Victoria Rubbish Crisis

 
  x31 Chief Commissioner

Location: gallifrey
Now China has stopped receive Australia's rubbish but still receives iron ore and coal what can Victoria do with rubbish trains and rail with such a issue developing and with rubbish pilling up around the state?

Is there some scope to run rubbish trains between NSW and Vic in both directions and can Victoria use rail for delivery of rubbish with the current crisis note new way of managing rubbish?

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  Carnot Minister for Railways

Now China has stopped receive Australia's rubbish but still receives iron ore and coal what can Victoria do with rubbish trains and rail with such a issue developing and with rubbish pilling up around the state?

Is there some scope to run rubbish trains between NSW and Vic in both directions and can Victoria use rail for delivery of rubbish with the current crisis note new way of managing rubbish?
x31
What % of the cargo on NSW rubbish trains is rubbish or recyclables?

They should just burn what they can't sell.  But there's not much leadership and too much red-tape and NIMBYism in this country to make it happen:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-12-01/should-australia-be-burning-rubbish-for-electricity/8082768

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-08-27/plant-to-burn-rubbish-for-energy-faces-uphill-battle/8846390
  emmastreet Train Controller

Location: Goulburn Valley
Rubbish trains. Like a H set to Shepparton?
  james.au Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney, NSW
The only reason its cheaper in China is because they can use cheap labour to sort it all.  

IMO there should be a push to develop our own industrial level recycling industry to process this waste ourselves.  We could even import from elsewhere if we did it right.  

First place would be to develop a more effective sorting mechanism...
  x31 Chief Commissioner

Location: gallifrey
Australia now needs to do this urgently with a lot of space around the country to provide landfill.  Could the coal mines in SA and also some of the areas in Victoria or NSW handle a large amount of landfill via a rail connection from national collection points?
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
As suggested in other threads - consider burning it at a dedicated power station just outside the metro area. This is how other countries deal with it; I can imagine the Northcote crowd would not approve however.
  Carnot Minister for Railways

Australia now needs to do this urgently with a lot of space around the country to provide landfill.  Could the coal mines in SA and also some of the areas in Victoria or NSW handle a large amount of landfill via a rail connection from national collection points?
x31
The old quarry at Manor (next to Geelong line) has inverted itself and now looks like a Mountain (Werribee tip).

Ravenhall is similarly turning into a mountain (adjacent RRL at Christies Rd).
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
The only reason its cheaper in China is because they can use cheap labour to sort it all.  

IMO there should be a push to develop our own industrial level recycling industry to process this waste ourselves.  We could even import from elsewhere if we did it right.  

First place would be to develop a more effective sorting mechanism...
james.au
Bang on James, we need to take some responsibility for the waste that we generate not just export our problems overseas.

Government should mandate recycling and if the private sector can't do it on a commercial basis then a levy should be introduced on all packaging to pay for it.

A mate who used to work at CUB told me that they now import most of their bottles from the middle east as it is cheaper. Meanwhile a mountain of glass builds up at recycling centres. It is insane.

The amount of packaging being used ATM is insane. We talk about getting rid of plastic shopping bags - so what? The other week I saw 4 Nectarines for sale at Woolies in a plastic tube like the ones that Tennis balls come in. There would be 50 > 100 plastic bags worth of plastic in that one container alone.

We are kidding ourselves if we think that as a society we can go on generating the amount of waste that we are at the moment ad infinitum. Not to mention the emissions generated by the production, transport and disposal of it all.

BG
  Carnot Minister for Railways

The only reason its cheaper in China is because they can use cheap labour to sort it all.  

IMO there should be a push to develop our own industrial level recycling industry to process this waste ourselves.  We could even import from elsewhere if we did it right.  

First place would be to develop a more effective sorting mechanism...
Bang on James, we need to take some responsibility for the waste that we generate not just export our problems overseas.

Government should mandate recycling and if the private sector can't do it on a commercial basis then a levy should be introduced on all packaging to pay for it.

A mate who used to work at CUB told me that they now import most of their bottles from the middle east as it is cheaper. Meanwhile a mountain of glass builds up at recycling centres. It is insane.

The amount of packaging being used ATM is insane. We talk about getting rid of plastic shopping bags - so what? The other week I saw 4 Nectarines for sale at Woolies in a plastic tube like the ones that Tennis balls come in. There would be 50 > 100 plastic bags worth of plastic in that one container alone.

We are kidding ourselves if we think that as a society we can go on generating the amount of waste that we are at the moment ad infinitum. Not to mention the emissions generated by the production, transport and disposal of it all.

BG
BrentonGolding
Agree.  There's all this virtue-signalling about banning plastic supermarket bags (which we re-use as bin liners), and yet plastic packaging is out-of-control everywhere else.  Nuts!

Carting rubbish and recycling product all over the countryside just adds to the problem with all the diesel fuel that has to be burnt to do so.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
Kids now-days don't know the joys of your local incinerator day, let's re-introduce the poor little asthmatic wheezers to it.
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
Kids now-days don't know the joys of your local incinerator day, let's re-introduce the poor little asthmatic wheezers to it.
don_dunstan
I can still picture the corpses of (metal) toothpaste tubes in the bottom of the old incinerater in Glenalta. And the neighbour burning leaves in the gutter of the road. Them were the days!

BG
  Gman_86 Chief Commissioner

Location: Melton, where the sparks dare not roam!
The heart of the issue isn't that China aren't importing recyclables, it is that we are too damn lazy to sort it ourselves. China is still importing recyclable commodities such as cardboard and paper but the recyclers here that are sending it out can no longer accept residential recycling waste due to the high levels of contamination and the fact that it isn't sorted. When it gets to China, they reject it and send it back at our expense.

The only solution here is to sort out our recyclables at the source, ie: your home or your business. Seperate everything into 6 different grades:

Organic waste (food scraps and garden waste)
Paper and cardboard
Glass
Plastics*
Metals
E-Waste

and a 7th grade for anything that doesn't fit into the previous 6 simply labelled as Landfill.

So in otherwords, instead of having 3 bins at home, we should have 7.

As a country we must take responsibility for the waste we are generating, we can't continue to just sweep it all under the giant rug called China.

*Plastics are truley one of humanities worst inventions. Put into landfill some plastics will take well over 1 million years to degrade, the damage they do to the atmosphere when burnt is horrifying and the damage done to sealife when it gets into the ocean is just pure evil.

At last count there were well over 100 grades of plastic, most of which are incompatible and can not be recycled together. Some grades are great for recycling like PET (think plastic drinks bottles) or LDPE (think clear shrink wrap used in shipping) then there are others which are just terrible. And don't get me started on Polystyrene and Styrofoam, they are the worst of the worst.

Plastics are the single biggest challenge for the recycling industry, at the moment there is no simple answer with this horrible stuff.
  allan Chief Commissioner

Kids now-days don't know the joys of your local incinerator day, let's re-introduce the poor little asthmatic wheezers to it.
don_dunstan
Ah, memories of childhood. The incinerator burning by the back fence, piles of leaves burning in the front gutter, all the way up the street, and a tin rubbish tin somewhat smaller than any of the three wheelie bins that we each need today!
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
So in otherwords, instead of having 3 bins at home, we should have 7.

As a country we must take responsibility for the waste we are generating, we can't
Gman_86
You are 100% right Gman. But it ain't gonna happen! a) the pollies don't have the guts to implement it and b) most people are too dumb or just plain lazy to do it.

Just last week I opened the recycling bin at the GF's Melbourne flat to find that one of the neighbours whose bin was full had filled her Yellow lid bin with garbage. Not recyclables but garbage - food scraps, an old makeup case etc etc.

So if I had not pulled it all out and thrown it on the the ground that would have contaminated another load of recyclables.

Pathetic.

BG
  apw5910 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Location: Location.
Kids now-days don't know the joys of your local incinerator day, let's re-introduce the poor little asthmatic wheezers to it.
Ah, memories of childhood. The incinerator burning by the back fence, piles of leaves burning in the front gutter, all the way up the street, and a tin rubbish tin somewhat smaller than any of the three wheelie bins that we each need today!
allan
"And you try telling that to the young people today..."

Anyone remember the annual Great Tyre Burnoff somewhere around Clyde? Now that really stank!
  james.au Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney, NSW
The heart of the issue isn't that China aren't importing recyclables, it is that we are too damn lazy to sort it ourselves. China is still importing recyclable commodities such as cardboard and paper but the recyclers here that are sending it out can no longer accept residential recycling waste due to the high levels of contamination and the fact that it isn't sorted. When it gets to China, they reject it and send it back at our expense.

The only solution here is to sort out our recyclables at the source, ie: your home or your business. Seperate everything into 6 different grades:

Organic waste (food scraps and garden waste)
Paper and cardboard
Glass
Plastics*
Metals
E-Waste

and a 7th grade for anything that doesn't fit into the previous 6 simply labelled as Landfill.

So in otherwords, instead of having 3 bins at home, we should have 7.

As a country we must take responsibility for the waste we are generating, we can't continue to just sweep it all under the giant rug called China.

*Plastics are truley one of humanities worst inventions. Put into landfill some plastics will take well over 1 million years to degrade, the damage they do to the atmosphere when burnt is horrifying and the damage done to sealife when it gets into the ocean is just pure evil.

At last count there were well over 100 grades of plastic, most of which are incompatible and can not be recycled together. Some grades are great for recycling like PET (think plastic drinks bottles) or LDPE (think clear shrink wrap used in shipping) then there are others which are just terrible. And don't get me started on Polystyrene and Styrofoam, they are the worst of the worst.

Plastics are the single biggest challenge for the recycling industry, at the moment there is no simple answer with this horrible stuff.
Gman_86
Australians are inherently slack and won't give two hoots about this.  I know they do this sort of thing i think in Japan, but it will never work as our mindset is just not right for this...
  allan Chief Commissioner

Anyone remember the annual Great Tyre Burnoff somewhere around Clyde? Now that really stank!
apw5910
Almost as much as the kero heater in the kitchen...
  Gman_86 Chief Commissioner

Location: Melton, where the sparks dare not roam!
So in otherwords, instead of having 3 bins at home, we should have 7.

As a country we must take responsibility for the waste we are generating, we can't
Gman_86
You are 100% right Gman. But it ain't gonna happen! a) the pollies don't have the guts to implement it and b) most people are too dumb or just plain lazy to do it.

Just last week I opened the recycling bin at the GF's Melbourne flat to find that one of the neighbours whose bin was full had filled her Yellow lid bin with garbage. Not recyclables but garbage - food scraps, an old makeup case etc etc.

So if I had not pulled it all out and thrown it on the the ground that would have contaminated another load of recyclables.

Pathetic.

BG
"BrentonGolding"


Tell me about it, I drive a truck in the commercial waste industry for a living, predominantly cardboard/ paper bins for businesses all over Melbourne. The amount of bins that are contaminated with food waste, near empty drinks bottles, small plastic bags of dogs you know what. 95% of the time it is bins left out overnight for collection that have been 100% clean when the customer has left them out, only for some ignorant cretin to just throw their rubbish in as they walk past. It isn't unheard of for some of these amoebas to even break locks on the bins just so they can throw their rubbish in there.

That said, it is a cultural issue and we will need to adress it. Government won't have a choice, neither will the public. Especially when it reaches their lower lip.
  Gman_86 Chief Commissioner

Location: Melton, where the sparks dare not roam!
Australians are inherently slack and won't give two hoots about this.  I know they do this sort of thing i think in Japan, but it will never work as our mindset is just not right for this...
"james.au"


Unfortunately I agree with you.

It's not just that Aussies are slack, it's also the cultural attitude by a large subset of the community that sees many people bristle up at the thought of being told they have to do anything, regardless of how simple it may be. This hurdle is one too many I fear.

It well may prove our undoing as a society.

Not a cheery thought.
  allan Chief Commissioner

Maybe it's time we stopped importing non-biodegradable packaging - a fair whack of it comes from China, anyway.
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
:idea:Stupid Idea Idea
How about we rail it to the Latrobe Vally, I hear they have some giant holes that need filling (ignore the methane after affect). It'll create Jobs and Growth!

Back on topic all of the above is right, we are too lazy and through it under the rug to the PRC. I GET PISSED When my parents put the wrong stuff the recycling.
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
Back on topic all of the above is right, we are too lazy and through it under the rug to the PRC. I GET PISSED When my parents put the wrong stuff the recycling.
Dangersdan707
Whereas I get pissed AND THEN put the wrong stuff in the recycling!

BG
  LancedDendrite Chief Commissioner

Location: Gheringhap Loop Autonomous Zone
Government should mandate recycling and if the private sector can't do it on a commercial basis then a levy should be introduced on all packaging to pay for it.
BrentonGolding
Didn't SA do this back in the 70s with cans and glass bottles? Maybe it's still a good idea, I dunno. I hear those Croweaters drink beer (and water...) with floaty bits in it, so maybe they just did it because the sediment told them to.

Moving on to a different kind of joke - the Victorian Government is sitting on $531 million of landfill levy revenue that is ostensibly to be used for reducing the amount of waste going to landfill. That could be used to help develop more uses for existing recycled material and to encourage more recycling instead of just being used to plump up the State Treasury's credit rating...

Here's a thought: soft plastics can be recycled into composite railway sleepers. The State Government could spend some of that landfill levy money to help get those sleepers mainline-qualified faster and to scale up production. Perhaps it could even direct (and fund) V/Line to purchase a couple million of them to replace timber sleepers and turnout bearers across its network!

They should just burn what they can't sell. But there's not much leadership and too much red-tape and NIMBYism in this country to make it happen
Carnot
Incinerating waste isn't aren't an inherently bad idea, but we need to look at using better technology to do it. Oh, and at the end of the day you're just sending extra waste into the atmosphere...
Plasma waste gasification is interesting, although it needs a bit more work to scale it up.
  allan Chief Commissioner

Didn't SA do this back in the 70s with cans and glass bottles? Maybe it's still a good idea, I dunno. I hear those Croweaters drink beer (and water...) with floaty bits in it, so maybe they just did it because the sediment told them to.
LancedDendrite
The SA recycling system works well, and will not be an election issue. Filtration has removed the "floaty bits" from the water, but Cooper's Ale still has sediment - and long may it do so!
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
Government should mandate recycling and if the private sector can't do it on a commercial basis then a levy should be introduced on all packaging to pay for it.
Didn't SA do this back in the 70s with cans and glass bottles? Maybe it's still a good idea, I dunno. I hear those Croweaters drink beer (and water...) with floaty bits in it, so maybe they just did it because the sediment told them to.
LancedDendrite
I was wondering about this earlier LD. I grew up in SA with the container deposit system, most Sunday evenings and / or Monday afternoons would see us kids cycling through the Belair National Park rifling through horrible bins looking for cans or even better the holy grail - a 1L (or were they 750ml?) glass soft drink bottle as they were worth 20c!

But that legislation was done as a KESAB (keep SA beautiful) thing to encourage people to pick up the rubbish I think.

I don't know if any of it actually went in to funding recycling.

Of course the huge increase in items being collected might have spurned some sort of better recycling industry that what other states had, I would love to know how it works in the "back end"

BG

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