B set introduction set back?

 
  TrainLover222 Junior Train Controller

Location: ...And then all stations to Central
It has been widely reported for a while now that B1 will enter service in June, which is (obviously) also expected to bring the final withdrawal of S sets from passenger service with it. However, something caught my eye in a very recent video courtesy of TfNSW:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ayBGq42RYA


If you fast-forward to the 1:20 mark, it states the new trains are "expected into service late 2018." If this is true, it begs some questions. Why would the B sets, which are merely a tweaked variation of the Waratah trains, which have already been extensively tested, be set back? I heard of the train developing some issues upon returning from testing, but it didn't seem very significant at all.

I wouldn't be surprised if it was just a mistake. Anyways, I just wanted to put this info out there.

(P.S. there have been quite a few alerts of track work on the Richmond Line posted on the TfNSW website. I quite suspicious that "track work" is secret code for B set testing...)

Thanks

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  simstrain Chief Commissioner

That video is old and the train in that video is not a B set but an a set.
  TrainLover222 Junior Train Controller

Location: ...And then all stations to Central
That video is old and the train in that video is not a B set but an a set.
simstrain
It was just published and I guarantee you it's a B set. When the A sets were unloaded they had no cabs as those were to be fitted as part of the final assembly/fitting-out at Cardiff. This time, the cabs have already been fitted and Downer Rail is playing a smaller role in the final assembly of the trains.

Thanks
  nswtrains Chief Commissioner

That video is old and the train in that video is not a B set but an a set.
It was just published and I guarantee you it's a B set. When the A sets were unloaded they had no cabs as those were to be fitted as part of the final assembly/fitting-out at Cardiff. This time, the cabs have already been fitted and Downer Rail is playing a smaller role in the final assembly of the trains.

Thanks
TrainLover222
I agree its an A set. Do you mean the introduction has been set back or there is a set back concerning the A set. I think you are reading too much into it. I think you will find B1 will be out and about as soon as possible and if it is OK the rest will follow late 2018, early 2019.

You may find there are significant difference with the propulsion electronics etc and care has to be taken that they do not interfere with the signaling system.
  Myrtone Chief Commissioner

Location: North Carlton, Melbourne, Victoria
There may be priority seats and wheelchair spaces, but one thing they still don't have is an on-board wheelchair lift. I have seen a photo of such a lift taken onboard a double decker train built for Moscow.
  justapassenger Chief Commissioner

Sydney has level boarding, they don't need wheelchair lifts.
  Myrtone Chief Commissioner

Location: North Carlton, Melbourne, Victoria
I mean in-vehicle ones, not at doors. They may be useful on double decker trains for the level changes inside each carriage.
  justapassenger Chief Commissioner

Possibly for a long intercity journey like the Moscow-Sochi route where the Russian double-decker trains are used in case different facilities are spread throughout the trains, but not on the Sydney Trains network where the accomodation for people in wheelchairs is at the same height as they board at.
  Myrtone Chief Commissioner

Location: North Carlton, Melbourne, Victoria
It does allow the wheelchair bound to access more of each carriage and move between vestibules of each carriage.
  Matthew Train Controller

It does allow the wheelchair bound to access more of each carriage and move between vestibules of each carriage.
Myrtone

I've seen Dutch 'deckers with internal lifts, but they were NOT for mobility-impaired passengers, it was for the catering trolley. The lifts were basically 'dumb waiters' and only suitable and sized for, the catering trolley.

NS stopped proving a trolley service during the build of that series of trains and the later examples no longer had the lift.

Sydney just needs to get the track and platform levels sorted out. Some stations are near perfect, others are dangerous even for able-bodied people. Unfortunately, the only way to fix the worst stations would be to close or move them (if there is some non-windy track nearby to move to).
  M636C Minister for Railways

The video shows an A set being unloaded.
Probably one of the two replacement sets A1 or A80 which I think were delivered complete from China.

Incidentally, set B1 is numbered:

D1101 N1501 N1701 T1301 T1401 N1801 N1601 D1201

Like the A sets, all the cars with odd second digits are at one end and those with even second digits at the other.

Peter
  justapassenger Chief Commissioner

It does allow the wheelchair bound to access more of each carriage and move between vestibules of each carriage.
Myrtone
Why on earth would a passenger using a wheelchair (not "the wheelchair bound") need to access the centre section with the upper and lower areas of seating? Have you actually been on a train in Sydney and seen those sections of the carriages for yourself?

Best practice is that passengers who are not capable of moving about the train unassisted should stay in the part of the train designed to accomodate their needs, so that the staff know where they are when it comes time to assist them in alighting from the train or in the event of an emergency.

In the particular case of a passenger using a wheelchair, best practice dictates that the wheelchair be parked in the appropriate space with the brakes locked on while the train is in motion. Many public transport systems will actually have notices posted which make this a legal requirement. If they are roaming around without assistance and the train brakes or accelerates suddenly, they could career out of control and cause injury to themselves and other passengers.
  Myrtone Chief Commissioner

Location: North Carlton, Melbourne, Victoria
Why on earth would a passenger using a wheelchair (not "the wheelchair bound") need to access the centre section with the upper and lower areas of seating? Have you actually been on a train in Sydney and seen those sections of the carriages for yourself?
justapassenger
This is like asking why do we need new trams to be 100% low floor (as opposed to only part low floor). It lets the wheelchair bound move about from end to end just as they can in a single decker carriage, or even an entire single decker train.

Best practice is that passengers who are not capable of moving about the train unassisted should stay in the part of the train designed to accomodate their needs, so that the staff know where they are when it comes time to assist them in alighting from the train or in the event of an emergency.
justapassenger
This is a breezy comment, often made by people with no mobility problems.

In the particular case of a passenger using a wheelchair, best practice dictates that the wheelchair be parked in the appropriate space with the brakes locked on while the train is in motion. Many public transport systems will actually have notices posted which make this a legal requirement. If they are roaming around without assistance and the train brakes or accelerates suddenly, they could career out of control and cause injury to themselves and other passengers.
justapassenger
I'm sure many of the wheelchair bound would really like a better alternative to this.
  TrainLover222 Junior Train Controller

Location: ...And then all stations to Central
I'm sure many of the wheelchair bound would really like a better alternative to this.
Myrtone
Our trains can already accomodate those who have disabilities. Fact is that is more convenient for them and other passengers to be near the doors in the gondola area, where there is already priority seating for them. At least, that's my take
  Myrtone Chief Commissioner

Location: North Carlton, Melbourne, Victoria
If you know anyone with limited mobility, please show this thread to them. There may not be priority seating elsewhere, but this is about allowing the wheelchair bound to move along them train just as other passengers can.
  justapassenger Chief Commissioner

It lets the wheelchair bound move about from end to end just as they can in a single decker carriage, or even an entire single decker train.
Myrtone
Actual people who use a wheelchair care more about having appropriately equipped accomodation where they can sit for the entirety of the journey, not about roaming around the train.

Even the majority of people who don't use a wheelchair only care about having the ability to move into and out of a seat, not getting in their daily fitness training by running shuttles up and down the train.

This is a breezy comment, often made by people with no mobility problems.
Myrtone
As a regular companion of a passenger who travels on trains with a wheelchair, I feel I am in a far greater position to comment on train travel arrangements for passengers using wheelchairs and other mobility aids.

When we are out and about on public transport together, we use the designated spaces because they are the only part of the train/bus/tram which has been fitted out with the appropriate equipment - the specification of which is developed with input from actual people who use a variety of different mobility aids. The brakes are also applied because the risk of a wheelchair taking off under sudden braking is very real.

You don't have clue, as highlighted by this next bit:
I'm sure many of the wheelchair bound would really like a better alternative to this.
Myrtone The Moron
Refer to a person using a wheelchair as "the wheelchair bound" to their face and you will have your error corrected in a fashion far less gentle than my first attempt a few posts back. Many people who use a wheelchair have quite well developed upper body strength, enough that you would stand a chance of becoming "the soup eater."
  Myrtone Chief Commissioner

Location: North Carlton, Melbourne, Victoria
Actual people who use a wheelchair care more about having appropriately equipped accomodation where they can sit for the entirety of the journey, not about roaming around the train.
justapassenger
Then why are so many new trams 100% low floor? It's the same with many new buses in Europe.

Even the majority of people who don't use a wheelchair only care about having the ability to move into and out of a seat, not getting in their daily fitness training by running shuttles up and down the train.
justapassenger
So why then are nearly all trains walk-through, and this includes all new trains in my lifetime? Why is it so important to have gangways between carriages?

As a regular companion of a passenger who travels on trains with a wheelchair, I feel I am in a far greater position to comment on train travel arrangements for passengers using wheelchairs and other mobility aids.
justapassenger
Do we need new trams to be 100% low floor or not? I had no idea you travelled with someone in a wheelchair.

When we are out and about on public transport together, we use the designated spaces because they are the only part of the train/bus/tram which has been fitted out with the appropriate equipment - the specification of which is developed with input from actual people who use a variety of different mobility aids. The brakes are also applied because the risk of a wheelchair taking off under sudden braking is very real.
justapassenger
One idea is for most or all seats to be tip-up seats as is the case on the Eurotram in both Strasbourg and Porto, that way the wheelchair-bound can have a greater choice of which space to use.

Refer to a person using a wheelchair as "the wheelchair bound" to their face and you will have your error corrected in a fashion far less gentle than my first attempt a few posts back. Many people who use a wheelchair have quite well developed upper body strength, enough that you would stand a chance of becoming "the soup eater."
By wheelchair bound, I really mean unable to walk at all, and that really is the term. Things might be different for those who use a wheelchair be can still walk to a limited extent.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
Actual people who use a wheelchair care more about having appropriately equipped accomodation where they can sit for the entirety of the journey, not about roaming around the train.
Then why are so many new trams 100% low floor? It's the same with many new buses in Europe.

Even the majority of people who don't use a wheelchair only care about having the ability to move into and out of a seat, not getting in their daily fitness training by running shuttles up and down the train.
So why then are nearly all trains walk-through, and this includes all new trains in my lifetime? Why is it so important to have gangways between carriages?

As a regular companion of a passenger who travels on trains with a wheelchair, I feel I am in a far greater position to comment on train travel arrangements for passengers using wheelchairs and other mobility aids.
Do we need new trams to be 100% low floor or not? I had no idea you travelled with someone in a wheelchair.

When we are out and about on public transport together, we use the designated spaces because they are the only part of the train/bus/tram which has been fitted out with the appropriate equipment - the specification of which is developed with input from actual people who use a variety of different mobility aids. The brakes are also applied because the risk of a wheelchair taking off under sudden braking is very real.
One idea is for most or all seats to be tip-up seats as is the case on the Eurotram in both Strasbourg and Porto, that way the wheelchair-bound can have a greater choice of which space to use.

Refer to a person using a wheelchair as "the wheelchair bound" to their face and you will have your error corrected in a fashion far less gentle than my first attempt a few posts back. Many people who use a wheelchair have quite well developed upper body strength, enough that you would stand a chance of becoming "the soup eater."
By wheelchair bound, I really mean unable to walk at all, and that really is the term. Things might be different for those who use a wheelchair be can still walk to a limited extent.
Myrtone
Trams and buses are low floor to simply allow a wheel chair and people with limited mobility onto the bus. You may not remember buses where the entrance was a steep set of 2-3 stairs ontop of the step up from the road. It wasn't easy for a large portion of the population including women in heels and long skirts, small children, frail, elderly etc. You will also notice on buses the low floor doesn't usually extend far past the rear/middle door due to the drive train. And on many low floor buses you cannot push a wheel chair past the first few seats anyway.

DD trains and not suitable for access by those bound by wheel chairs along the train. The cost is simply horrific to do so and completely unnecessary and its completely absurd to expect there to be a need. Even recent model SD trains without inter-carriage connections are not suitable for moving from car to car.

Many a normal SD train without Longitudinal seating it would not be possible to push a wheel chair between the lateral seating and hence why even on SD trains there is a carriage marked for wheel chair access as the seating is longitudinal and often "special equipment" to help secure the wheel chair.

In Italy, where the long distance DD trains don't have large platform height middle areas, they have a few cars with a ramp to the lower level and I saw a guard assist a young women with significant mobility issues but still walking and tell others to move on. I thought the train design and support provided by the guard was excellent. She had access to the train, somewhere to sit and onboard staff providing excellent customer service, what else do you need?
  tonyp Chief Commissioner

Location: Shoalhaven
I'm sure many of the wheelchair bound would really like a better alternative to this.
Our trains can already accomodate those who have disabilities. Fact is that is more convenient for them and other passengers to be near the doors in the gondola area, where there is already priority seating for them. At least, that's my take
TrainLover222
The gondola is actually the double-deck "drop-centre" section of the car between the bogies, not the normal-height floor levels at the ends of the car.

I agree with what you're saying though. One factor that's important for mobility-impaired people (including in wheelchairs) is to be near a door. That's why the priority seating/spaces are typically near doors in public transport vehicles and goodness knows that there are typically not enough doors in most Australian public transport vehicles, the Sydney double deckers being a prime example. It's hard enough for a fully-mobile person to fight their way through a dense crowd to get to a door - for a wheelchair-user etc it adds yet another hardship and a possible missed stop. It's just plain common sense to have the designated spaces near doors.

So they're doing the right thing as it stands.
  Myrtone Chief Commissioner

Location: North Carlton, Melbourne, Victoria
Trams and buses are low floor to simply allow a wheel chair and people with limited mobility onto the bus. You may not remember buses where the entrance was a steep set of 2-3 stairs ontop of the step up from the road. It wasn't easy for a large portion of the population including women in heels and long skirts, small children, frail, elderly etc. You will also notice on buses the low floor doesn't usually extend far past the rear/middle door due to the drive train. And on many low floor buses you cannot push a wheel chair past the first few seats anyway.
RTT_Rules
My question is do we need new trams to be 100% low floor, not why trams and buses are low floor. Even partial low floor is enough simply to allow people with limited mobility, especially the wheelchair-bound, yet many new trams are 100% low floor or nearly so.

DD trains and not suitable for access by those bound by wheel chairs along the train. The cost is simply horrific to do so and completely unnecessary and its completely absurd to expect there to be a need. Even recent model SD trains without inter-carriage connections are not suitable for moving from car to car.
RTT_Rules
This can't all right because there are double decker trains elsewhere in the world which do have in-vehicle wheelchair lifts. Also, this is another beezy comment about accessibility.

Many a normal SD train without Longitudinal seating it would not be possible to push a wheel chair between the lateral seating and hence why even on SD trains there is a carriage marked for wheel chair access as the seating is longitudinal and often "special equipment" to help secure the wheel chair.
RTT_Rules
See this photo:


Notice how wide the aisle is. Do you guys really not think a compact and narrow wheelchair could move through there?
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
Trams are not long enough to stuff around with different heights and adding internal steps for the sake of it is pointless and a hazard.

I've caught a number of DD trains around world and yet to get one one with a lift, I suspect you are probably talking about the US long distance cars which is irrelevant.

As others have said its better for mobility impaired to be focused in one location on the train so staff can assist for easily and more efficiently rather than look down a 160m long train.

That is a photo of a Xtrap that has everything you oppose in the Metro thread so best keep those crap responses to yourself.
  Myrtone Chief Commissioner

Location: North Carlton, Melbourne, Victoria
Trams are not long enough to stuff around with different heights and adding internal steps for the sake of it is pointless and a hazard.
RTT_Rules
That can't be right, first of all, most buses are shorter and they are part high floor, also some new trams do have part high floor.

I've caught a number of DD trains around world and yet to get one one with a lift, I suspect you are probably talking about the US long distance cars which is irrelevant.
RTT_Rules
Nope, a European one built for Russia.

As others have said its better for mobility impaired to be focused in one location on the train so staff can assist for easily and more efficiently rather than look down a 160m long train.
RTT_Rules
Before the days of low floor trams and later buses, it used to be thought it was better for the mobility imparied to use special paratransit vehicles rather than be accomodated on regular street transit. Now that's no longer accepted.
Also, on some railway networks, especially on all newbuild systems, it is possible to get on and off in a wheelchair without assistance. Who says this viewpoint will always be accepted?

That is a photo of a Xtrap that has everything you oppose in the Metro thread...[snip]
RTT_Rules
Actually I'm not firmly against it. The problem that many people living in the Sydney area have is with forcing more interchanges than currently and with replacing larger trains with smaller ones, and that's definitely not being done elsewhere in the world. Yes, there are some newbuild metros, but not in cities with large, electrified suburban rail networks. And some extensions to existing metro systems, as with one new line in Paris, but they are always at the same loading gauge as exsiting ones or wider.

While having lots of seats is a good idea on trains running suburban distances with suburban station spacing, I believe that the mobility imparied are better off if they have access to as much of the transit vehicle as practical.
  justapassenger Chief Commissioner

My question is do we need new trams to be 100% low floor, not why trams and buses are low floor. Even partial low floor is enough simply to allow people with limited mobility, especially the wheelchair-bound, yet many new trams are 100% low floor or nearly so.
Myrtone
I suspect this is actually just whatabouttery, but I'll indulge the question.

Different approaches are taken on trams (total length 20-40 metres) and trains (total length can be 200+ metres) because the different situation demands a different method of balancing priorities.

Nuance is a bit of a blind spot for you. I hope that as you mature (perhaps when you approach the second half of your teen years?) you will begin to appreciate this and develop effective strategies for investigating the reasons behind different approaches being taken in different situations.

This can't all right because there are double decker trains elsewhere in the world which do have in-vehicle wheelchair lifts.
Myrtone
Really? The only examples I can find are machine-operated hoists for entry/exit where there is a large difference in height between the platform and the train.

Even the new Russian intercity sleeper cars you mentioned don't have them, a quick bit of research revealed that the lift in the dining car is only for a catering trolley, and that their approach to accomodating passengers with disabilities is to have one car set up to provide appropriate accomodation.

Far better to design new trains and stations for level entry additional aids such as wheelchair lifts are unnecessary - not least because access is impaired if the lift is out of service. Where level entry is not possible, the next-best option is a small enough difference in height that a manually deployed ramp can be used rather than a machine-operated hoist which will need regular maintenance.

Notice how wide the aisle is. Do you guys really not think a compact and narrow wheelchair could move through there?
Myrtone
Yes, but actual people who use wheelchairs don't actually use them. They prefer to enter at the door closest to the accomodation which has been specified to suit their needs (so as to minimise the need to fight through a crowd to get to their accomodation) and which will usually have external markings to indicate the best point to board.

I note that the photo you supplied does not have any grab bars or railings at the appropriate height for a person in a wheelchair to use, so they couldn't move along the aisle while the train is in motion.

A wide aisle is specified on certain rolling stock to facilitate extra standing space, not to facilitate wheelchair movement.

By wheelchair bound [sic], I really mean unable to walk at all, and that really is the term. Things might be different for those who use a wheelchair be can still walk to a limited extent.
Myrtone
It is not the term. You have been corrected on this multiple times and still refuse to accept the correction, which is not an endearing reflection on you as a person.

If you actually did some research before making a reply (a quite consistent theme), you would have found that actual people who use wheelchairs prefer that this outdated term not be used.

From the fact sheet on language produced by the Australian Network on Disability:
People are not ‘bound’ by their wheelchairs
The term wheelchair-bound is one that is commonly used in mainstream media, and it is one that really irritates (and often offends) many people with disability, and anyone with any knowledge of the Social Model of disability. A person who uses a wheelchair is not bound by the chair; they are enabled and liberated by it, it can become an extension of their body. “Confined to a wheelchair” is equally as negative. AND uses “wheelchair user” or “person who uses a wheelchair”, instead.

Deliberately using offensive language despite being firmly corrected multiple times is called “being a jerk.”

As you grow up you will discover that being a jerk online can have real world consequences, for example being fired if you make offensive posts using a computer/device provided by your workplace.
  justapassenger Chief Commissioner

Trams are not long enough to stuff around with different heights and adding internal steps for the sake of it is pointless and a hazard.
RTT_Rules
That can't be right, first of all, most buses are shorter and they are part high floor, also some new trams do have part high floor.
Myrtone
The raised rear section in a bus is not added for the sake of it, it only exists as a compromise to the allow the engine to go somewhere. As electric traction is deployed more in buses, we will start to see bus designs with a greater proportion of low floor section.

Once again, either nuance is your blind spot or you're deliberately being a disingenuous little turd. Everything points towards the latter.

I've caught a number of DD trains around world and yet to get one one with a lift, I suspect you are probably talking about the US long distance cars which is irrelevant.
RTT_Rules
Nope, a European one built for Russia.
Myrtone
LIE.

While having lots of seats is a good idea on trains running suburban distances with suburban station spacing, I believe that the mobility impaired [sic] are better off if they have access to as much of the transit vehicle as practical.
Myrtone
That is not actually the view shared by actual people who use a wheelchair on board public transport. They prefer to get on board and have as close as possible to direct entry to the accomodation fitted out for their needs.

You should get to know some before you start speaking for them, or using outdated and offensive terms.
  Myrtone Chief Commissioner

Location: North Carlton, Melbourne, Victoria
I suspect this is actually just whatabouttery, but I'll indulge the question.
justapassenger
Our Dubai resident answered or at least tried to, but was inconsistant with the fact that some low floor trams and especially most low floor buses do have part high floor.

Different approaches are taken on trams (total length 20-40 metres) and trains (total length can be 200+ metres) because the different situation demands a different method of balancing priorities.
justapassenger
How about someone bother to explain this in as much detail as they can.

Nuance is a bit of a blind spot for you. I hope that as you mature (perhaps when you approach the second half of your teen years?) you will begin to appreciate this and develop effective strategies for investigating the reasons behind different approaches being taken in different situations.
justapassenger
I am an adult and have been posting here since 2007. This is pathetcially rude.

Really? The only examples I can find are machine-operated hoists for entry/exit where there is a large difference in height between the platform and the train.
justapassenger
See below.

Even the new Russian intercity sleeper cars you mentioned don't have them, a quick bit of research revealed that the lift in the dining car is only for a catering trolley, and that their approach to accomodating passengers with disabilities is to have one car set up to provide appropriate accomodation.
justapassenger
This blog mentions the idea and does claim the Russian double deckers have them.

Far better to design new trains and stations for level entry additional aids such as wheelchair lifts are unnecessary - not least because access is impaired if the lift is out of service. Where level entry is not possible, the next-best option is a small enough difference in height that a manually deployed ramp can be used rather than a machine-operated hoist which will need regular maintenance.
justapassenger
And wherever possible, there will be level entry through all doors, so wheelchairs can go through any of them.

Yes, but actual people who use wheelchairs don't actually use them. They prefer to enter at the door closest to the accommodation which has been specified to suit their needs (so as to minimise the need to fight through a crowd to get to their accommodation) and which will usually have external markings to indicate the best point to board.
justapassenger
Maybe things will change as wheelchair accommodation is provided more widely onboard.

I note that the photo you supplied does not have any grab bars or railings at the appropriate height for a person in a wheelchair to use, so they couldn't move along the aisle while the train is in motion.
justapassenger
Maybe new trains should have them.

A wide aisle is specified on certain rolling stock to facilitate extra standing space, not to facilitate wheelchair movement.
justapassenger
Whatever the reason it is specified, it could be useful for those in wheelchairs if the handrails are at the appropriate height.

It is not the term. You have been corrected on this multiple times and still refuse to accept the correction, which is not an endearing reflection on you as a person.
justapassenger
You are the only one who corrected me, you only did so once, yet you claim I have been corrected multiple times.

If you actually did some research before making a reply (a quite consistent theme), you would have found that actual people who use wheelchairs prefer that this outdated term not be used.
justapassenger
All people who use wheelchairs? Also, some can walk limited distances, others not at all and I am observing the distinction.

Deliberately using offensive language despite being firmly corrected multiple times is called “being a jerk.”
justapassenger
I didn't deliberately use offensive language, I used language I didn't know was offensive, and I was only corrected once and responded to the correction. Can you accept I didn't know that and not tell me it's my fault?

By the way, I am aware of why most low floor buses have part high floor, I just pointed that out because it proves that buses and trams can't be too short to have steps in the aisles as our Dubai resident implied.

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