Electrification To Wallan

 
  justarider Assistant Commissioner

Location: Stuck on VR and hoping for better.
Why on earth would you want to ride a shaky Xtrap 48km (hanging on the straps homeward), when you already have a reasonably comfortable Vlo. @ptv you ride Frankston don't you, Wallan is worse.
-justarider
Seymour rarely sees Velocity trains, most of them are sprinters or the good old (not really, just old) N sets, sometimes with H class carriages on them for good measure.  I'd take a metro train built this century over those any day.

Flinders St to Craigieburn via the loop is 47mins (would be much the same via Upfield).  VLine is timetabled from Craigieburn to Wallan in 14mins off peak with one stop. Given the metro trains can accelerate much faster this would probably be about the same, but lets call it 15 to be fair.

So Flinders St to Wallan via the loop is 62mins, just over an hour. That's pretty much the same as Lilydale and Mernda for comparison (gee, shows how painfully slow the trip to Mernda is given the distance - Wallan is much further out!).

Not too big an issue after all?
LeroyW
If you're thinking into the future for sparks to Wallan, then consider what the network will look like then.
V/Line expects to replace its entire locomotive-hauled fleet with VLocity units by 2022
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V/Line_VLocity
PS: "good old (not really, just old) N sets" are mostly the Shepparton train, also slotted to become Vlo.

Accelaration by sparks is undoubtedly better, but only relevant when you consider how many stops.
If you think the Wallan train would run express for the most part (like today), there is little advantage.

Your time comparisons perplex me "Not too big an issue after all?"
So you argument is to replace a Vline service (~60 mjnutes) with a Metro service (~60 minutes).
Spend another squillion dollars to deliver NO benefit.

Both Craigeburn and Upfield are haunted by 2 track only, and dozens of Level Crossings. Future prospects for increase in speed and/or frequency are bleak. Lilydale, Mernda, Frankston etc... at least have plans underway to make them better.

Repeating myself, divert via the Airport holds the answer to huge improvement that sparks to Wallan does not.

cheers
John

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  Rodo Chief Commissioner

Location: Southern Riverina
The long way round via the airport does not look like a way for a faster service.
The Wallan trains could run express from Upfield to the city and be about as quick as the current service to Wallan .  The services from Seymour would be faster, stopping only at Wallan-Cragieburn-Broadmeadows on the way ...
  LeroyW Junior Train Controller

Location: Awaiting MM2
Accelaration by sparks is undoubtedly better, but only relevant when you consider how many stops.
If you think the Wallan train would run express for the most part (like today), there is little advantage.

Your time comparisons perplex me "Not too big an issue after all?"
So you argument is to replace a Vline service (~60 mjnutes) with a Metro service (~60 minutes).
Spend another squillion dollars to deliver NO benefit.
justarider
Except the VLine runs 17 services per day from Wallan to the city, whereas Metro from Craigieburn runs that many in peak alone.  So yes, the time spent on a train is the same but the level of service is massively increased.

Side note: the same thing happened at Sunbury - the sparks, when they arrived, where slower than the VLine used to be, but at least there were more of them.  People still complained however!

Both Craigeburn and Upfield are haunted by 2 track only, and dozens of Level Crossings. Future prospects for increase in speed and/or frequency are bleak. Lilydale, Mernda, Frankston etc... at least have plans underway to make them better.

Repeating myself, divert via the Airport holds the answer to huge improvement that sparks to Wallan does not.

cheers
John
justarider
I totally agree that for the benefit of the network as whole, diverting the NE line at Wallan and going via the Airport is the best solution.
However, I would propose that only the VLine services from Seymour/Shep/Albury head that way. Sparks start at Wallan and head to the city, as the lands around Donnybrook are set to become massive commuter suburbs that need a regular rail service that VLine can't provide.

So given that an Airport to Wallan tunnel and alignment are way, way off, I don't see anything wrong with giving Wallan and Donnybrook a far superior service in the meantime, given the thousands of new homes planned for that area?
  justarider Assistant Commissioner

Location: Stuck on VR and hoping for better.
...
Your time comparisons perplex me "Not too big an issue after all?"
So you argument is to replace a Vline service (~60 mjnutes) with a Metro service (~60 minutes).
Spend another squillion dollars to deliver NO benefit.
-justarider
Except the VLine runs 17 services per day from Wallan to the city, whereas Metro from Craigieburn runs that many in peak alone.  So yes, the time spent on a train is the same but the level of service is massively increased.

Side note: the same thing happened at Sunbury - ....
LeroyW
When the day comes that Wallan has the same passenger demand as say Wyndham Vale, then it too can have 50+ trains per day each way. In case you haven't noticed the busy lines get the most trains, something Vline are starting to get good at.

Even IF sparks went to Wallan, how many trains extra do you think could fit or equip?
Remember express is NOT a real option, there are only 2 tracks so Wallan have to get in line behind SAS, shades of Bendigo/Sunbury.

Repeating myself, divert via the Airport holds the answer to huge improvement that sparks to Wallan does not.

-justarider
I totally agree that for the benefit of the network as whole, diverting the NE line at Wallan and going via the Airport is the best solution.
However, I would propose that only the VLine services from Seymour/Shep/Albury head that way. Sparks start at Wallan and head to the city, as the lands around Donnybrook are set to become massive commuter suburbs that need a regular rail service that VLine can't provide.

So given that an Airport to Wallan tunnel and alignment are way, way off, I don't see anything wrong with giving Wallan and Donnybrook a far superior service in the meantime, given the thousands of new homes planned for that area?
LeroyW

Without the potential passenger volumes from Wallan etc, the justification for an Airport diversion is moot.
Anything happening at Wallan "are way, way off" - train improvements and population. There is no "meantime" build justified.

If you have a beef with frequency of the Seymour service then just say so. That IS fixable.
Vline does have options SG and BG , now and in the future.

cheers
John
  justarider Assistant Commissioner

Location: Stuck on VR and hoping for better.
The long way round via the airport does not look like a way for a faster service.
The Wallan trains could run express from Upfield to the city and be about as quick as the current service to Wallan .  The services from Seymour would be faster, stopping only at Wallan-Cragieburn-Broadmeadows on the way ...
Rodo
sometimes the "long way" surprises.

Current time table:
Vline Seymour to SCS 1:30 hr
XPT   Seymour to SCS 1:20 hr ( the long way around Jacana/Albion/Sunshine)

and consider that the existing Albion Loop is speed restricted to 80kph. The Airport upgrade will surely improve that (A LOT)

Forget about any express benefit on either Upfield or Craigeburn. They still have to wait their turn behind the SAS. Bendigo/Sunbury is a very depressing instruction.

cheers
John
  reubstar6 Chief Train Controller

Yeah I've said for a while that the Albion-Jacana line is underutilised and could easily take V/line services with an upgrade.
  Lockie91 Train Controller

The government recently announced serval new “suburbs” many of them sit along the Wallan corridor. I would hedge a bet that it will be announced in this term of government whit construction kicking off 2022.

Donnybrook and Wallan are already getting station upgrades as part of the RRR. It’s no surprise these station upgrades have been added to the scope of works.

Wallan has a population of 12, 500 and Donnybrook around 500. By 2026 these are forecast to grow to 21,000 and 12,000 respectively.

That is not to far away. Providing a basic metro service in peak of 10 minutes and 40 off peak (similar to Sunbury) will be needed sooner rather than later.

Two issues stand in the way, regional service being one of them. Will the government take a leaf out of the rail futures air train book and reroute services via the airport.

Secondly is the 20 level crossings on the upfield line. That will all need to go over time. Currently you could extend every second service to Wallan. This leaves the Upfield frequency the same. Once additional services are added the upfield line will gridlock one half of Melbourne.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
We have been discussing various overhead system approaches for Melbourne being AC and DC.

https://www.railpage.com.au/news/s/intercity-new-generation-emu-prepared-for-testing has an example of an EMU which can use both systems.
  justarider Assistant Commissioner

Location: Stuck on VR and hoping for better.
The government recently announced serval new “suburbs” many of them sit along the Wallan corridor. I would hedge a bet that it will be announced in this term of government whit construction kicking off 2022.

Donnybrook and Wallan are already getting station upgrades as part of the RRR. It’s no surprise these station upgrades have been added to the scope of works.

Wallan has a population of 12, 500 and Donnybrook around 500. By 2026 these are forecast to grow to 21,000 and 12,000 respectively.

That is not to far away. Providing a basic metro service in peak of 10 minutes and 40 off peak (similar to Sunbury) will be needed sooner rather than later.

Two issues stand in the way, regional service being one of them. Will the government take a leaf out of the rail futures air train book and reroute services via the airport.

Secondly is the 20 level crossings on the upfield line. That will all need to go over time. Currently you could extend every second service to Wallan. This leaves the Upfield frequency the same. Once additional services are added the upfield line will gridlock one half of Melbourne.
Lockie91
21K + 12K by 2026 , that's sooo big (NOT)

When they reach figures like Sunbury 36K, Melton 62K, Bacchus Marsh 20K then maybe a railway comparison becomes relevant.

cheers
John
  Lockie91 Train Controller

@justarider

You seem to forget that Sunbury was not the size it is now when the line was sparked. Was hovering around the 28K mark back in 2009.

The same argument can be used for Melton which pre RRL had an hourly service. I agree that Melton is way over due and should have been sparked at the same time as Sunbury when it was only a suburb or 30K

Planning should get underway by 2023 to ensure that Wallan and the suburbs announced last week have a rail service by 2026. A catchment of 40K is not bad for a suburb. Besides don’t forget we cant compare or forecast growth for suburbs that are still paddocks. Their is a lot of land around Craigieburn and Beveridge that is about to be opened up to Development.
  574M White Guru

Location: Shepparton
What are the chances of this 'proposed' line to Wollert being part of Wallan electrification?
You know, like Chatswood to Epping...
  Lockie91 Train Controller

@547M

Zero.

The Mernda line is already overcrowded and constrained by the single of track at Hurstbridge and the conflict at Clifton Hill.

Metro 2 will enable Wollert so another 20 years maybe.
  574M White Guru

Location: Shepparton
The Mernda line is already overcrowded and constrained by the single of track at Hurstbridge and the conflict at Clifton Hill.
Lockie91
What does the track at Hurstbridge have to do with Mernda?
  Lockie91 Train Controller

@547M

As I’ve said and you have the quoted me.

The Mernda line is constrained by the single section of track on the Hurstbridge Line which creates an irregular stopping pattern on that line which in course interacts with the Mernda Line at Clifton Hill.

An DOWN train from Mernda needs to be timetabled to cross over the UP line at Cliftion Hill which is a Hurstbridge Line. This service also needs to be timetabled with the single section of track at Hurstbridge. If the services arrives at Eltham to late or early it will conflict with the opposing service on the single track. If it’s late to Hurstbridge it leaves late which will cause the same conflict on the way back.

A late Hurstbridge service will hold up a Mernda service at Clifton Hill and visa versa.
  trainbrain Chief Commissioner

Cliton Hill is a junction  station any holdup on either line Mernda or Hurstbridge of course is going to have a flow on effect. Any delay on the Eltham single section of line is a misnomer.  Delays can happen anywhere at anytime.
  justarider Assistant Commissioner

Location: Stuck on VR and hoping for better.
@justarider

You seem to forget that Sunbury was not the size it is now when the line was sparked. Was hovering around the 28K mark back in 2009.

The same argument can be used for Melton which pre RRL had an hourly service. I agree that Melton is way over due and should have been sparked at the same time as Sunbury when it was only a suburb or 30K

Planning should get underway by 2023 to ensure that Wallan and the suburbs announced last week have a rail service by 2026. A catchment of 40K is not bad for a suburb. Besides don’t forget we cant compare or forecast growth for suburbs that are still paddocks. Their is a lot of land around Craigieburn and Beveridge that is about to be opened up to Development.
Lockie91
attribution of cause and effect is a dangerous practice in any science, even when the numbers are correct (which your's are not).

Sunbury has been on a steady growth trajectory for the past 30-40 years.
Population was touching 30K in 2006, 33K in 2011.  
Long before the sparks arrived in 2012.
http://population.city/australia/sunbury/   projected 40K this year  (plus all the other suburbs closer in)

Melton population started to skyrocket abut 2010 ~40K, and had exploded to 57K by 2014  .
RRL in 2015 followed well after.
http://population.city/australia/melton/  projected 82K this year (plus all the other suburbs closer in)

As well as the railway events you ascribe, other things have been happening.
Calder Freeway, Western Freeway have seen massive upgrades and by-passes in the last 30 years.
but cause/effect ? not sure

The main cause is the overall growth of Melbourne pushing the boundaries out, and services are following.

Repeating: when Wallan gets to those numbers will be the time to discuss; planning in due course but not shovels in the ground.
Wallan is still a long way off and other existing growth needs to be addressed today , and it is.

In the meantime there is a regular service to Wallan, a lot better than can be said for some of the other new suburbs.

cheers
John
  ptvcommuter Train Controller

Problem is you need to build infrastructure to support these new homes
50,000 new homes could mean something like 150-200K new residents.

Right now there is no heavy rail for these people to use. Nobody is going to want to use a Seymour line service that runs every hour at most and is unreliable.

So they will turn to roads. Or they will just put more unneeded pressure by parking in and around Cragieburn station on a line that is full and suffering from overcrowding

Wallan has huge benefits such as

- Services growing suburbs in the north which are going to become huge

- Will make use of the Upfield Line and improve frequency on the line which will have to be duplicated meaning more services and reliability for people in Coburg, Brunswick, etc who have to put up with a sub standard service

No brainer
Do we need it now, arguably not
But when the metro Tunnel is opening in 2025, the line should at least be under construction or been completed
  justarider Assistant Commissioner

Location: Stuck on VR and hoping for better.
Problem is you need to build infrastructure to support these new homes
50,000 new homes could mean something like 150-200K new residents.

Right now there is no heavy rail for these people to use. Nobody is going to want to use a Seymour line service that runs every hour at most and is unreliable.

So they will turn to roads. Or they will just put more unneeded pressure by parking in and around Cragieburn station on a line that is full and suffering from overcrowding

Wallan has huge benefits such as

- Services growing suburbs in the north which are going to become huge

- Will make use of the Upfield Line and improve frequency on the line which will have to be duplicated meaning more services and reliability for people in Coburg, Brunswick, etc who have to put up with a sub standard service

No brainer
Do we need it now, arguably not
But when the metro Tunnel is opening in 2025, the line should at least be under construction or been completed
ptvcommuter
there are not a planned 50,000 housing plots for Wallan. That number is for a whole range across the North, West, South-East.
Wallan surrounds is closer to 12,000. Even @Lockie91 concedes the population is looking 21K. That is NOT huge.

There is heavy rail. You have made it abundantly clear that you just don't like it. Tough !!
Read the papers or RP. Seymour line in undergoing a huge upgrade, including the Wallan station and rolling stock.

Frequency is a result of how many passengers use it.
More pax = more trains: it's been expanding across the network for the last 20 years. Wallan's turn is coming in a considered timeline not a dream.

as for Upfield. again I say
LX LX LX LX LX LX LX LX LX LX LX LX LX LX LX LX LX LX LX LX LX LX =$billions

cheers
John
  Lockie91 Train Controller

@justarider

Thanks for the figures. I was using a different website than the one you have used.

Their is a correlation between rail infrastructure and new housing. Developers love a new station or line as they can add another zero to the price for blocks. I may have stretched it a little further.

And I agree that we don’t need to start Wallan for a while yet. If we could get planning started in the next political cycle 2022 onwards we could have Wallan line around 2026 when the majority of those house will be built.

And yes the biggest thing standing in the way of extending the Upfield line is the Upfield line it’s self. You could pencil in a Billion to extend the line with new track, stations (Beveridge) ect to Wallan. Then if not more to remove the LX.
  574M White Guru

Location: Shepparton



In the meantime there is a regular service to Wallan, a lot better than can be said for some of the other new suburbs.

...
justarider


Do you board services at Wallan or Donnybrook in the morning peak?
Do you disembark at either of these stations in the shoulder or evening peak?

Verily, verily I say unto thee: Bunkum junkum!
  justarider Assistant Commissioner

Location: Stuck on VR and hoping for better.



In the meantime there is a regular service to Wallan, a lot better than can be said for some of the other new suburbs.

...

Do you board services at Wallan or Donnybrook in the morning peak?
Do you disembark at either of these stations in the shoulder or evening peak?

Verily, verily I say unto thee: Bunkum junkum!
574M
verliy verily true.

Neither have I caught the morning peak at Carrum Downs, Skye, Sandhurst, Clyde, Endeavor Hills, Rowville, Scoresby, Chirnside Park, Doreen, Woolert, Point Cook.

Of course that is because that have nothing, and some have been waiting decades.

I don't doubt you feel the current service is unsatisfactory, but is it still a lot better than many others have to put up with.
Obviously any upgrades that Vline are currently doing will never be good enough.

So they should just drop everything else and spend a squillion dollars on a bells and whistles super service for a relatively insignificant new suburb. I think not. When Wallan get's to the size of eg: Sunbury or Craigeburn then there is a case.

cheers
John
  574M White Guru

Location: Shepparton
I'll score you a point for Point Cook!

I saw the plans for this, six years ago?
  Allstarbernie Beginner

Ok so I live in Mickleham ( Merrifield ) and work and study in CBD.

I don't think we need an electrified service yet ( don't hate me lol )   I'd be more than happy to change for a Craigieburn / Upfield to wallan shuttle

This can be done in stages

Stage 1. Immediate re-introduce a 2 car sprinter shuttle from wallan to Craigieburn ( may require track modification at wallan to allow platform changes at southern end of station and signal modifications and upgrades )  this will give 3tph in peak direction ( 2 x sprinter shuttle + 1 x Seymour / Sheparaton ) which is the same as the current Upfield level of service

Stage 2. Duplicate Gowrie  to Upfield ( electrified ) and reinstate somereton link as vline only using at grade  crossing with ARTC tracks initially until the Inland rail is finalised and constructed with grade separation,   and then extend shuttle sprinter Service wallan to Upfield.   This also allows  BG sprinter + Seymour  + Shepparton  to run via Upfield somerton link

Stage 3. As PAX levels demands,  then electrify to wallan

There is opportunity to introduce hybrid trains into the vline network,  that could run as a commutter style between Melbourne and Wallan / Melton / Geelong / Warraggal and then desiel out to seynoure / Ballarat/ warrun ponds / Traralgon

Currently most Mickleham / donnybrook / kalkallo / wollert residents drive to either Craigieburn / Upfield / Gowrie  ( myself ) / Mernda to catch the train daily,  so the real demand for services is hard to quantify.  I use connection when I know I will leave work on time

Side note : my estate ( Merrifield ) introduced a private bus service for residents only which has become a huge success,  unfortunately the peak services are now full and because of legislation and type of bus used,   it cannot take standing passengers.

Also,  I don't think Essendon to Craigieburn section of the line needs extra services,   instead bring forward the proposed turn back at Essendon and run shorter services to overcome crowding there

Running vline and spy services via airport is a good idea via OMRR.  Keep in mind that the proposal isn't to replace airport services,  but to create new link opportunities for decentralized state and link Seymoure / Bendigo directly with airport,  and Ballarat, / Geelong via transport hub at sunshine

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