Show of support at Mildura passenger rail rally

 

News article: Show of support at Mildura passenger rail rally

PASSIONATE community members demanded action for a long-awaited commitment to the restoration of a passenger rail service in the region, arming themselves with signs and taking to Langtree Mall on Saturday.

  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
unable to understand that PT never runs at a profit and nor should it...
I want to pick up on this point.

In my view, PT doesnt necessarily need to recover all costs to provide it (ie it doesnt necessarily need to be financially viable).  But it certainly needs to be economically viable, ie the economic benefits of congestion reduction, added to the financial benefits for example need to be break even or better.  Otherwise, may as well take your money and burn it in Fitzroy Park as thats what youre doing with it.

The analysis probably says that this project doesnt stack up economically and so there is the answer.
Yes and issue with regional services, NO ONE can make a claim that even 2-3 x day service to a rural country town will improve congestion anywhere or make roads safer.

A few claims that Mildura line has X many huge number of LX and 385km beyond Maryborough to upgrade to suitable standard. All through an area of very low population to provide a daily service that won't exceed 3 cars worth.

Plan B - Going via Swan Hill
~345km of existing line soon to operate V/locities, current timetable is daily M-F, 2 x S-S, 4.5h travel time, additional bus service from Bendigo, assume lack of bodies to justify a actual train.

~45km of track north of Swan Hill to Pinagil to upgrade

~100km of Greenfield track between Pinagil and Ouyen to build

~100km of track from Ouyen to Mildura to upgrade to V/locity standards

Total distance ~ 590km, only marginally longer than on Mildura Line whole way.

Total track upgrade ~150km, less than half the distance than Mildura Line

Extra Travel time beyond Swan Hill is 2-2.5h each way.

Provides more direct connection to two regional major populations, but also includes Ouyen.

Down side, 100km of Greenfield railway to build across near flat land with no significant obstacles. You wouldn't even need a passing loop.

Upside on train services, 1 x Daily to Mildura can be added to 2 x daily service to Swan Hill, just add another set to existing V/locity. No extra driver needed for most of service.

Why cannot it happen now, because of a missing 100km of cheap railway line to build. Same piece of track may be of use to freight, especially freight to Manangatang, may enable the Robinvale this line to be truncated further south than Manangatang.
One slight problem exists, Called Standard gauge
Dangersdan707
Probably to late to do this now, but DG 100km of track from Ouyen to Mildura isn't a big ask if done at the same time as upgrade.

However point is taken. So what is the future of the Swan Hill/Bendigo line remaining BG? Realistically the above plan (and I know its not new) would be around 5 years away to allow other works to be concluded, funded and rolling stock purchased and delivered.   Would SH/Bendigo remain SG this long?

Alt, as a stop gap you could have an all out all change at Swan Hill for break of gauge? Not ideal, but an option, provided there was a not too longterm a plan to deal with the gauge issue.

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  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE

Ok, RTT, lets really get the big stick out and belt all this into one.

Don't stop your greenfield line at Ouyen, straight through to Murray Bridge, there's the connection from the Sunraysia to S.A ! ( that lots have talked about, freight as well )

Piangil, why not turn right, 120 k greenfield to the old Hay line, upgrade that, as well !

There you have it, a short cut Sydney to Adelaide, no freight wondering through Melbourne.

Mildura, jump on a train to Melbourne, Sydney or Adelaide.................

BigShunter.
BigShunter
I like your thinking

I assume you are talking Ouyen to Murryville (recently converted to SG), then convert the border cross section Pinnaro and reopen to Murrybridge. Seems simple and low cost enough. Used to be used for cross state regional traffic in BG days.

Question, in Google Sat view, the Ouyen line looks open to Pantyia, which is 2km from the border 17km past Murryville. Is this section to Pantyia to be upgraded or cut off?

Yes the short connection to Hay would make sense, but then you have basically 155km of track that is effectively F__ed and needs to be removed and rebuilt from ground up, so the wording of "upgrade" is misleading, basically 255km of Greenfield railway to be built with the convenience of removing 150km of a pair of rails and termite scat.

Overall, 350km of Greenfield track PLUS a short cross border section between SA/VIC to be replaced PLUS some general upgrades of the Pinnaro line and likely the 120km line from Junee to Yanaco .

Between Yanaco and Pinagil no need for passing loops, just maintenance sidings and likewise as I said before Pinagil to Ouyen. Passing loops at major junctions will do for now.

Total distance Syd to Adel via Junee, Hay, Ouyen etc is around 1350km ,
via Mel its ~1750km,
via Broken Hill ~1550km

What I like about this option is that it ties in alot of regional lines across three states that have no to low volumes of traffic currently because they only offer mono directional traffic, ie to/from their respective capital cities and completely useless for any other traffic. Its not just a city to city corridor. Not sure how much extra rail freight this would generate?

Its also interesting to note if you type in Google Adelaide to Sydney by road, the fastest route is actually almost identical to the above mentioned rail corridor via Hay and Ouyen and Pinaroo with exception going via Wagga to Hay.

What do you think, $1B to do the job to a reasonable standard building 350km of track across basically table top flat ground in basically grain country plus upgrades of some other lines feeding into it to allow 1800m freighters at half decent speeds?
  woodford Chief Commissioner


Ok, RTT, lets really get the big stick out and belt all this into one.

Don't stop your greenfield line at Ouyen, straight through to Murray Bridge, there's the connection from the Sunraysia to S.A ! ( that lots have talked about, freight as well )

Piangil, why not turn right, 120 k greenfield to the old Hay line, upgrade that, as well !

There you have it, a short cut Sydney to Adelaide, no freight wondering through Melbourne.

Mildura, jump on a train to Melbourne, Sydney or Adelaide.................

BigShunter.I like your thinking

I assume you are talking Ouyen to Murryville (recently converted to SG), then convert the border cross section Pinnaro and reopen to Murrybridge. Seems simple and low cost enough. Used to be used for cross state regional traffic in BG days.

Question, in Google Sat view, the Ouyen line looks open to Pantyia, which is 2km from the border 17km past Murryville. Is this section to Pantyia to be upgraded or cut off?

Yes the short connection to Hay would make sense, but then you have basically 155km of track that is effectively F__ed and needs to be removed and rebuilt from ground up, so the wording of "upgrade" is misleading, basically 255km of Greenfield railway to be built with the convenience of removing 150km of a pair of rails and termite scat.

Overall, 350km of Greenfield track PLUS a short cross border section between SA/VIC to be replaced PLUS some general upgrades of the Pinnaro line and likely the 120km line from Junee to Yanaco .

Between Yanaco and Pinagil no need for passing loops, just maintenance sidings and likewise as I said before Pinagil to Ouyen. Passing loops at major junctions will do for now.

Total distance Syd to Adel via Junee, Hay, Ouyen etc is around 1350km ,
via Mel its ~1750km,
via Broken Hill ~1550km

What I like about this option is that it ties in alot of regional lines across three states that have no to low volumes of traffic currently because they only offer mono directional traffic, ie to/from their respective capital cities and completely useless for any other traffic. Its not just a city to city corridor. Not sure how much extra rail freight this would generate?

Its also interesting to note if you type in Google Adelaide to Sydney by road, the fastest route is actually almost identical to the above mentioned rail corridor via Hay and Ouyen and Pinaroo with exception going via Wagga to Hay.

What do you think, $1B to do the job to a reasonable standard building 350km of track across basically table top flat ground in basically grain country plus upgrades of some other lines feeding into it to allow 1800m freighters at half decent speeds?
RTT_Rules
It would almost certainly cost a good deal more than that. Although the terrain is basicly level, the rainfall in the area is significant. That means the track needs to be built on an embankment a metre or so high for almost the entire distance. One also would looking at a single track with passing loops every 20 kilometres, thats likely to be at least 400 million dollars just for switching and signalling.

woodford
  BigShunter Chief Commissioner

Location: St Clair. S.A.
Anyhow after last nights brain surge, back to the original Vinelander Express, a few have said the line to Mildura is 600 k, which it is, it would be far better to stage Mildura bound trains, out of Ballarat, the fast train is already there, let them do the job they were designed to do and launch towards Mildura from there, which makes the trip 450ish k's. 80 - 90 k an hour, 5 - 6 hour trip, 1.5 hours to Melbourne, not too shabby.

BigShunter.
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

Anyhow after last nights brain surge, back to the original Vinelander Express, a few have said the line to Mildura is 600 k, which it is, it would be far better to stage Mildura bound trains, out of Ballarat, the fast train is already there, let them do the job they were designed to do and launch towards Mildura from there, which makes the trip 450ish k's. 80 - 90 k an hour, 5 - 6 hour trip, 1.5 hours to Melbourne, not too shabby.

BigShunter.
BigShunter
7.5 hours to Melbourne? Compared to 5.5 driving? Forget it.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
It would almost certainly cost a good deal more than that. Although the terrain is basicly level, the rainfall in the area is significant. That means the track needs to be built on an embankment a metre or so high for almost the entire distance. One also would looking at a single track with passing loops every 20 kilometres, thats likely to be at least 400 million dollars just for switching and signalling.

woodford
woodford
Appreciate your comments.

- $1B was based on building the NT line which was $1m/km, I allowed for a 300% inflationary cost increase but also note the area is far less remote than the NT line and does not require concrete sleeper plants and large transport of materials off rail. But yes it is likely to be more.

- Passing loops at 20km is unrealistic as the current interstates are further apart than this. I looked up Mel to Adel and I think its 15 - 40km. As a starter, 100km apart for 1800m from existing the South Main at Junee to Murry Bridge would be more practical. Options to increase as demand requires and especially if the Mildura pax service was to use the corridor.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
Anyhow after last nights brain surge, back to the original Vinelander Express, a few have said the line to Mildura is 600 k, which it is, it would be far better to stage Mildura bound trains, out of Ballarat, the fast train is already there, let them do the job they were designed to do and launch towards Mildura from there, which makes the trip 450ish k's. 80 - 90 k an hour, 5 - 6 hour trip, 1.5 hours to Melbourne, not too shabby.

BigShunter.
7.5 hours to Melbourne? Compared to 5.5 driving? Forget it.
potatoinmymouth

If you can drive from Mildura to Melbourne in 5.5 hours I'm not paying your speeding fines...Mad

M.
  james.au Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
However point is taken. So what is the future of the Swan Hill/Bendigo line remaining BG? Realistically the above plan (and I know its not new) would be around 5 years away to allow other works to be concluded, funded and rolling stock purchased and delivered.   Would SH/Bendigo remain SG this long?
RTT_Rules
Lots of dreaming about to come but there is a bit of it going on in this thread so thought i might join in.

The track north of SH is really a grain line, notwithstanding the pax services.  In the vein of standardising for freight, which probably wont need to be done for this line for a fair while as they'll be able to milk the BG fleet for a while yet with reducing tonnages, i would propose SG from the terminus down to Bendigo.  From here, either run a new SG line (or DG if you also increase Bendigo BG capacity) from there to Castlemaine and reopen the Castlemaine-Maryborough line, or simply reinstate and SG the Eaglehawk line. With SG down to Castlemaine you could run SH-Bendigo-Castlemaine-MB-Ballarat-Geelong services (as extensions of the Geelong-Ballarat-Maryborough we talk about here from time to time).  SH pax for Melbourne could change at Bendigo/Castlemaine.  You'd probably need 2 car Vlos at maximum here, or possibly just use Sprinters till they can Sprint no more.
  james.au Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW

Ok, RTT, lets really get the big stick out and belt all this into one.

Don't stop your greenfield line at Ouyen, straight through to Murray Bridge, there's the connection from the Sunraysia to S.A ! ( that lots have talked about, freight as well )

Piangil, why not turn right, 120 k greenfield to the old Hay line, upgrade that, as well !

There you have it, a short cut Sydney to Adelaide, no freight wondering through Melbourne.

Mildura, jump on a train to Melbourne, Sydney or Adelaide.................

BigShunter.I like your thinking

I assume you are talking Ouyen to Murryville (recently converted to SG), then convert the border cross section Pinnaro and reopen to Murrybridge. Seems simple and low cost enough. Used to be used for cross state regional traffic in BG days.

Question, in Google Sat view, the Ouyen line looks open to Pantyia, which is 2km from the border 17km past Murryville. Is this section to Pantyia to be upgraded or cut off?

Yes the short connection to Hay would make sense, but then you have basically 155km of track that is effectively F__ed and needs to be removed and rebuilt from ground up, so the wording of "upgrade" is misleading, basically 255km of Greenfield railway to be built with the convenience of removing 150km of a pair of rails and termite scat.

Overall, 350km of Greenfield track PLUS a short cross border section between SA/VIC to be replaced PLUS some general upgrades of the Pinnaro line and likely the 120km line from Junee to Yanaco .

Between Yanaco and Pinagil no need for passing loops, just maintenance sidings and likewise as I said before Pinagil to Ouyen. Passing loops at major junctions will do for now.

Total distance Syd to Adel via Junee, Hay, Ouyen etc is around 1350km ,
via Mel its ~1750km,
via Broken Hill ~1550km

What I like about this option is that it ties in alot of regional lines across three states that have no to low volumes of traffic currently because they only offer mono directional traffic, ie to/from their respective capital cities and completely useless for any other traffic. Its not just a city to city corridor. Not sure how much extra rail freight this would generate?

Its also interesting to note if you type in Google Adelaide to Sydney by road, the fastest route is actually almost identical to the above mentioned rail corridor via Hay and Ouyen and Pinaroo with exception going via Wagga to Hay.

What do you think, $1B to do the job to a reasonable standard building 350km of track across basically table top flat ground in basically grain country plus upgrades of some other lines feeding into it to allow 1800m freighters at half decent speeds?
RTT_Rules
This idea would make the Broken Hill route obsolete though right?
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
This idea would make the Broken Hill route obsolete though right?
james.au
Yes and the Broken Hill (Menindee) connection features in the business case for the MBS project as needed beyond 2025 I think so I'm not sure they are suddenly going to change tack and go via Swanners.

BG
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
SH pax for Melbourne could change at Bendigo/Castlemaine.  You'd probably need 2 car Vlos at maximum here, or possibly just use Sprinters till they can Sprint no more.
james.au

Yeah...let's REALLY treat the Mildura/Robinvale/Swan Hill/Kerang pax like second class citizens...
  woodford Chief Commissioner

SH pax for Melbourne could change at Bendigo/Castlemaine.  You'd probably need 2 car Vlos at maximum here, or possibly just use Sprinters till they can Sprint no more.

Yeah...let's REALLY treat the Mildura/Robinvale/Swan Hill/Kerang pax like second class citizens...
The Vinelander
I find this comment of interest as as in what current pass vehicles VLine has the N set carriage are by far the worst of the three (Nset, spinter and VLocity). I have gone straight from an N Set car to both a Sprinter and a VLocity (Note 1) and the difference is like night and day. Both the Sprinter and the Vlocity riding a great deal better.

Note 1:The morning Albury Melbourne, comes in to Seymour 9 minutes or so before the 0920/18 Seymour local leaves and it (the Seymour service) usually gets into Southern Cross well before the albury train.

woodford
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
This idea would make the Broken Hill route obsolete though right?
Yes and the Broken Hill (Menindee) connection features in the business case for the MBS project as needed beyond 2025 I think so I'm not sure they are suddenly going to change tack and go via Swanners.

BG
BrentonGolding
I really don't see the value in this Meindee route? Who does it benefit? Once the train from east gets to BH, no point heading south now.
toGoing via Hay and Pinaroo at least saves nearly 200km of BH.

Would it make this corridor obsolete? No. Still have Adelaide Hills issue, easier via north approach. It would open up another option for the E-W trains, but provide greater flexibility for grain and other users in region.
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
I really don't see the value in this Meindee route? Who does it benefit? Once the train from east gets to BH, no point heading south now.
toGoing via Hay and Pinaroo at least saves nearly 200km of BH.

Would it make this corridor obsolete? No. Still have Adelaide Hills issue, easier via north approach. It would open up another option for the E-W trains, but provide greater flexibility for grain and other users in region.
RTT_Rules
IIRC from the Basin business case it is more about opening up the vast mineral sands deposits between Mildura and Menindee. The Melb > Perth benefits are a minor part of it.

BG
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
SH pax for Melbourne could change at Bendigo/Castlemaine.  You'd probably need 2 car Vlos at maximum here, or possibly just use Sprinters till they can Sprint no more.

Yeah...let's REALLY treat the Mildura/Robinvale/Swan Hill/Kerang pax like second class citizens...
I find this comment of interest as as in what current pass vehicles VLine has the N set carriage are by far the worst of the three (Nset, spinter and VLocity). I have gone straight from an N Set car to both a Sprinter and a VLocity (Note 1) and the difference is like night and day. Both the Sprinter and the Vlocity riding a great deal better.

Note 1:The morning Albury Melbourne, comes in to Seymour 9 minutes or so before the 0920/18 Seymour local leaves and it (the Seymour service) usually gets into Southern Cross well before the albury train.

woodford
woodford

If you had read the comments above more comprehensively, the poster suggested SG the track from Castlemaine or Bendigo to Piangil. This would have required pax to change trains mid-journey because it was suggested the track should be SG, with a change to BG at Bendigo or Castlemaine.

Just simply nonsensical Exclamation

M.
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

If you had read the comments above more comprehensively, the poster suggested SG the track from Castlemaine or Bendigo to Piangil. This would have required pax to change trains mid-journey because it was suggested the track should be SG, with a change to BG at Bendigo or Castlemaine.

Just simply nonsensical
The Vinelander

Simply nonsensical or simply practical? Victoria will have a gauge mess for the foreseeable future. So if we want expanded passenger services in that time frame, some people are going to have to suck it up and change trains.

It's how things work all over the world, and, hell, if things are so bad in Mildura without a train as you say, shouldn't they be flocking to a Sprinter anyway?

(BigShunter, could I borrow that flameproof vest of yours?)
  BigShunter Chief Commissioner

Location: St Clair. S.A.
Simply nonsensical or simply practical? Victoria will have a gauge mess for the foreseeable future. So if we want expanded passenger services in that time frame, some people are going to have to suck it up and change trains.

It's how things work all over the world, and, hell, if things are so bad in Mildura without a train as you say, shouldn't they be flocking to a Sprinter anyway?

(BigShunter, could I borrow that flameproof vest of yours?)
potatoinmymouth

Certainly Old Soul, try her on for size Razz

Although, I didn't know I was Flame Proof................ alcohol is generally rather flammable............

BigShunter.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
Fortunately some of the inane and simply weird comments from some of the clueless posters in these pages will remain in here...end of.
  james.au Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
I really don't see the value in this Meindee route? Who does it benefit? Once the train from east gets to BH, no point heading south now.
toGoing via Hay and Pinaroo at least saves nearly 200km of BH.

Would it make this corridor obsolete? No. Still have Adelaide Hills issue, easier via north approach. It would open up another option for the E-W trains, but provide greater flexibility for grain and other users in region.
IIRC from the Basin business case it is more about opening up the vast mineral sands deposits between Mildura and Menindee. The Melb > Perth benefits are a minor part of it.

BG
BrentonGolding
Id say its got nothing to do with interstate benefits.  its all about keeping the mineral sands going into Victorian employment areas instead of South Australian ones....
  james.au Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
SH pax for Melbourne could change at Bendigo/Castlemaine.  You'd probably need 2 car Vlos at maximum here, or possibly just use Sprinters till they can Sprint no more.

Yeah...let's REALLY treat the Mildura/Robinvale/Swan Hill/Kerang pax like second class citizens...
The Vinelander
Asking people to change (heavily subsidised) trains is hardly treating them like second class.  Hey, huge numbers of second class citizens must exist across the world that use PT systems and are forced to use two different vehicles to get to where they want to go.....
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
Asking people to change (heavily subsidised) trains is hardly treating them like second class.  Hey, huge numbers of second class citizens must exist across the world that use PT systems and are forced to use two different vehicles to get to where they want to go.....
james.au
Exactly. In Germany, to get from Frankfurt Hbf to Wertheim am Main (where my great grandparents came from )  is about 90 km, and I had to change trains at Asschaffenburg. It didn't feel particularly like second class treatment to me.
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
IIRC from the Basin business case it is more about opening up the vast mineral sands deposits between Mildura and Menindee. The Melb > Perth benefits are a minor part of it.

BG
Id say its got nothing to do with interstate benefits.  its all about keeping the mineral sands going into Victorian employment areas instead of South Australian ones....
james.au
Maybe James but then why would you go all the way to Menindee, why not Victoria just fork out and go half way?

My theory (as I and others have posted before) is that VicGov wants and fully expects the Mildura line to become part of the ARTC network and be handed over to them to fix (ie increase TAL, concrete sleepers etc etc) and extend which is one reason why they did that section on the cheap with Timber sleepers replaced as necessary.

Will Sea Lake and Manang (which will always be Vic lines) be done the same way or will they get the concrete treatment?

BG
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
I really don't see the value in this Meindee route? Who does it benefit? Once the train from east gets to BH, no point heading south now.
toGoing via Hay and Pinaroo at least saves nearly 200km of BH.

Would it make this corridor obsolete? No. Still have Adelaide Hills issue, easier via north approach. It would open up another option for the E-W trains, but provide greater flexibility for grain and other users in region.
IIRC from the Basin business case it is more about opening up the vast mineral sands deposits between Mildura and Menindee. The Melb > Perth benefits are a minor part of it.

BG
Id say its got nothing to do with interstate benefits.  its all about keeping the mineral sands going into Victorian employment areas instead of South Australian ones....
james.au
Problem with Mineral sands is mine tonnages tend not to be huge and talking levels that would encourage someone to take a risk and spend $1B or more on a new railway line that would have zero other purpose should that traffic fail. Think the Leigh Creek Line.

Yetla terminus has plenty of space for a transfer station onto rail.
  james.au Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
IIRC from the Basin business case it is more about opening up the vast mineral sands deposits between Mildura and Menindee. The Melb > Perth benefits are a minor part of it.

BG
Id say its got nothing to do with interstate benefits.  its all about keeping the mineral sands going into Victorian employment areas instead of South Australian ones....
Maybe James but then why would you go all the way to Menindee, why not Victoria just fork out and go half way?

My theory (as I and others have posted before) is that VicGov wants and fully expects the Mildura line to become part of the ARTC network and be handed over to them to fix (ie increase TAL, concrete sleepers etc etc) and extend which is one reason why they did that section on the cheap with Timber sleepers replaced as necessary.

Will Sea Lake and Manang (which will always be Vic lines) be done the same way or will they get the concrete treatment?

BG
BrentonGolding
Cos thats how you sell it.

If it was really about interstate intermodal it would go from Yelta direct to Crystal Brook and then perhaps across to Hay/Yanco (or better maybe Griffith).  Thats the way the intermodal flows go - not to Menindee

I think the TransCon link is just a thought bubble in someones minds
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Anyhow after last nights brain surge, back to the original Vinelander Express, a few have said the line to Mildura is 600 k, which it is, it would be far better to stage Mildura bound trains, out of Ballarat, the fast train is already there, let them do the job they were designed to do and launch towards Mildura from there, which makes the trip 450ish k's. 80 - 90 k an hour, 5 - 6 hour trip, 1.5 hours to Melbourne, not too shabby.

BigShunter.
7.5 hours to Melbourne? Compared to 5.5 driving? Forget it.

If you can drive from Mildura to Melbourne in 5.5 hours I'm not paying your speeding fines...Mad

M.
The Vinelander

At an average of 90km/h that should be easily achievable even with stops unless of course the roads are horrible and don't allow that sort of speed. Not everybody drives at 80km/h in a 100-110k zone.

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