Rail Alliance applaud new Member for Mildura

 
Topic moved from News by bevans on 06 Dec 2018 20:50
  x31 Chief Commissioner

Location: gallifrey
It would appear the new member for Mildura has now some background surrounding the issues of the return of a passenger rail service to Mildura and the region which surely is good news.

The member has served on the NWRA committee so she would have first hand knowledge of the proposals and the need for the service.

I hope she can make it happen.

Rail Alliance applaud new Member for Mildura

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  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
It would appear the new member for Mildura has now some background surrounding the issues of the return of a passenger rail service to Mildura and the region which surely is good news.

The member has served on the NWRA committee so she would have first hand knowledge of the proposals and the need for the service.

I hope she can make it happen.

Rail Alliance applaud new Member for Mildura
x31
The Labor Government governs In It's own right with a very healthy margin, non Labor seats are all opposition seats to them, so no sweeteners what so ever going to opposition seats !
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Interestingly I have just looked up the constitution of the Upper House.  The ALP have only around 1/3 of the upper house which is interesting as parliament does not go back until December 19th.  How do they expect to get any deals across the line?  I think it good however the member has some background to the issue.  I would not be surprised if the ALP do look to return the service.
  mikesyd Chief Commissioner

Location: Lurking
The Member for Mildura is not in the Upper House though - her vote is worthless.
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

A third?? Not sure where you’re getting your information from bevans but the ABC has 18 Labor + 1 Green, 10 L/NP and a crossbench of 11.

Taking the President out of the equation Labor need the support of only 2 crossbenchers and the Green. That’s essentially as good as it gets under the 2002 electoral system and hardly significant enough for crossbenchers to get their way.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
The Labor Government governs In It's own right with a very healthy margin, non Labor seats are all opposition seats to them, so no sweeteners what so ever going to opposition seats !
Nightfire

You obviously don't work 'inside' the government. Complete nonsense as the Independent Member for Shepparton would agree with if she was a 'Pager.

Mike.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
A third?? Not sure where you’re getting your information from bevans but the ABC has 18 Labor + 1 Green, 10 L/NP and a crossbench of 11.

Taking the President out of the equation Labor need the support of only 2 crossbenchers and the Green. That’s essentially as good as it gets under the 2002 electoral system and hardly significant enough for crossbenchers to get their way.
potatoinmymouth

OK when I checked last they only had that number agreed as won.  Must have moved up.  So the ALP cannot pass bills in the upper house without cross bench support.

Back to the topic, since the member now has her seat, does it not vindicate the people who want the train returned?
  james.au Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
A third?? Not sure where you’re getting your information from bevans but the ABC has 18 Labor + 1 Green, 10 L/NP and a crossbench of 11.

Taking the President out of the equation Labor need the support of only 2 crossbenchers and the Green. That’s essentially as good as it gets under the 2002 electoral system and hardly significant enough for crossbenchers to get their way.

OK when I checked last they only had that number agreed as won.  Must have moved up.  So the ALP cannot pass bills in the upper house without cross bench support.

Back to the topic, since the member now has her seat, does it not vindicate the people who want the train returned?
bevans
1. It is very rare that an upper house is controlled fully by the governing party.

2. That is a long bow to draw.  Perhaps in part but there are many other issues on voter's minds.  Id say they'd have been looking up the river at Shepparton and the investment an Independent brings and thinking a bit about that.
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

Back to the topic, since the member now has her seat, does it not vindicate the people who want the train returned?
bevans

I think that’s quite a valid point. I just had a quick look at her website to see where the train ranked as an issue, and it was one of only three major policies listed, so I think you can infer that it was a factor in quite a large number of people’s decision to vote for her.

Still, her only justification is the “we pay for other people’s trains” line which I don’t find particularly convincing, as you know.
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
Still, her only justification is the “we pay for other people’s trains” line which I don’t find particularly convincing, as you know.
potatoinmymouth
Indeed, so she wants to move from a "we pay for other people's trains" line to an "other people pay for our trains" line. 'cause it aint gonna be cheap to return pax services to Mildura.

BG
  x31 Chief Commissioner

Location: gallifrey
What is completely clear from the election less than  1 month ago is about progressive and inclusive government with services for all Victorians.  The last two posts are not in this theme.

The Mildura service will be returned as it provides services that voters clearly want.
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

What is completely clear from the election less than  1 month ago is about progressive and inclusive government with services for all Victorians.  The last two posts are not in this theme.

The Mildura service will be returned as it provides services that voters clearly want.
x31
The fundamental problem with the "we deserve a train, like other Victorians" line is that it leaves precisely zero room for nuance. Who can successfully argue that one town is more deserving than another?

Perfect egalitarianism is nonsense in the provision of passenger rail services. This is a carbon copy of the thinking that led to the Octopus Act in 1884, which, I remind the assembled, was never realised in its entirety, left the VR with a debt burden from which it never escaped, and lumbered the Victorian rail network with a disastrously inefficient structure which inhibits progress to this day. Do not forget, either, that this took place in the golden age of the railway, when steel on steel was the only remotely reliable method of moving passengers and goods on land. Yet it was still a failure.

It is without question that a population the size of Mildura should have reasonable access to public transport options which connect it to the capital city and to other signficant centres (like Bendigo and Ballarat). However, no one seems able to demonstrate how the train would provide a level of service superior to what is currently on offer, or, indeed, why services need improvement at all, given Mildura's relatively excellent public transport connectivity when benchmarked against similar towns elsewhere in the country.

I will be the first to concede that my position would be very different if, in a parallel universe, The Vinelander had survived the Kennett axe and we were now discussing whether it should be continued. Similarly, if the authorities in their wisdom had constructed the Swan Hill link line many decades ago, we would be in a very different discussion. The reality is, however, that even with a very substantial capital investment in track, facilities, signalling and rollingstock, a train to Mildura would be slow, circuitous, infrequent, and, on the whole, inferior to the bus services it replaced.
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
What is completely clear from the election less than  1 month ago is about progressive and inclusive government with services for all Victorians.  The last two posts are not in this theme.

The Mildura service will be returned as it provides services that voters clearly want.
x31
You should run for parliament mate. Money for everyone and damn the consequences. You'd probably go alright for a term or two until your sent the joint to the wall.

BG
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
What is completely clear from the election less than  1 month ago is about progressive and inclusive government with services for all Victorians.  The last two posts are not in this theme.

The Mildura service will be returned as it provides services that voters clearly want.
The fundamental problem with the "we deserve a train, like other Victorians" line is that it leaves precisely zero room for nuance. Who can successfully argue that one town is more deserving than another?

The reality is, however, that even with a very substantial capital investment in track, facilities, signalling and rollingstock, a train to Mildura would be slow, circuitous, infrequent, and, on the whole, INFERIOR to the bus services it replaced.
potatoinmymouth

The bus is slow...limited to 100Km/h for literally hours on end...

https://www.vline.com.au/getattachment/19e67ce6-d5ed-47df-a94e-4b673448e6cf/Mildura-Melbourne-(via-Swan-Hill-and-Bendigo)-(2)

AND

https://www.vline.com.au/getattachment/13b11bca-35cb-4323-9dfe-14a183d9f5de/Mildura-Ballarat-(2)

Yes it takes 2 separate timetables to cover the V/Line services on offer to Mildura...


The SG track would be third rail from Maryborough to Ballarat by the time this proposal eventually grows legs. Pax will change trains at Ballarat.

Trains would operate in tandem with the existing bus service so the towns that currently receive a V/Line bus service remain as part of the system EG Robinvale, Euston, Manangatang, Nyah etc.



The train is INFERIOR to the bus because the track is upgraded BEFORE any scheduled passenger trains commence operation on the Mildura line.

The train is INFERIOR to the bus because it has superior disability access and facilities.

The train is INFERIOR to the bus because it encourages freedom of movement within the train cars.

The train is INFERIOR to the bus because it has catering at hand.

The train is INFERIOR to the bus because it has two classes of accommodation, both of which are more spacious.

The train is INFERIOR to the bus because it will be travelling faster than 100Km/h.

The train is INFERIOR to the bus because it will ride more smoothly than the bus on the Murray Valley, Calder and the goat track, Sunraysia Highway.

The train is INFERIOR to the bus because it is a safer mode of transport.

The train is INFERIOR to the bus because it is an inducer for people to travel by PT instead of driving or paying exorbitant air fares.

The train is INFERIOR to the bus because the point to point times will be faster than the current train/bus timetable. (see above)

The train is INFERIOR to the bus because it will actually be an enhanced population changer like the other regional cities with regional trains.

The train is INFERIOR to the bus because the railway stations the train will serve now become community hubs and Tourist Information centres instead of deserted buildings.


I think that wraps up enough discussion regarding why the train is INFERIOR to the bus.

Mike. Smile
  justarider Chief Train Controller

Location: Stuck on VR and hoping for better.
What is completely clear from the election less than  1 month ago is about progressive and inclusive government with services for all Victorians.  The last two posts are not in this theme.

The Mildura service will be returned as it provides services that voters clearly want.
....
The reality is, however, that even with a very substantial capital investment in track, facilities, signalling and rollingstock, a train to Mildura would be slow, circuitous, infrequent, and, on the whole, inferior to the bus services it replaced.
potatoinmymouth
let's not forget the Bus/Train option (via Swan Hill).

A 3 hr bus Mildura to Swan Hill doesn't sound fantastic, but according to Google it's only 10 minutes slower than driving yourself.
All up Mildura to SCS = 7:45 hrs.
Going on direct train via Ballarat isn't going to do better.

If (and many proponents are) we are contemplating a high speed train to Mildura to compensate for the loooonnng distance, then improvements for Swan Hill & Bendigo would deliver far better value.

cheers
John
  justarider Chief Train Controller

Location: Stuck on VR and hoping for better.

The SG track would be third rail from Maryborough to Ballarat by the time this proposal eventually grows legs. Pax will change trains at Ballarat.


Mike. Smile
The Vinelander
I get your anger Mike.

Can but dream, so can you clarify for me?
The current Maryborough/SCS train time table indicates a change of train at Ballarat.
Aren't they both BG V/Lo so why not just run straight thru.

A straight run (no change) from Maryborough to SCS would imply an available change train at Maryborough
- Mildura to Maryborough SG, Maryborough to SCS BG.

That's available now, something to push (even though probably a 9hrs run).

cheers
John
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

Current Maryborough train does run through, the timetable break indicates it joins/divides with a short shunting set.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line

The SG track would be third rail from Maryborough to Ballarat by the time this proposal eventually grows legs. Pax will change trains at Ballarat.


Mike. Smile
I get your anger Mike.

Can but dream, so can you clarify for me?
The current Maryborough/SCS train time table indicates a change of train at Ballarat.
Aren't they both BG V/Lo so why not just run straight thru.

A straight run (no change) from Maryborough to SCS would imply an available change train at Maryborough
- Mildura to Maryborough SG, Maryborough to SCS BG.

That's available now, something to push (even though probably a 9hrs run).

cheers
John
justarider

Should Ballarat in all likelihood become the PT hub of western Victoria, future SG services to Hamilton, Horsham AND Mildura will require a change of service at Ballarat.

There's no point in operating V'Locity's down the SG line to Geelong Loop then the circuitous route from Newport to SCS via Tottenham and the slow SG line to SCS.

Just as easy to change trains at Ballarat.

In the event that Ararat becomes the SG hub for Hamilton/Horsham in the future, SG services from Mildura will still require a change of train at Ballarat to enable a faster service to SCS.

Mike.
  x31 Chief Commissioner

Location: gallifrey
Current Maryborough train does run through, the timetable break indicates it joins/divides with a short shunting set.
potatoinmymouth

I have ready here the train is split and combined on the UP.

How far does the BG now run which is open north of Marybrough or is Maryborough the new end of BG?

If we need SG between Maryborough and Ballarat is there space for a second track like between Ballarat and Geelong?
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
Current Maryborough train does run through, the timetable break indicates it joins/divides with a short shunting set.

I have ready here the train is split and combined on the UP.

How far does the BG now run which is open north of Marybrough or is Maryborough the new end of BG?

If we need SG between Maryborough and Ballarat is there space for a second track like between Ballarat and Geelong?
x31
It's DG to Dunolly where Mildura and the Sea lake/Manangatang lines branch off from one another.
  trainbrain Deputy Commissioner

pass services will not return to Mildura,buses are more than adequate, some fools on this site are kidding themselves.
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
It doesn't do any harm for people to have dreams. Reality usually sets in soon afterwards.

I noticed that we were given a plethora of points about trains tongue-in-cheek "inferiority" over buses. I think I must have missed the bit about costs.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line

If we need SG between Maryborough and Ballarat is there space for a second track like between Ballarat and Geelong?
x31

Ballarat to Geelong will become SG.
  justarider Chief Train Controller

Location: Stuck on VR and hoping for better.

The SG track would be third rail from Maryborough to Ballarat by the time this proposal eventually grows legs. Pax will change trains at Ballarat.


Mike. SmileI get your anger Mike.

Can but dream, so can you clarify for me?
The current Maryborough/SCS train time table indicates a change of train at Ballarat.
Aren't they both BG V/Lo so why not just run straight thru.

A straight run (no change) from Maryborough to SCS would imply an available change train at Maryborough
- Mildura to Maryborough SG, Maryborough to SCS BG.

That's available now, something to push (even though probably a 9hrs run).

cheers
John

Should Ballarat in all likelihood become the PT hub of western Victoria, future SG services to Hamilton, Horsham AND Mildura will require a change of service at Ballarat.

There's no point in operating V'Locity's down the SG line to Geelong Loop then the circuitous route from Newport to SCS via Tottenham and the slow SG line to SCS.

Just as easy to change trains at Ballarat.

In the event that Ararat becomes the SG hub for Hamilton/Horsham in the future, SG services from Mildura will still require a change of train at Ballarat to enable a faster service to SCS.

Mike.
The Vinelander
Mike, I think you missed my point.

If doing a train change at Ballarat, might as well be done at Maryborough.
That way, get a quicker trip on the V/Lo to SCS (via Ballarat) - and the Mildura train (N set ?) can do a same day return.
You get a more efficient use of both train sets.

The rest of upgrades & hubs will take care of themselves in due course.
A grand plan is all well and good, but if you don't start somewhere then nothing gets done. - Hamilton/Horsham/Mildura (and other stops along/beyond) are all suffering because of inaction.

PS: if the Overland deal falls over, there will be some very nice SG cars looking for work.

cheers
John
  ngarner Train Controller

Location: Seville
Geelong to Ballarat was originally built as double track in the 1860s but singled with passing loops later as the traffic wasn't as high as expected and, from memory, Mooroobool viaduct weigh restrictions.
So yes, there is room but the odds on it happening? IMHO quite low, especially compared to the Bendigo line's need for reinstatement of the second line north of Kyneton.

Neil

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