracks with crossovers at the Down (i.e Werribee) end of the platform for 'local' Altona Loop services running via Spotswood
  • Aircraft: demolition of existing station (redundant due to Williams Landing); grade separation (rail-over-road) of Aviation Rd level crossing with 3 tracks overhead (1x ARTC freight track, 2x BG)
  • Williams Landing: station bypass tracks added; ARTC freight line re-aligned to accommodate
  • Hoppers Crossing: grade separation of Old Geelong Rd level crossing (rail-over-road); new station built with island platform and station bypass tracks
  • Werribee: New elevated rail section to grade separate both Cherry St and Werribee St level crossings, including a rebuild of Werribee as a junction station with 4 platforms

It's a lot of extra pointwork (and expensive high-speed turnouts at that), but it eliminates a lot of unnecessary quadruplication that brings with it either huge capital costs (due to extra tunnelling) or new earthworks and land acquisition.
  kitchgp Chief Commissioner

Geelong high speed rail and electrification

For some different analysis of the Geelong Line: ***
Check out this thread and continue discussing there; https://www.railpage.com.au/f-t11386457.htm
"James974"


Where does this thread fit in (last post 3 Apr):
https://www.railpage.com.au/f-t11385957-0-asc-s0.htm
?
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

Geelong high speed rail and electrification

For some different analysis of the Geelong Line: ***
Check out this thread and continue discussing there; https://www.railpage.com.au/f-t11386457.htm


Where does this thread fit in (last post 3 Apr):
https://www.railpage.com.au/f-t11385957-0-asc-s0.htm
?
kitchgp
Yeah good point, that thread is worthy of mention, since it complements duplicates this plan. Plus it is not too old to be revived or anything according to the rules.
  x31 Chief Commissioner

Location: gallifrey
Studies in Queensland and also overseas show costs for electrification dual track should be in the order of $2m max per kilometre therefore 90 kms of overhead and associated infrastructure would cost around $200-$220m.  The environmental benefits would need to be costed into the business case and if we could do the geelong line as AC (as we should be doing now) then I believe it should have already passed business case.

Also what of the Ballarat line with the hills we have read about on the forums, this should also be done so for $500m we could do Geelong and Ballarat on AC which would make the service a whole lot better and quiet.

I do wonder what the fuel bill for the Geelong line would be?
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

I don't know the costs of electrification in Victoria , if anyone know the cost per km then I can calculate it into the post.
  x31 Chief Commissioner

Location: gallifrey
I don't know the costs of electrification in Victoria , if anyone know the cost per km then I can calculate it into the post.
James974

The state was ripped off on the cragieburn electrification probably because we are doing lots of small projects where we need to do a longer term project to do a lot more and structure the contract in that way such was done in Queensland.

Contact over the next 3 years the Melbourne to Ballarat and Melbourne to Geelong and Geelong to Ballarat and you would save a lot of cost in a bigger contract with economies of scale reducing overall cost per kilometre.

If we cannot deliver the project for $2m or less per kilometre for 200 kms of AC work then get the chinese in to do it.  Do substations would be required for the regional network as it would be AC.

The additional savings in environment and speed and capital and maintenance would easily outweigh the cost.    Put it out to tender and expect to pay around $350m.

Establish the base for maintenance of the EMU vline fleet at ballarat creating more jobs.
  John.Z Chief Train Controller

I don't know the costs of electrification in Victoria , if anyone know the cost per km then I can calculate it into the post.
James974
Sunbury electrification was 15km at $270m, or $18m per km of double electrified track. But as with most of these projects, I don't know what else was done at the same time which bumped up the costs (as is usual with some of these projects that hide maintenance into big ticket items).
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
I don't know the costs of electrification in Victoria , if anyone know the cost per km then I can calculate it into the post.

The state was ripped off on the cragieburn electrification probably because we are doing lots of small projects where we need to do a longer term project to do a lot more and structure the contract in that way such was done in Queensland.

Contact over the next 3 years the Melbourne to Ballarat and Melbourne to Geelong and Geelong to Ballarat and you would save a lot of cost in a bigger contract with economies of scale reducing overall cost per kilometre.

Establish the base for maintenance of the EMU vline fleet at ballarat creating more jobs.
x31

About every 6 months somebody suggests electrifying the RFR lines Exclamation

It's getting quite tiresome.

So...we throw away around half the VLocity fleet before they are anywhere near life expired and electrify where Question...Ballarat to Geelong as well...that doesn't even have a plan for pax services at this time.

As Woodford is want to comment regularly in these pages...we don't pay enough tax as it is to cover the infrastructure that's required over the next few decades, yet the suggestion is made that we abandon over a $Billion in existing rolling stock....and I haven't even figured in mega dollar replacement EMU's.

Kind of makes the state being 'ripped off' over a few Km of electrification seem insignificant...Yes Question


Mike.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner


About every 6 months somebody suggests electrifying the RFR lines Exclamation

It's getting quite tiresome.

So...we throw away around half the VLocity fleet before they are anywhere near life expired and electrify where Question...Ballarat to Geelong as well...that doesn't even have a plan for pax services at this time.

As Woodford is want to comment regularly in these pages...we don't pay enough tax as it is to cover the infrastructure that's required over the next few decades, yet the suggestion is made that we abandon over a $Billion in existing rolling stock....and I haven't even figured in mega dollar replacement EMU's.

Kind of makes the state being 'ripped off' over a few Km of electrification seem insignificant...Yes Question


Mike.
The Vinelander
This is only the Geelong Line, probably the busiest line in the Regional Network, and electrification is mentioned in the PTV network development plan. It is not viable now, but in the future it will be. 20 years away.  

I am not throwing the Vlocity fleet, just moving them onto different lines that can use them. The old rolling stock on the Vline network can be thrown out, and the freed up Vlocities can be moved onto those lines. Also that Torquay line can be serviced using those excess of Vlocity trains.

Yes I do feel that our rail projects are overpriced due to the fact that only do projects in a small scale. A big scale project can scale down the average price.
  MetroFemme Assistant Commissioner

$18m per 1000 metres holy hell.
  John.Z Chief Train Controller

$18m per 1000 metres holy hell.
MetroFemme
Yup couldn't believe it when I read it
  TOQ-1 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Power Trainger
I don't know the costs of electrification in Victoria , if anyone know the cost per km then I can calculate it into the post.
Sunbury electrification was 15km at $270m, or $18m per km of double electrified track. But as with most of these projects, I don't know what else was done at the same time which bumped up the costs (as is usual with some of these projects that hide maintenance into big ticket items).
John.Z
New stabling at Sunbury, new platform shelters at Sunbury and Digger's Rest. Coach replacement costs probably factored in as well.

Probably still doesn't stack up the way it should. A lot of cost probably went into building the substations.
  John.Z Chief Train Controller

I don't know the costs of electrification in Victoria , if anyone know the cost per km then I can calculate it into the post.
Sunbury electrification was 15km at $270m, or $18m per km of double electrified track. But as with most of these projects, I don't know what else was done at the same time which bumped up the costs (as is usual with some of these projects that hide maintenance into big ticket items).
New stabling at Sunbury, new platform shelters at Sunbury and Digger's Rest. Coach replacement costs probably factored in as well.

Probably still doesn't stack up the way it should. A lot of cost probably went into building the substations.
TOQ-1
Agreed there is always maitenance tacked on from lack of for years preceeding, the sleepers were probably renewed as well.
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
I don't know the costs of electrification in Victoria , if anyone know the cost per km then I can calculate it into the post.
Sunbury electrification was 15km at $270m, or $18m per km of double electrified track. But as with most of these projects, I don't know what else was done at the same time which bumped up the costs (as is usual with some of these projects that hide maintenance into big ticket items).
New stabling at Sunbury, new platform shelters at Sunbury and Digger's Rest. Coach replacement costs probably factored in as well.

Probably still doesn't stack up the way it should. A lot of cost probably went into building the substations.
Agreed there is always maitenance tacked on from lack of for years preceeding, the sleepers were probably renewed as well.
John.Z
Sleepers in platform roads may have been. I doubt that sleepers on the main lines would have been though as they would been less than 10 years old at the time.
  kitchgp Chief Commissioner

Geelong high speed rail and electrification

For some different analysis of the Geelong Line: ***
Check out this thread and continue discussing there; https://www.railpage.com.au/f-t11386457.htm
"James974"

Where does this thread fit in (last post 3 Apr):
https://www.railpage.com.au/f-t11385957-0-asc-s0.htm
?
"kitchgp"

Yeah good point, that thread is worthy of mention, since it complements this plan. Plus it is not too old to be revived or anything according to the rules.
"James974"

'duplicates' would be a better choice of word.
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

I don't know the costs of electrification in Victoria , if anyone know the cost per km then I can calculate it into the post.

The state was ripped off on the cragieburn electrification probably because we are doing lots of small projects where we need to do a longer term project to do a lot more and structure the contract in that way such was done in Queensland.

Contact over the next 3 years the Melbourne to Ballarat and Melbourne to Geelong and Geelong to Ballarat and you would save a lot of cost in a bigger contract with economies of scale reducing overall cost per kilometre.

Establish the base for maintenance of the EMU vline fleet at ballarat creating more jobs.

About every 6 months somebody suggests electrifying the RFR lines Exclamation

It's getting quite tiresome.

So...we throw away around half the VLocity fleet before they are anywhere near life expired and electrify where Question...Ballarat to Geelong as well...that doesn't even have a plan for pax services at this time.

As Woodford is want to comment regularly in these pages...we don't pay enough tax as it is to cover the infrastructure that's required over the next few decades, yet the suggestion is made that we abandon over a $Billion in existing rolling stock....and I haven't even figured in mega dollar replacement EMU's.

Kind of makes the state being 'ripped off' over a few Km of electrification seem insignificant...Yes Question


Mike.
The Vinelander
Normally I would disagree with you Mike. The fact that Victoria has sunk over $1 Billion on DMU's means that we are paying far too much for them. (Rather like the Mark II E Class Trams). Indeed there are very few examples in the world where such an intense service such as the one proposed for Geelong are operated by Diesel Multiple Units. Geelong really needs a train with more capacity than the V/locity.

However I do agree with you not agreeing with the Geelong Electrification. For Electrification will mean building more of those cheap and nasty Xtrap 100's. A platform from the late nineties that is obsolete and few transport authorities use, save for a little transport operation somewhere in Chile!!!

Michael
  mm42 Chief Train Controller

The best example of a pure electrification project is the Rolleston line 25 kV AC electrification to the Bauhinia coal mine in Queensland. This was completed in 2014 at a cost of $170m for 107 km of single track, or $1.6m/km.  There was no doubt full daytime occupation for construction access, and the lack of surrounding structures meant the lines could be flown by helicopter, all of which would have reduced costs relative to a built-up environment on an operating train line. In Vic our electrification costs are inflated by the low voltage DC system, which means every station needs its own transformer, so two 6-car trains can start from a stand-still simulaneously. It appears the new Melbourne Metro Rail project will use 25 kV AC electrification as far as Pakenham, so longer trains can be used without upgrading electrical substations at each station.   The existing DC transformers could be cascaded through the network as replacements for life-expired equipment. We are only ever told the budget for a project, not the individual components, which often include station upgrades, signal upgrades and new stabling.  The budget for the Craigieburn electrification project also included a new road bridge for Somerton Road at Cooperoo.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

However I do agree with you not agreeing with the Geelong Electrification. For Electrification will mean building more of those cheap and nasty Xtrap 100's. A platform from the late nineties that is obsolete and few transport authorities use, save for a little transport operation somewhere in Chile!!!

Michael
mejhammers1

The X-Trap 100s are at the end of the production line. The new trains are known as HCMTs for the moment. They have not arrived into testing yet, but will be just before state's election. Just wait and see if these new trains will good enough. But they don't come cheap either though which is where I stand to agree. Our Infrastructure is heavily priced compared to other places in the world, Have no idea what makes it so expensive to build it here apart from those lots of those mini projects that accomplish nothing.
  tazzer96 Deputy Commissioner


About every 6 months somebody suggests electrifying the RFR lines Exclamation

It's getting quite tiresome.

So...we throw away around half the VLocity fleet before they are anywhere near life expired and electrify where Question...Ballarat to Geelong as well...that doesn't even have a plan for pax services at this time.

As Woodford is want to comment regularly in these pages...we don't pay enough tax as it is to cover the infrastructure that's required over the next few decades, yet the suggestion is made that we abandon over a $Billion in existing rolling stock....and I haven't even figured in mega dollar replacement EMU's.

Kind of makes the state being 'ripped off' over a few Km of electrification seem insignificant...Yes Question


Mike.
The Vinelander
You are still ordering velocities because you don't have enough.    You still use locomotive hauled suburban stock from the 50's in peak hour.  
So even if you do electrify to warun ponds and to wendouree (which is what I would be doing in the near future), you haven't made anything obsolete.
  tazzer96 Deputy Commissioner

lets take a look at the rough daily fuel bill for the geelong line.   The assumptions i'm making is $1/L for fuel.   1L/car/km for fuel use.  This takes into account idling at temini etc.   All services are 6 car velocities (i know this isn't true)  All services go to waurn ponds (i know this isn't true either)

Assume 100 services daily.   84km x 6 cars x 1L x 100 services = $50400 a weekday.   Thats quite a lot to spend each day just to keep it electrified.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

lets take a look at the rough daily fuel bill for the geelong line.   The assumptions i'm making is $1/L for fuel.   1L/car/km for fuel use.  This takes into account idling at temini etc.   All services are 6 car velocities (i know this isn't true)  All services go to waurn ponds (i know this isn't true either)

Assume 100 services daily.   84km x 6 cars x 1L x 100 services = $50400 a weekday.   Thats quite a lot to spend each day just to keep it electrified.
Do you mean, Thats quite a lot to spend each day just to keep it diesel operated?

This is already linked to the thread, but it has a graph on the costs between electric and diesel operations.  
https://melbpt.wordpress.com/electrification-economics/
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

RAIL FUTURES  has set out the short. medium and longer term plan for all last year in its Regional Strategy  .

1. Electrify RRL to Wyndam Vale. then V/Locity express through suburban area .

2. Longer term new high speed line via existing RRL corridor linked to new CBD  Airport railway continuing to Clarkefield and Wallan .

Geelong & Ballarat pax change at Sunshine for Airport,  Bendigo , Shepparton & Albury pax travel via Airport .

Strategy is on Rail Futures website
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

RAIL FUTURES  has set out the short. medium and longer term plan for all last year in its Regional Strategy  .

1. Electrify RRL to Wyndam Vale. then V/Locity express through suburban area .

2. Longer term new high speed line via existing RRL corridor linked to new CBD  Airport railway continuing to Clarkefield and Wallan .

Geelong & Ballarat pax change at Sunshine for Airport,  Bendigo , Shepparton & Albury pax travel via Airport .

Strategy is on Rail Futures website
kuldalai
Yes I had a quick read awhile back, the most interesting part is how regional lines can utilise the Melbourne Airport as a direct service into the CBD.
Link: http://www.railfutures.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/160804-Regional-Rail-paper-v14.1.11-final-for-printing.pdf

Yeah just realised this plan quite similar to that strategy, oh well at least it was worth the discussion.
Also I can see they only want to loop the metro rail on the RRL, whereas my solution goes further have the loop but have it extend the metro rail all the way to Geelong, So that the whole Geelong line can be express and have an all stopping service as well.
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
No reason to hold Geelong on a pedestal - it should simply be run as an extension of existing suburban services, it's a shorter journey than other metro journeys.  Rather, the longer distance suburban journeys (eg. Frankston, Pakenham, etc.) should be considered on the same level as Geelong, with more appropriate rollingstock.  Given there are only three (assuming the useless Aircraft is closed) suburban stops between Newport and Werribee, operating as a separate service makes no sense.
And a local Geelong rail system is bonkers - the rail lines go nowhere near anywhere of interest.

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