Suburban Rail Loop (Election promise)

 
  ptvcommuter Train Controller

it's basically like the Williamstown/Altona line
True Believers
Firstly a comment like that says that you know little about Melbourne’s transport system and that you rarely use or have never used it at all.

Is this a bias against those that live on the Sandringham Line. Just because they may be upper middle class and more affluent areas, you have a problem with this

It’s one of the busier lines on the network
It isn’t like Alamein, Williamstown and Altona

I take the Frankston Line and when I’ve taken the Sandringham line because of parking closures or based on what time I wake up, it is busier on the Sandringham line

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  mejhammers1 Deputy Commissioner

it's basically like the Williamstown/Altona line
Firstly a comment like that says that you know little about Melbourne’s transport system and that you rarely use or have never used it at all.

Is this a bias against those that live on the Sandringham Line. Just because they may be upper middle class and more affluent areas, you have a problem with this

It’s one of the busier lines on the network
It isn’t like Alamein, Williamstown and Altona

I take the Frankston Line and when I’ve taken the Sandringham line because of parking closures or based on what time I wake up, it is busier on the Sandringham line
ptvcommuter
I take both lines and the Frankston line is busier then the Sandy line.

Michael
  penguin2233 Locomotive Driver

Location: Craigieburn, Melbourne VIC
I'd say both lines are very busy, due to Sandy line stopping South Yarra for school students and Frankston bringing many people into the city. People change from other lines to Sandy for school
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

Having a quick look at the 2013-14 data (the latest available) we have:

Glenhuntly-Frankston 11.32 million passengers, 19 stations, average 0.60 million/station

Prahran-Sandringham 8.66 million, 11 stations, average 0.79 million/station

So the Sandringham is arguably "busier" but the Frankston carries more passengers simply by virtue of having more stations (and I haven't included the MATH stations which are solely served by Frankston trains, either.)

This means the Frankston is a priority for additional frequency/capacity. Draw your own conclusions.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

Having a quick look at the 2013-14 data (the latest available) we have:

Glenhuntly-Frankston 11.32 million passengers, 19 stations, average 0.60 million/station

Prahran-Sandringham 8.66 million, 11 stations, average 0.79 million/station

So the Sandringham is arguably "busier" but the Frankston carries more passengers simply by virtue of having more stations (and I haven't included the MATH stations which are solely served by Frankston trains, either.)

This means the Frankston is a priority for additional frequency/capacity. Draw your own conclusions.
potatoinmymouth

I went to look at the data as well. In terms of using the public transport system Melbourne. Well I use it very often. I just haven't yet travelled the whole network yet. But I know that the busiest lines are Craigeburn / Werribee / Frankston / Cranbourne / Pakenham /Sunbury / Mernda / Ringwood group (Lilydale/Belgrave). Ones that have medium patronage Glen Waverly / Sandringham / Upfield / Hurstbridge. Quiet ones like Alemain, Williamstown & Altona.

Yes the South Kesington-Williamstown (excluding Footscray) & Altona loop totals 4.02 million passengers, 11 stations, average 0.37 million/station

Laverton-Werribee has 5.24 million, 5 stations, average 1.048 million/station

While arguably Williamstown/Altona branch is less than the Sandringham line, the main idea is to connect with the busier line.
Frankston > Sandringham
Werribee > Williamstown + Altona

SRL connects onto the busiest lines. Also note that the Frankston line is extending to Baxter, and the Werribee line is extending to Wydnham Vale in the future.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

Interesting read.

https://blogs.crikey.com.au/theurbanist/2019/03/03/suburban-rail-loop-mistake-prevented/

I do agree there are other intiatives higher ranking than the suburban rail loop.

And I agree a grid of high-capacity transit is needed.

But I disagree that the other higher intiatives are not happening because of SRL happening. They may be delayed, but not completely ignored.

In the Rail Future report, these projects are already on the governments agenda.
Like the Melton/RRL electrification (although in early studies, still reckon will happen soon)
The rail duplications/extensions
The light rail to Rowville.

Metro 2 Tunnel is the only major project not yet onto the agenda, but it will be announced within 5 years, it's been approved (not commited) on both sides of politics. This is the next priority after Metro 1.

And yes future tram extensions and bus extensions are welcome, and more rail lines too, but these are medium term options that still can happen, depending on whether the government will commit to it.

Yes we need to order much more trams. Ordering 10-20 at a time is slow. Should put in a huge order of 100-150 new high capacity trams the F class trams.

I am afraid of the lack of co-ordination of planning Victoria Infrastructure. While the SRL could be a net negative now, or when it opens. SRL would probably be worth a benefit in future time. Yes it's getting built early, and I guess people rather have it available early than later. Even though that wouldn't be the most viable way of doing it. As you know Politics doesn't provide you the most efficient transport plan, they try to push projects that benefit their votes.

My opinion is while the SRL is a good project in princible, it should of been in the transport planning in the beginning, there was no plan in place other than the PTV plan back in 2012. And several other loose bits of documents of proposals. If SRL is on the agenda, then I guess just let the busy Eastern section get built and the Airport link get built. Those sections would be alright. The RRL section can be done easily in conjuction with electrification.

The northern section should be put on hold (just build the Doncaster to Boxhill link). And build the Metro 2 instead as that would essential help the northern suburbs get that rail link to Wollert.

Even if the SRL is only partially built, it will still be benefitial. I don't think the whole section can be built by 2050, but maybe push the completion later so that higher priority projects can be delivered earlier. While still building the most important parts of the SRL.

That's my view on the matter.
  ptvcommuter Train Controller

Interesting read. https://blogs.crikey.com.au/theurbanist/2019/03/03/suburban-... I do agree there are other intiatives higher ranking than the suburban rail loop. And I agree a grid of high-capacity transit is needed. But I disagree that the other higher intiatives are not happening because of SRL happening. They may be delayed, but not completely ignored. In the Rail Future report, these projects are already on the governments agenda. Like the Melton/RRL electrification (although in early studies, still reckon will happen soon) The rail duplications/extensions The light rail to Rowville. Metro 2 Tunnel is the only major project not yet onto the agenda, but it will be announced within 5 years, it's been approved (not commited) on both sides of politics. This is the next priority after Metro 1. And yes future tram extensions and bus extensions are welcome, and more rail lines too, but these are medium term options that still can happen, depending on whether the government will commit to it. Yes we need to order much more trams. Ordering 10-20 at a time is slow. Should put in a huge order of 100-150 new high capacity trams the F class trams. I am afraid of the lack of co-ordination of planning Victoria Infrastructure. While the SRL could be a net negative now, or when it opens. SRL would probably be worth a benefit in future time. Yes it's getting built early, and I guess people rather have it available early than later. Even though that wouldn't be the most viable way of doing it. As you know Politics doesn't provide you the most efficient transport plan, they try to push projects that benefit their votes. My opinion is while the SRL is a good project in princible, it should of been in the transport planning in the beginning, there was no plan in place other than the PTV plan back in 2012. And several other loose bits of documents of proposals. If SRL is on the agenda, then I guess just let the busy Eastern section get built and the Airport link get built. Those sections would be alright. The RRL section can be done easily in conjuction with electrification. The northern section should be put on hold (just build the Doncaster to Boxhill link). And build the Metro 2 instead as that would essential help the northern suburbs get that rail link to Wollert. Even if the SRL is only partially built, it will still be benefitial. I don't think the whole section can be built by 2050, but maybe push the completion later so that higher priority projects can be delivered earlier. While still building the most important parts of the SRL. That's my view on the matter.
True Believers


Agree with everything here, Melton/Wyndham Vale Projects as well as this Rowville project will have more details released after business cases are completed. South Yarra/Caulfield To Dandenong Quadruplication is another necessary project needed ASAP as well as the introduction of 10 Minute turn up and go Services and Clyde Rail.

SRL is long term which has a good eastern section, poor northern section and they haven’t bothered to look at the  western section yet.

Like the tram initiative the High Capacity Trams (45-50/60 metres) would run on the 86/96 with Routes 1, 6, 11,  19, 57, 58, 75 and 109 getting E Class Trams, the other low floor Trams cascade onto other routes

Interested in the light metro rail futures proposal may work in the inner city serving suburbs like Cremorne, North Richmond, Brunswick, etc - for me it has great potential
  ptvcommuter Train Controller

Interesting read. https://blogs.crikey.com.au/theurbanist/2019/03/03/suburban-... I do agree there are other intiatives higher ranking than the suburban rail loop. And I agree a grid of high-capacity transit is needed. But I disagree that the other higher intiatives are not happening because of SRL happening. They may be delayed, but not completely ignored. In the Rail Future report, these projects are already on the governments agenda. Like the Melton/RRL electrification (although in early studies, still reckon will happen soon) The rail duplications/extensions The light rail to Rowville. Metro 2 Tunnel is the only major project not yet onto the agenda, but it will be announced within 5 years, it's been approved (not commited) on both sides of politics. This is the next priority after Metro 1. And yes future tram extensions and bus extensions are welcome, and more rail lines too, but these are medium term options that still can happen, depending on whether the government will commit to it. Yes we need to order much more trams. Ordering 10-20 at a time is slow. Should put in a huge order of 100-150 new high capacity trams the F class trams. I am afraid of the lack of co-ordination of planning Victoria Infrastructure. While the SRL could be a net negative now, or when it opens. SRL would probably be worth a benefit in future time. Yes it's getting built early, and I guess people rather have it available early than later. Even though that wouldn't be the most viable way of doing it. As you know Politics doesn't provide you the most efficient transport plan, they try to push projects that benefit their votes. My opinion is while the SRL is a good project in princible, it should of been in the transport planning in the beginning, there was no plan in place other than the PTV plan back in 2012. And several other loose bits of documents of proposals. If SRL is on the agenda, then I guess just let the busy Eastern section get built and the Airport link get built. Those sections would be alright. The RRL section can be done easily in conjuction with electrification. The northern section should be put on hold (just build the Doncaster to Boxhill link). And build the Metro 2 instead as that would essential help the northern suburbs get that rail link to Wollert. Even if the SRL is only partially built, it will still be benefitial. I don't think the whole section can be built by 2050, but maybe push the completion later so that higher priority projects can be delivered earlier. While still building the most important parts of the SRL. That's my view on the matter.
True Believers


Agree with everything here, Melton/Wyndham Vale Projects as well as this Rowville project will have more details released after business cases are completed. South Yarra/Caulfield To Dandenong Quadruplication is another necessary project needed ASAP as well as the introduction of 10 Minute turn up and go Services and Clyde Rail.

SRL is long term which has a good eastern section, poor northern section and they haven’t bothered to look at the  western section yet.

Like the tram initiative the High Capacity Trams (45-50/60 metres) would run on the 86/96 with Routes 1, 6, 11,  19, 57, 58, 75 and 109 getting E Class Trams, the other low floor Trams cascade onto other routes

Interested in the light metro rail futures proposal may work in the inner city serving suburbs like Cremorne, North Richmond, Brunswick, etc - for me it has great potential
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

"They haven’t bothered to look at the  western section yet."
The western section of the SRL is incoporated into the Melton/Wyndham Vale Project.
  chomper Locomotive Driver

It might end being Outer City Circle Mk2:

https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/doubt-cast-on-suburban-rail-loop-with-workers-to-be-linked-to-low-job-areas-20190311-p513bp.html
Carnot

I logged in to post this link, but was beaten to the punch.

The SRL (I sure hope they rename it) isn't just about directly connecting existing job centres on the spokes of the rail network. It gives the lone commuter in their car another option to get to work. They won't have to jump on a train and backtrack into the CBD (or nearest junction) and then change lines. If the SRL moves only 15% of car commuters off the road, it will be a raging success.

However the route definitely needs to be changed, in its current "iteration" it doesn't serve the west enough and it needs to reach Sandringham.
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

it needs to reach Sandringham.
chomper

Oh, not you too.
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
would it be cheeper to rebuild the outer circle ( or at least a section of It and incorporate it into a the loop?)
Sure you'd have to deal with nimbys and cyclists but would that be worth it?

I kind of knew that this would be too good to be true.
  Carnot Chief Commissioner

would it be cheeper to rebuild the outer circle ( or at least a section of It and incorporate it into a the loop?)
Sure you'd have to deal with nimbys and cyclists but would that be worth it?

I kind of knew that this would be too good to be true.
Dangersdan707
At least it would be guaranteed to be Broad Gauge....
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Watching ABC News Channel now online and Andrews confirmed loop will start construction in 2022.
  chomper Locomotive Driver

it needs to reach Sandringham.

Oh, not you too.
potatoinmymouth

Granted it might not have the greatest patronage in the network, why exclude it from the SRL?
  Lockie91 Train Controller

The age article is a bit of a beat up. Capturing 10% of Melbournes workforce is a great outcome. This is why it has been developed by development Victoria.

People are fixated on the current. “Its. Waste of money because everyone works in the city” This is not the reason the SRL was developed. Box Hill and Burwood hold about 2% of Melbourne’s employment and still growing. Suddenly building a new office building in Burwood or Cheltenham is a lot more attractive to developers.

This is replicated across the SRL and if we can move 10 - 15% off jobs away from the city then its had achieved its goal. If the link was about serving the current travel patterns it would of been developed by TfV.

A light rail or bus link is not going to have the same effect on development that the SRL will.

The old notion of build it and they will come applies here. Or maybe it should be build and they will develop.
  ptvcommuter Train Controller

Agree it needs to be changed. One could argue it doesn’t need to service Fawkner or Broadmeadows. It needs to connect to the Sandringham Line and it doesn’t even serve the needs of the West. There are potential for more stations as well along the route

Using the Sunshine to Airport section for SRL is pointless. How about connecting to Watergardens and Caroline Springs two huge areas. The section between Heidelberg and Airport is again not worth it, how about going through Preston, Coburg, Essendon, Essendon North and Keilor East, much better than Bundoora, Fawkner and Broadmeadows. And from Clayton towards the bay 16km of tunneling for two stations. Either redevelop Kingston/Heatherton area and from Southland to serve the established Beaumaris area or don’t bother going towards Southland, two stations doesn’t justify a lump of cash. Better off just going to Springvale, Dandenong, Braeside, Carrum Downs and Frankston than 16km for one of two stations.

Then there’s the other bit of the West only servicing Werribee from Sunshine. Connect Laverton North (industrial and employment area), Tarneit, Wyndham Vale, East Werribee and Point Cook to the western section after Sun


And for other stations along the route could be Bulleen, Box Hill South, Monash North, Burwood East and Northland

Right now the foundations are there for SRL but these sort of modifications makes it a truly great project
  chomper Locomotive Driver

Agree it needs to be changed. One could argue it doesn’t need to service Fawkner or Broadmeadows. It needs to connect to the Sandringham Line and it doesn’t even serve the needs of the West. There are potential for more stations as well along the route

Using the Sunshine to Airport section for SRL is pointless. How about connecting to Watergardens and Caroline Springs two huge areas. The section between Heidelberg and Airport is again not worth it, how about going through Preston, Coburg, Essendon, Essendon North and Keilor East, much better than Bundoora, Fawkner and Broadmeadows. And from Clayton towards the bay 16km of tunneling for two stations. Either redevelop Kingston/Heatherton area and from Southland to serve the established Beaumaris area or don’t bother going towards Southland, two stations doesn’t justify a lump of cash. Better off just going to Springvale, Dandenong, Braeside, Carrum Downs and Frankston than 16km for one of two stations.

Then there’s the other bit of the West only servicing Werribee from Sunshine. Connect Laverton North (industrial and employment area), Tarneit, Wyndham Vale, East Werribee and Point Cook to the western section after Sun


And for other stations along the route could be Bulleen, Box Hill South, Monash North, Burwood East and Northland

Right now the foundations are there for SRL but these sort of modifications makes it a truly great project
ptvcommuter

That rough route is reminiscent of the route I saw on the engineers diagrams (and which I tried to recreate).
  drunkill Junior Train Controller

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Grattan Institute is dumb and focusing on the wrong thing.

Of course it doesn't service most of the workforce (the CBD) because it aims to help shift jobs away form the CBD to these new locations.



Of course Bundoora doesn't have a big prospect for job creation in the future, it doens't need to because it has a big university which is why the station will exist there, to service the uni.

Heidelberg? Sure not heaps of growth potential there but it is near a university and is an interchange with an existing line.

Box Hill? Well the modelling for it is outdated now, because Stonnington council are activly seeking high rise development there, wanting higher buildings for more residents (ratepayers) and new offices. It will be a mini-CBD in 10 years with at least a dozen 100m+ skyscrapers.

Induced demand will occur for these areas if/when the SRL opens up.

I'm not too surprised a beatup article came out about SRL the same day ScumMo is in town to 'launch' the airport rail link funding announcement.
  penguin2233 Locomotive Driver

Location: Craigieburn, Melbourne VIC
Connecting to Broadmeadows isn't a bad idea. It is a good one. The point of SRL is to help people get to palces without having to ride into the city and back. Connecting to Broadmeadows will help people who are from Craigieburn line and the Fawkner station can benifit people on the Upfield line. Much better than a crowded SmartBus which has a major bottleneck.

And yes, I do support the idea of connecting to Sandringham
  ptvcommuter Train Controller

Of course Bundoora doesn't have a big prospect for job creation in the future, it doens't need to because it has a big university which is why the station will exist there, to service the uni.
drunkill


Extend the 86 to South Morang and you have the huge populations of Mill Park, etc that can also connect to the SRL at Bundoora.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner
  reubstar6 Chief Train Controller

Wow satire is almost indistinguishable from reality these days.
  chomper Locomotive Driver

This is completely unsubstantiated, but I overheard a couple of PTV employees this afternoon at Flinders St and they were basically saying that once the tunnel borers have done their work for Metro 1, they'll be re-tasked to start boring for the SRL, not for the MARL or Metro 2. Someone in the hierarchy wants SRL to happen as soon as possible if their conversation has any merit. It might have been April Fools banter, but who knows...

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