C30T RTR HO scale - Wombat Models surprise release

 
  Oscar Train Controller

I agree, colouring the lenses is going to be easier.  However, purely for the sake of showing how to open the tender I made a short video to show how it's done.  There is three tabs either side roughly located above each axle box.  The instructions say  "Just apply a slight pressure sideways on the tender and lift." I haven't tried since my last attempts but now it seems pretty easy but I needed to be firmer and rather than sideways pressure I'd perhaps describe it as a shearing motion. You kind of apply pressure with two hands in the same plane but opposite directions then unhinge the tender from the chassis.  And keep your arms on a table or the like so your hand movements are limited. Hopefully the video helps.  I still haven't bought an Ixion 32.  As their numbers dwindle I'm still unsure whether to get one of the bogied tenders or six-wheelers.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldiLuXXl_9E

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  comtrain Chief Commissioner

Location: Near Albury Wodonga
Interestingly, I talked to the people at Wombat (unfortunately no reps name on card  and I forgot )

It seems that with the changes required for their second run, and changes with tender, the factory has talked them into building a complete new tender. That's a shame because added cost to model that was supposed to be designed into it from day 1 some years ago.
We will have to wait on the results
Cheers
Rod
  DJPeters Assistant Commissioner

Interestingly, I talked to the people at Wombat (unfortunately no reps name on card  and I forgot )

It seems that with the changes required for their second run, and changes with tender, the factory has talked them into building a complete new tender. That's a shame because added cost to model that was supposed to be designed into it from day 1 some years ago.
We will have to wait on the results
Cheers
Rod
comtrain
Trouble is Rod these days design something today and it is out of date or obsolete tomorrow. But if the tenders, the 6 wheeled ones are a source of complaint then it would be better to do a new one to replace it just to stop the complaints which could hinder the sales of the models. You do not expect to buy a RTR model and have to fiddle about with something to get it to run properly.

It is actually good to see a manufacturer acting on complaints made by people about things on a model, rather than just make more of the same thing faults and all.
  NSWRcars Chief Train Controller

purely for the sake of showing how to open the tender I made a short video to show how it's done.  There is three tabs either side roughly located above each axle box.  The instructions say  "Just apply a slight pressure sideways on the tender and lift."
Oscar
Thanks Oscar, your video is excellent and shows everything I wanted to know.

Regarding the 6 and 8 wheel tenders, according to Ixion (on fb), Wombat now owns the 6-wheel tender tooling, and the companies have no reciprocal agreement to each other’s tenders.
  a6et Minister for Railways

Interestingly, I talked to the people at Wombat (unfortunately no reps name on card  and I forgot )

It seems that with the changes required for their second run, and changes with tender, the factory has talked them into building a complete new tender. That's a shame because added cost to model that was supposed to be designed into it from day 1 some years ago.
We will have to wait on the results
Cheers
Rod
Trouble is Rod these days design something today and it is out of date or obsolete tomorrow. But if the tenders, the 6 wheeled ones are a source of complaint then it would be better to do a new one to replace it just to stop the complaints which could hinder the sales of the models. You do not expect to buy a RTR model and have to fiddle about with something to get it to run properly.

It is actually good to see a manufacturer acting on complaints made by people about things on a model, rather than just make more of the same thing faults and all.
DJPeters
David

Thing is that the tenders for the 32class and that used on the 30T had some differences to them, they were not huge but enough it seems to warrant a different pattern for them in model form. In the real life of the 30T all the tenders had to have additional MR tanks fitted, and they were placed on the tender backhead between the water filler hatch and coal board, also a second one on the firemans side of the same tender. On both the 6 wheel and the 3650gal tenders it made for some cramped area especially on the 6 wheel tender. the other was not quite as bad.

With the 3650 gal tenders the wooden coal boards were moved forward to allow for the placing of the larger air tank that sat up against the coal boards, often that was not that obvious either.

While the idea of near enough is good enough, to simply put the Ixion 3650gal tender onto the 30T would simply make for a very incorrect version.  Depending on the aspect of modelling one does, to have a small tender may be good for a short haul type layout, which would be fine if replicating short branch type workings, or for shunting engines, the larger tender used on the 30T was for a purpose which was they worked longer distance type services and often replaced 32cl on the longer regional branches as well.

The superheated 30T was as good as a 32cl on many of the workings in the country regions.
  DJPeters Assistant Commissioner

I was not really saying that the tenders were different just that the current tenders need to be tinkered with to get them to run with either model so fixing that fault with them is a lot better than just ignoring it and hoping that everyone that buys a loco with these tenders has the ability to correct it. Not every one can though. The problem posted on here somewhere is wheels on the tender not revolving like they should and wheels not touching the rails so they will revolve. One person showed how he fixed the problem but the average modeller might have no idea where to even start to try and fix it.

I do agree with you about if the tenders are reasonably different to one another though that each model should have the appropriate tender to suit the locomotive in a certain era though. Rather than a near enough model.
  The railway dog Junior Train Controller

I'm getting ready to weather my Ixion 32 class, which has the identical 6 wheel tender. I've slightly thinned the centre keeper plate, moved the  contacts out of the way, lubricated it & now the centre wheel rotates. All as already mentioned here.
But now I've got half as many wheels picking up as on a bogie tender, only 4.
I thought I'd kick the coals of this thread to see if anyone's come up with any other ideas about it recently.
  Oscar Train Controller

This isn't going to be an answer you might want TRD so I apologise in advance and I understand the wish to get as many wheels powered as possible, however, Smile ..... Something to consider as an alternative. I used automatic transmission fluid on my track after seeing an American youtube video towards the beginning of this year and will swear you wont need as many contacts as you think.

My layout's in a shed, I only put track down late last year and was surprised how quickly new locos on new track started to bog down and stall at slow speed. I'd clean the track with non abrasives like cloths with metho and vaccuming but locos would soon become erratic again a week later. Then I came across that video and admittedly used too much at first on a small section because I was dubious about the claims but it worked. I wiped it down then reapplied with tiny amounts here and there and let the trains carry it around and that was months ago and I haven't reapplied.

I've got an Austrains 36 out at the moment with only 6 driving wheels as pickups and it never stalls. My main triumph is for a Casula CPH which I finished not long ago, I've got a Steam Era Models black beetle powering it without extra pickups. It weighs 112mg and never stalls, crawls along nicely, slow start and stops, I do have electrofrog points I might add. I held off getting a paybus due to concerns over too few contacts but will get one when funds allow.


Went on a search and found the video if you're interested


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmOPOcxXPjE
  NSWRcars Chief Train Controller

I used automatic transmission fluid on my track after seeing an American youtube video towards the beginning of this year and will swear you wont need as many contacts as you think.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmOPOcxXPjE
Oscar
This raises an interesting topic that probably ought to be split into a new thread.

I haven’t tried Automatic Transmission Fluid and cannot vouch for its effectiveness or otherwise, but the first question I’d be asking is: what effect does it have on traction of locomotives?

Same could be discussed about other products, such as Peco Power-Lube, and another popular one the name of which escapes me, maybe Rail-Zip?
  NSWRcars Chief Train Controller

I'm getting ready to weather my Ixion 32 class, which has the identical 6 wheel tender. I've slightly thinned the centre keeper plate, moved the  contacts out of the way, lubricated it & now the centre wheel rotates. All as already mentioned here.
But now I've got half as many wheels picking up as on a bogie tender, only 4.
I thought I'd kick the coals of this thread to see if anyone's come up with any other ideas about it recently.
The railway dog
I don’t understand your reference to the bogie tender – you only have 6 wheels to work with. I don’t think 4-wheel pick-up on the tender is such a problem - even with that set-up the loco has ten wheels for electrical pickup spread over about 120mm wheelbase.

By the way, after successfully removing the tender top on mine, I painted the LEDs directly with Humbrol No.9 Tan, and their colour and brightness is vastly improved. Similar treatment applied to other LEDs on the loco (it’s an Ixion C32).
  Oscar Train Controller

I was going to ask something similar last night but after rereading I assumed TRD was making a comparison that the bogie tendered models have 14 powered wheels while the six wheel tendered ones with the modification has to do the same with 10. A bit of a reduction but I agree though, spread over that wheelbase distance it's still pretty good.

I simply haven't had any issues of stalling after ATF, but in short, yes it does affect adhesiveness negatively depending on how much is applied.  I used it well after the how much can/should it pull questions were raised but I will leave that for another thread.

Good to know about the LED treatment, will have to keep that in mind. I've switched them off for the time being but would particularly like to dull the headlights.
  NSWRcars Chief Train Controller

Good to know about the LED treatment, will have to keep that in mind. I've switched them off for the time being but would particularly like to dull the headlights.
Oscar

Re LED painting, I needed two coats of Gloss Tan to get them down to a believable brightness and colour. With the loco headlamp, one coat was enough, and I also painted the surrounding (green) PCB light grey, and frosted the inside of the headlamp glass with abrasive paper. Looks good.

I have also done some work on weighting and springing the Ixion C32, which could be similarly useful for the unbalanced Wombat C30T. Using lead sheet, I have so far increased its weight by 15 grams entirely concealed within the driving wheelbase. A small but useful gain. I’ll post more details when I have completed the work, maybe in the Ixion thread.
  The railway dog Junior Train Controller

Oscar & NSWRcars

Yes, the reference to a bogie tender was simply to highlight the reduction in wheel pickup with the modified 6 wheel tender.
Since my loco will only be hauling light trains I'll probably put more weight in the tender to increase the adhesion, hoping for better contact.
Another thing, after disconnecting the loco & tender a few times the pushin loco/tender connector seems a bit loose. Any opinions on that?
  NSWRcars Chief Train Controller

Since my loco will only be hauling light trains I'll probably put more weight in the tender to increase the adhesion, hoping for better contact.
Another thing, after disconnecting the loco & tender a few times the pushin loco/tender connector seems a bit loose. Any opinions on that?
The railway dog
On my 6 wheel tender I added a coal load that increased its weight by 9 grams. Doesn't seem to unduly affect tractive effort.
I have had some issues with poor contact of the loco-tender connector. I cleared some flashing that was preventing the connector from fully seating, but I have not run the loco since, to say whether that repair has been a success. Really need a storage box where I can leave the loco and tender permanently coupled.
  The railway dog Junior Train Controller

The connections on both my tenders seem a bit loose. They seem to work loose in service. A favourite is for the loco to stand still making chuffing noises. I've tried using Blu tak to secure them with some success.

Oscar
In a post on pg4 you mention that while the engine won't run without the tender connected electrically, it'll run without the tender picking up current? I'll try this tomorrow, too cold tonight to go out to the train room. If that's so then I agree that losing the pickup from the centre wheelset shouldn't matter much.

And thanks for the piece about track cleaning with transmission fluid. I think there's some in the boot of the Olden Holden. Will investigate.
  Oscar Train Controller


Oscar
In a post on pg4 you mention that while the engine won't run without the tender connected electrically, it'll run without the tender picking up current?
The railway dog

Yeah absolutely. I assume all contacts go into the tender, connects to the board and/or DCC chip, then out again to the motor. So although the tender doesn't need to be on the track, it still needs the plug connected.

Because I'm DC I've wanted to bypass the board for motor control and just run a couple of wires from motor to engine pickups due to these engines requiring a bit of 'tricity to build up before they jump to life. YT vids show the model start smoothly in DCC but they don't in DC. However they do slow very nicely to a halt in DC. I haven't tried this mod yet, but will for the few DC'ers remaining.

Also, regarding the plugs working their way loose, mine have done the same and one in particular has a shorter lead so it didn't like corners and lights would flicker then come back on whilst on a reverse curve or straight. To fix this I used a very small flat blade screwdriver, ie jewellers/watchmaker type that everyone has and put it between every second pair of pins and twisted the screwdriver a little to bend the pins a fraction and that worked. Of course you want to do it very slightly so be cautious but on my first go the pins still lined up even if a little skewed and the plug stayed put.
  The railway dog Junior Train Controller

Thanks Oscar. I use DCC (for the noise factor only, I just run 1 train at a time). Wiring these days is getting a bit complex for DC. A couple of wires to the motor, those were the days.
  DJPeters Assistant Commissioner

I had a Trainorama 930 just stop dead on me on DC one day and I could not figure out why. So I tested all the pick ups after disconnecting the circuit board in it and all were picking up nicely, I then powered the motor on straight DC and it ran beautifully, not a flicker, never missed a beat. So I removed the circuit board in it and straight wired the pickups to the motor and it continued to run as if nothing had ever happened. Something on the circuit board failed but what. As the loco was only going to be used on a DC exhibition type of layout it lasted another 6 months or more of near continually operation 7 days a week from 10 am to 5 pm every day.

I had to sacrifice the lights etc in it but that was no big deal as long as it ran.

In fact it ran a bit better without the circuit board in it because the electronics in it required a few volts of power before it would move away, but after all the voltage went straight to the motor and it responded better to the simple controllers we had powering it which was a old H&M Duette.
  NSWRcars Chief Train Controller

Because I'm DC I've wanted to bypass the board for motor control and just run a couple of wires from motor to engine pickups due to these engines requiring a bit of 'tricity to build up before they jump to life. YT vids show the model start smoothly in DCC but they don't in DC. However they do slow very nicely to a halt in DC. I haven't tried this mod yet, but will for the few DC'ers remaining.
Oscar
I am also a straight DC operator, using Gaugemaster transistor throttles. I don’t like the starting characteristics of the Ixion C32, as Oscar says, it jumps to life and throws the passengers out of their seats. They could be excused for thinking there is a 46 class electric up front. Not sure what the fix might be? I assume these issues apply equally to the Wombat C30T – the chassis and mech are near identical.
  Oscar Train Controller

Hmm, that's interesting that the Ixon behaves the same. I don't know when but I'll try that wiring mod soon and will let you know how I go. I too am using a GM controller and bought a Morley Vector not long ago. Same thing happens on both controllers.
  The railway dog Junior Train Controller

NSWRcars
I remember a wild ride down Cowan Bank in a rake of American Suburbans behind a 46. I thought something would break but nothing did.
  Oscar Train Controller

Because I'm DC I've wanted to bypass the board for motor control and just run a couple of wires from motor to engine pickups due to these engines requiring a bit of 'tricity to build up before they jump to life. YT vids show the model start smoothly in DCC but they don't in DC. However they do slow very nicely to a halt in DC. I haven't tried this mod yet, but will for the few DC'ers remaining.
I am also a straight DC operator, using Gaugemaster transistor throttles. I don’t like the starting characteristics of the Ixion C32, as Oscar says, it jumps to life and throws the passengers out of their seats. They could be excused for thinking there is a 46 class electric up front. Not sure what the fix might be? I assume these issues apply equally to the Wombat C30T – the chassis and mech are near identical.
NSWRcars
Bad news unfortunately. I cut wires to the plug, soldered motor wires to pickup wires and ran without the tender. The engine still jumps to a start but slows well. In other words, no different to before.

With before and after testing the motor wont turn till just over 2 volts is reached and it progressively slows right down to 0.9 volts approx before it stalls. With the ripple output of the gaugemaster the motor hums early on but even by nudging it the loco wont move. I know pushing the loco wont encourage the motor to turn due to the worm gear setup but it did take any physical load out of the gears and motion, giving every chance for the motor to kick over, but it wouldn't till just after 2V.  

So it seems nothing on the PCBs in the tender or the one in the smokebox has anything to do with the starting speed, rather it's the stiction of the motor which for DCC is easily dealt with its much higher frequency PWM output that accounts for the more prototypical starts.  Not much else can be done I'm afraid other than getting a PWM controller, go DCC, or just compromise.  A different motor might work but I really doubt anyone would try that.

FWIW some other little things to point out. The plug's wiring for the pickups and motor were as follows, assuming pin 1 is on the left hand side and the loco moving forward.
  • Pin 1 = left track -ve pickup
  • Pin 2 = +ve tender to motor, solder tag is lower on motor
  • Pin 3 = -ve tender to motor, solder tag at top of motor
  • Pin 4 = right track +ve pickup
Pin 5 is vacant and the remaining three I presume are for cab, headlight and perhaps a common, but they go to the lighting PCB in the smokbox.

One more assumption - I assume all of the above holds true for the Ixion 32 too, but I don't know.
  Oscar Train Controller

Whilst doing the above experiment I took photos but was a bit despondent over the results so didn't post any pics. However, whilst it's all apart I'd thought I'd go ahead and track every wire and post a few pics and diagrams just to show what goes where.

The first is a close up of the PCB hidden in the smokebox and its markings and the second photo shows where all the black wires go in the loco.







The next lot shows the tender with PCB and switches being lifted then a drawn diagram mainly just showing the solder pads then a list showing what's connected to what.







A - Left rail
B - socket pin 8
C - outer pin rear marker light switch
H - socket pin 1
N - socket pin 3
Q - red wire to rear marker light plug
R - socket pin 4
S - socket pin 2
U - outer pin loco lights switch
V - socket pin 7
W - Right rail
NB: - socket pin 6 to centre pin loco lights switch
and - wire from rear marker light plug to centre pin rear light switch
  The railway dog Junior Train Controller

Changing the subject a bit, the electrical connector on the 6 wheel Wombat type tender fitted to my Ixion 32 is now so loose you can see the inner piece slopping around as (if) the loco condescends to move. I don't think I've been careless in any way. Do others have this issue?
  DJPeters Assistant Commissioner

Changing the subject a bit, the electrical connector on the 6 wheel Wombat type tender fitted to my Ixion 32 is now so loose you can see the inner piece slopping around as (if) the loco condescends to move. I don't think I've been careless in any way. Do others have this issue?
The railway dog
These type of fittings are not really designed to be removed all the time and the more you use it this way the looser it will get. They are mainly made to used on a once in a blue moon type of thing and then only if necessary. As long as the connector still conducts I would not worry that much, but at some point you might be better rewiring the tender to the loco on a more permanent basis. Most modern connectors for electronics are the same once you connect them leave them that way, unless something really happens and you have to change over a component or some such in the equipment.

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