Stalin, Mao & Marx verses everyone else

 
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
Dangerstan707 wrote:

I have heard good things about that book and it is on my long to read list don. Like I said I'm not a stalinist apologist. would be like if I called you a fascist and asked you to defend Hitler and Pinochet. I'm going to try to be reasonable and not call insults, as difficult as it is on a Tuchy issue like this

Not accusing you of being a Stalinist, can't point you to anything specific about Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn but Canadian clinical psychologist Jordan Peterson talks about the importance of his work while expressing general dismay at the lack of knowledge about the atrocities.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfEYKSxXC5o

Cuba is doing extremely well considering that they have been under an embargo for 50 years by their former biggest trading partner and loss of a sponsor to pro them up (USSR). Cuba has a good election system, Excellent health care and education and guarantee's it's people a decent standard of living. The DDR if you read earlier I called 'horrific', Do I like the Stazi? No. If you want a decent read on them read Ana Funder's Staziland. I find one thing funny about the DDR though, Why are people nostalgic towards it if it was soo awful? It baffles me too

Cuba might be the exception rather than the rule, haven't read much about that apart from the actual revolution. Communism is a really high control and high obedience kind of ideology that kinda suited some people I'm sure... the Stasi paying off a quarter of the East German population was positively Orwellian though -

I would call that cruelty! I have not studied maoist china enough, you got me in a hole there. I will refer you to my definition of genocide

I read a book recently about the modern history of China and it was never really a single entity until the 19th century when repeated attacks by the West (and others) forced some degree of centralisation of power in the last few monarchs. The KMT tried to unify the Chinese nation but got over-run by the murderous Japanese... the more I read the more I'm convinced genocide is in our genes somehow!

I do agree that stalinism's (Stalinist Russia and Mao's China) crimes are horrific and Need to serve as a reminder of what absolution can do but I disagree with calling the Holodomor (not purposefully done) and the great purge a genocide. It in my opinion Genocide is a racially motivated idea. At least the USSR realised how horrific Stalin was.

I don't know, even in Russia there's still lots of people who remember the Stalinist era with fondness because there was a rapid industrialisation and lots of certainty in a centrally-controlled economy.

I disagree with the west not being on equal ground with the Stalinists. China I agree is horrific with the treatment of minorities makes stalinist Russia look like a paradise (they were tolerated somewhat though forced to move around). China will always do it unless some Khrushchev esque leader takes power and reverses all of its Han homogeny policies  
China is taking up to the worlds mantle and your going to see a lot more of them this century whether you like them or not due to they're economic power.

All these things are just accidents of history; when leader X was in power they instigated policy Y.

When you read a lot about China you realise it's not very homogeneous at all - even their claim to Taiwan is historically dubious. Anyway, I'm not convinced that China can keep their cyber-punk Orwellian "brainwashing" going forever, the Chinese diaspora who have experienced life in the West might not be so easy to keep under their control in the longer run... anyway.

I disagree respectfully with that, the west has done murdered just as many in their colonial wars, Economic and proxy wars and oppressive puppets. The western puppets did the same as you know.

More than enough material for another thread then.

Agreed

Sponsored advertisement

  apw5910 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Location: Location.
Don, do you ever talk about trains?
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
Just trying to divert this long-running tome about political theory away from a thread about the Federal Election (which is admittedly dull at the moment) into its own thread.

But it's now working, people haven't noticed this thread yet... perhaps I should ask mods to merge them?
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
Don, do you ever talk about trains?
apw5910
He posts on occasion in the SA and Victorian threads. Though largely focuses on the political threads

Not accusing you of being a Stalinist, can't point you to anything specific about Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn but Canadian clinical psychologist Jordan Peterson talks about the importance of his work while expressing general dismay at the lack of knowledge about the atrocities.
don dunstan
Good. I agree that the stalinist horrors are underplayed and overshadowed by other atrocities. I disagree with Peterson on this subject though.  like I said, the gulag archipelago on my to read list. I have heard that he overplays them and underplays/fails to mention the crimes committed by the whites. Everyone has an agenda!

Interesting Solzhenitsyn's wife says about the gulag archipelago, though probably propaganda and myths as some claim she was effected by the KGB

“In her 1974 memoir, Sanya: My Life with Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn”…, she wrote that she was ”perplexed” that the West had accepted ”The Gulag Archipelago” as ”the solemn, ultimate truth,” saying its significance had been ”overestimated and wrongly appraised.” Pointing out that the book’s subtitle is ”An Experiment in Literary Investigation,” she said that her husband did not regard the work as ”historical research, or scientific research.” She contended that it was, rather, a collection of ”camp folklore,” containing ”raw material” which her husband was planning to use in his future productions.”
Wife



Cuba might be the exception rather than the rule, haven't read much about that apart from the actual revolution. Communism is a really high control and high obedience kind of ideology that kinda suited some people I'm sure... the Stasi paying off a quarter of the East German population was positively Orwellian though -
Don Dunstan
I admit Cuba is no utopia but in the general regards it's doing pretty well considering it's circumstances. I have read about the DDR. If you want to learn about the stazi from both perspectives I recumbent you read Staziland by Anna funder. Agreed funny how you mention Eric Blair though. I find It surprising that more people don't know he was a lefty.

I read a book recently about the modern history of China and it was never really a single entity until the 19th century when repeated attacks by the West (and others) forced some degree of centralisation of power in the last few monarchs. The KMT tried to unify the Chinese nation but got over-run by the murderous Japanese... the more I read the more I'm convinced genocide is in our genes somehow!
Don dunstan
Indeed that is correct, however I was referring to modern day china being ethnically 'homogenous'. The west treated china like a blind old man that everyone bashed with little consequence, however that has changed.  I have not studied Chinese history in-depth enough, however I am studying it at school this year

All these things are just accidents of history; when leader X was in power they instigated policy Y.
don dunstan
Explain please? do you mean right place right time?

When you read a lot about China you realise it's not very homogeneous at all - even their claim to Taiwan is historically dubious. Anyway, I'm not convinced that China can keep their cyber-punk Orwellian "brainwashing" going forever, the Chinese diaspora who have experienced life in the West might not be so easy to keep under their control in the longer run... anyway.
Don dunstan
Disagree, China is a Han homogeny. I agree that their claim to Taiwan has nothing do back it up aside from 'the Qing dynasty owned it'. An interesting note is that the ROCs claimed territory is larger than what the PRC governs. The PRC will defiantly not last forever, history tells us that but I have a feeling that they will be around for some time to come.
More than enough material for another thread then.
don dunstan
I disagree, I think they intertwine with this discussion
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
At work presently but I'll discuss in detail when I get home...
  theanimal Chief Commissioner

Can I mention Don it is VERSUS not verses, unless this is a poetry or bible  thread?
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
Can I mention Don it is VERSUS not verses, unless this is a poetry or bible  thread?
theanimal
You're right, mea culpa.
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
Good. I agree that the stalinist horrors are underplayed and overshadowed by other atrocities. I disagree with Peterson on this subject though.  like I said, the gulag archipelago on my to read list. I have heard that he overplays them and underplays/fails to mention the crimes committed by the whites. Everyone has an agenda!

Interesting Solzhenitsyn's wife says about the gulag archipelago, though probably propaganda and myths as some claim she was effected by the KGB
Dangersdan707
Sorry it's been a while to respond, had to wait for a relaxing night in front of the computer with a glass of wine before I could respond.

Jordan Peterson is extremely even-handed in my opinion and sometimes he's too brutally honest for people about what psychology says about XYZ. Some of the stuff that he talks about is very intense and more related to psychology than politics - obviously because he's a clinical psychologist. But the point he makes about the Russian and Chinese genocides is basically valid, if you asked 10 of your friends what their knowledge of the Nazi Holocaust was they'd almost all know but most people genuinely don't know about the huge genocides that occurred under communism.
I admit Cuba is no utopia but in the general regards it's doing pretty well considering it's circumstances. I have read about the DDR. If you want to learn about the stazi from both perspectives I recumbent you read Staziland by Anna funder. Agreed funny how you mention Eric Blair though. I find It surprising that more people don't know he was a lefty.
Dangersdan707
Must admit I don't know enough about the Stasi apart from a few documentaries, I probably should read more. I've only recently digested Chinese 20th century history with a long book about it as I said earlier and frankly that was pretty bad - I can only handle so many communist crimes at a time...
Indeed that is correct, however I was referring to modern day china being ethnically 'homogenous'. The west treated china like a blind old man that everyone bashed with little consequence, however that has changed. I have not studied Chinese history in-depth enough, however I am studying it at school this year
Dangersdan707
There's a lot of suppression of anyone who isn't Han simply because "China" is an amalgamation of about a dozen large disparate ethnic groups - hence the camps in the west of the country. And no, they don't really have a valid historical claim to Taiwan.
  Carnot Chief Commissioner

I once talked to a former hardline and politically active Marxist who visited the Soviet Union before it disintegrated in the early 1990s.

After the visit this person quickly came to the conclusion that Marxism/Communism was a disaster...
  CraigW Assistant Commissioner

I once talked to a former hardline and politically active Marxist who visited the Soviet Union before it disintegrated in the early 1990s.

After the visit this person quickly came to the conclusion that Marxism/Communism was a disaster...
Carnot
Meanwhile we have "former" Communists such as Rhiannon doing their level best to destroy the Greens.

I am always amazed that communists get such a free and easy run on things. It is a "ism" that has equalled the disgusting record of Nazism and supporters of it should be treated with the same contempt that fascists are.

Craig W
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
I once talked to a former hardline and politically active Marxist who visited the Soviet Union before it disintegrated in the early 1990s.

After the visit this person quickly came to the conclusion that Marxism/Communism was a disaster...
Carnot
what era did this person visit in? When I know I will reply. A legitimate question out of curiosity so I can provide a robust answer.
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
Meanwhile we have "former" Communists such as Rhiannon doing their level best to destroy the Greens.

I am always amazed that communists get such a free and easy run on things. It is a "ism" that has equalled the disgusting record of Nazism and supporters of it should be treated with the same contempt that fascists are.

Craig W
CraigW
We could argue that Each has an agenda that they want to push (like everyone). Then again we have the conservatives who try not be act like there in bed with them. It's not like the 'free and democratic' capitalist side has been any better look at the proxy wars, coups and Literal genocide. The USA for example over it's history has oversaw the legitimised murder of (conservatively) around 120 million Native Americans. Along with that there is colonisation to take into account such as in literally every British colony. Look up the Bengali famine, done by our great saviour Churchill.

Everyone's Ideology and beliefs are guilty, we all like to whitewash them and pretend the others are worse.
Do I deny the Ukrainian famine happened? Do I deny the Great leap backwards happened? Nope

PS sorry if I come across as aggressive it's difficult when debating a topic such as this.
  CraigW Assistant Commissioner

Meanwhile we have "former" Communists such as Rhiannon doing their level best to destroy the Greens.

I am always amazed that communists get such a free and easy run on things. It is a "ism" that has equalled the disgusting record of Nazism and supporters of it should be treated with the same contempt that fascists are.

Craig W


Do I deny the Ukrainian famine happened? Do I deny the Great leap backwards happened? Nope

Dangersdan707
But you support the ideology that caused it?

Interesting morality or lack there of.

Craig W
  Carnot Chief Commissioner

I once talked to a former hardline and politically active Marxist who visited the Soviet Union before it disintegrated in the early 1990s.

After the visit this person quickly came to the conclusion that Marxism/Communism was a disaster...
what era did this person visit in? When I know I will reply. A legitimate question out of curiosity so I can provide a robust answer.
Dangersdan707
When Gorbachev was President.

Several other people I know visited both West and East Berlin in the late-1980s.  They came away with the same conclusions.

And there are some people in Melbourne who still want to conjure up the (political) ghosts of Lenin (the guy is stuffed and mounted for public viewing in Red Square), or Trotsky.  Crazy.
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
Sorry it's been a while to respond, had to wait for a relaxing night in front of the computer with a glass of wine before I could respond.
Don Dunstan
No problem, like me your only human (I think)
Jordan Peterson is extremely even-handed in my opinion and sometimes he's too brutally honest for people about what psychology says about XYZ. Some of the stuff that he talks about is very intense and more related to psychology than politics - obviously because he's a clinical psychologist. But the point he makes about the Russian and Chinese genocides is basically valid, if you asked 10 of your friends what their knowledge of the Nazi Holocaust was they'd almost all know but most people genuinely don't know about the huge genocides that occurred under communism.
Don Dunstan
Whilst I agree with Peterson that the crimes of stalinism are forgotten to due to popular reflection of the holocaust and it's amount of publicity,  I agree that most people do not know about the things that happened under stalinism and it's successors. For that I am entirely with you, but I disagree with calling the holodomer a genocide, historians are still arguing whether it was purposeful ethnic cleansing or unintended mass famine. With this I largely agree with because there is no denying the truth.
Must admit I don't know enough about the Stasi apart from a few documentaries, I probably should read more. I've only recently digested Chinese 20th century history with a long book about it as I said earlier and frankly that was pretty bad - I can only handle so many communist crimes at a time...
Don Dunstan

I can only handle so much about death and war too, from all sides of the political divide. Though I would really Recommend Staziland. I know the general overview of the PRC's history as I am yet to study it in depth, though I plan to in the second halve of the year.
There's a lot of suppression of anyone who isn't Han simply because "China" is an amalgamation of about a dozen large disparate ethnic groups - hence the camps in the west of the country. And no, they don't really have a valid historical claim to Taiwan.
Don dunstan
No Smeg, the main reason I believe that they are doing this is because it's easier to control a single ethnically homogenous nation rather than one made out multiple different ethnic groups. The best examples of multiethnic states I can think of are Tito's Yugoslavia (before it collapsed) and the Post Stalin USSR, I understand you may disagree with this, but your inclined to and if you do it will make the discussion more interesting. I agree that the claim to Taiwan is extremely dubious and I do not support it (china be like but the Qing owned it so we should too!). For comparison and discussion and I am not intending to defend the PRC here, have a look at the ROC's current territorial claims.
  Groundrelay Chief Commissioner

Location: Surrounded by Trolls!
Meanwhile we have "former" Communists such as Rhiannon doing their level best to destroy the Greens.

I am always amazed that communists get such a free and easy run on things. It is a "ism" that has equalled the disgusting record of Nazism and supporters of it should be treated with the same contempt that fascists are.

Craig W


Do I deny the Ukrainian famine happened? Do I deny the Great leap backwards happened? Nope
But you support the ideology that caused it?

Interesting morality or lack there of.

Craig W
CraigW
If only it was that straight forward Rolling Eyes

"Disaster" compared to what, given that Communism in Russia and China started from a low base which created the climate for revolution in the first place. For the vast majority of people the conditions were extremely harsh and they had nothing to lose. Contrast Australia where we had a growing middle class, much of the working class was unionised and most could vote.

Genocide as a tool of subjugation and ethnic cleansing has been around for centuries, however it was Germany under Hitler that took it to a level of precision and sophistication never seen. Stalin and Mao were ruthless and committed mass murder but it was more in keeping with what autocratic rulers have done since a cave man declared himself chief.
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
Meanwhile we have "former" Communists such as Rhiannon doing their level best to destroy the Greens.

I am always amazed that communists get such a free and easy run on things. It is a "ism" that has equalled the disgusting record of Nazism and supporters of it should be treated with the same contempt that fascists are.

Craig W


Do I deny the Ukrainian famine happened? Do I deny the Great leap backwards happened? Nope
But you support the ideology that caused it?

Interesting morality or lack there of.

Craig W
CraigW
According to that logic I could argue the something about the system we currently live in. Do you support the system we live in that is just as irresponsible? Interesting moral hypocrisy there.  Like I said earlier I am no stalinist despite defending branches of marxism.
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
Meanwhile we have "former" Communists such as Rhiannon doing their level best to destroy the Greens.

I am always amazed that communists get such a free and easy run on things. It is a "ism" that has equalled the disgusting record of Nazism and supporters of it should be treated with the same contempt that fascists are.

Craig W


Do I deny the Ukrainian famine happened? Do I deny the Great leap backwards happened? Nope
But you support the ideology that caused it?

Interesting morality or lack there of.

Craig W
If only it was that straight forward Rolling Eyes

"Disaster" compared to what, given that Communism in Russia and China started from a low base which created the climate for revolution in the first place. For the vast majority of people the conditions were extremely harsh and they had nothing to lose. Contrast Australia where we had a growing middle class, much of the working class was unionised and most could vote.

Genocide as a tool of subjugation and ethnic cleansing has been around for centuries, however it was Germany under Hitler that took it to a level of precision and sophistication never seen. Stalin and Mao were ruthless and committed mass murder but it was more in keeping with what autocratic rulers have done since a cave man declared himself chief.
Groundrelay
nailed it.
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
I once talked to a former hardline and politically active Marxist who visited the Soviet Union before it disintegrated in the early 1990s.

After the visit this person quickly came to the conclusion that Marxism/Communism was a disaster...
what era did this person visit in? When I know I will reply. A legitimate question out of curiosity so I can provide a robust answer.
When Gorbachev was President.

Several other people I know visited both West and East Berlin in the late-1980s.  They came away with the same conclusions.

And there are some people in Melbourne who still want to conjure up the (political) ghosts of Lenin (the guy is stuffed and mounted for public viewing in Red Square), or Trotsky.  Crazy.
Carnot
Ahh yes after the period of stagnation and during the period Glasnost and Perestroika I presume. The Late Ussr was a shambles, It was (in my view) bound to happen after the failure of Perestroika that brought about a massive economic collapse. It was ether (in retrospective) collapse or stagnate. Many historians view the golden years of the USSR as the 60s and 70s when the economy was constantly growing and living standards were increasing. I agree that the late ussr was a shambles undecided wether it was communist regime with liberal democracy and free market thrown on or a traditional marxist economy. It baffles many people that people are nostalgic to the old 'evil empire' due to it's general economic stability and guaranteed basic living conditions as average as they may have been compared to the average middle class yanks.

Trotsky has written some decent and (surprisingly unbiased) books on the Russian revolution and stalinism, yes I know of his leadership during the civil war and all that came along with that, but his books on history and criticism of stalinism are relevant today for socialists I believe. I think that the lessons of stalinism are deadly and needed to be remembered. (I Have I similar opinion on stalinism as Trotskyist's though I do not consider myself one.)

I know of Lenin's display cabinet in Moscow, I can understand why people have opposing views on the guy but he generally didn't do many things to out of line and died before any of the main mass death sprees happened.

Red flag and the other groups of nut job uni students are the main ones in Melbourne you're probably reffing too. and no, I'm not a member of any off them.
  Carnot Chief Commissioner

During Lenin's reign, some 200000+ died in the "Red Terror" he instigated. Many died under torture or via other atrocities committed by the Bolsheviks.  An evil man.

As in every Communist regime, everyone is either miserable and/or suspicious.
  CraigW Assistant Commissioner

Meanwhile we have "former" Communists such as Rhiannon doing their level best to destroy the Greens.

I am always amazed that communists get such a free and easy run on things. It is a "ism" that has equalled the disgusting record of Nazism and supporters of it should be treated with the same contempt that fascists are.

Craig W


Do I deny the Ukrainian famine happened? Do I deny the Great leap backwards happened? Nope
But you support the ideology that caused it?

Interesting morality or lack there of.

Craig W
According to that logic I could argue the something about the system we currently live in. Do you support the system we live in that is just as irresponsible? Interesting moral hypocrisy there.  Like I said earlier I am no stalinist despite defending branches of marxism.
Dangersdan707
Off the top of my head, I cannot think of a Western country that murdered some 20 million or so of its own citizens during the 1930s or 1960s though doubtless you will know of one somewhere.

I am equally astound that both you and Ground Relay are trying to suggest that these atrocities committed in the name of a belief system are somehow in different class to the carnage the 3rd Reich wrought.

By the way, to the achievements of the USSR you can also add the "liberation" of Eastern Europe, murder of political opponents and the subsequent enslavement for 40 odd years.

Let us add in the brutal suppression of uprisings in Hungary and Czechoslovakia for good measure.

Russia and China were in a bad way before the Communist revolutions, but the fact is that nothing improved afterwards. Most people still had the same grinding poverty but they also had ideology based indoctrination and murder on a large scale to add to their woes.

Capitalism has many faults and terrible things have been done building empires and expanding empires but we are also free to discuss them and have differing opinions on things, something that the leftist tribes seem to have difficulty with accepting. but of course, life in the former USSR and China was just peachy provided you did what you were told, thought what you were told and never spoke out about anything

What a great thing to be defending.

What you try and defend is as appalling as fascism.
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
Off the top of my head, I cannot think of a Western country that murdered some 20 million or so of its own citizens during the 1930s or 1960s though doubtless you will know of one somewhere.
CraigW
Bit inflated In my opinion but I can't say any better. I know of ones that happened earlier and In proxy wars  
What do classify as citizens? do you classify colonial subjects a citizens? do classify the murder of nations advancing their interests as ideological?  
Roughly 21 million people died (conservatively) in famines India when it was under British rule between 1769 and 1944. How about other countries citizens? like in Vietnam, Cambodia, Iraq, Iran, Nicaragua, El Salvador and Chile. The Nazi's committed the biggest genocide's of the 20th century with the campaigns against the jews, slav's, communists, homosexuals and gypsies, genocide is ethnic cleansing. While famine is no food or the lack of it due to poor government policy (the great leap backwards) or natural causes such.
No western nation in that period killed that many people at home, but internationally is a different story.
I am equally astound that both you and Ground Relay are trying to suggest that these atrocities committed in the name of a belief system are somehow in different class to the carnage the 3rd Reich wrought.
CraigW
They are though look up the definition of Genocide, It's purposeful unlike the Holodomor 'genocide'. they are mass atrocities that should be remembered and learned from but are different. How would you feel If we counted the crimes and famines of the European empires under the same category. People are biased and are unwilling to admit their own system has mistakes. All systems are flawed but our own biases and with our personal beliefs and ideology we try to portray the 'other' as the evil. I'm not saying stalinist Russia was a utopia.
By the way, to the achievements of the USSR you can also add the "liberation" of Eastern Europe, murder of political opponents and the subsequent enslavement for 40 odd years.
CraigW
I have already touched on that with @don_dunstan. If you go back through the thread you'll find my opinion of east Germany and the Eastern block there. You do realise that the invasion of eastern Europe was allowed by the allies. In my view that the oppression of Eastern Europe is extremely similar to the Western backed atrocities in the Americas and Asia both sides of the coin doing smeg things. while I agree that the majority of the eastern European regimes were hideous, why does this exist?
Let us add in the brutal suppression of uprisings in Hungary and Czechoslovakia for good measure.
CraigW
in the Prague Spring and Hungarian revolution (both of which were marxist Revolts BTW) had around (combined) death toll of around 2600 (most of these were in Hungary) Compare that to Indonesia where a minimum of 500,000 perished (backed by the Australian government BTW)
Russia and China were in a bad way before the Communist revolutions, but the fact is that nothing improved afterwards. Most people still had the same grinding poverty but they also had ideology based indoctrination and murder on a large scale to add to their woes.
CraigW
Very much true they where smegholes before communist revolutions. 'Nothing improved afterwards' is a myth, Who was first to space may I remind you and who is the world's biggest economy (Yes I know about the 'Embracing of the west'). This is almost pretending that the post war era of the USSR did not exist. I would say the indoctrination is still true for the PRC but not really for post stalinism USSR.
Capitalism has many faults and terrible things have been done building empires and expanding empires but we are also free to discuss them and have differing opinions on things, something that the leftist tribes seem to have difficulty with accepting. but of course, life in the former USSR and China was just peachy provided you did what you were told, thought what you were told and never spoke out about anything
CraigW
I accept that all those things happened like any sane person should. We speaking freely is only a privilege gifted to those by the capitalist system and I understand you may have a differing opinion. The nostalgia thing is true and if you did not speak out you were fine is true. I have never claimed to be a ussr fanboy but anyway I find myself balancing the political borad.
Capitalism won't last forever that is one thing history tells us, nothing can be more certain than nothing lasts forever.
What a great thing to be defending.
CraigW
Isn't everything, I think I'm just bringing balance to the political discourse here.
What you try and defend is as appalling as fascism.
CraigW
That my friend I disagree with as there have been more communist regimes in history than Fascist and the death toll is skewed heavily towards the Fascists.
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
During Lenin's reign, some 200000+ died in the "Red Terror" he instigated. Many died under torture or via other atrocities committed by the Bolsheviks.
Carnot
Many say as high as 500,000 actually others as low as 20,000 alas the dehumanisation of human lives is a sad thing of this thread comparing and contrasting differing systems each claiming (my self somewhat included) that there all flawed. It's not the the whites were any better though.

An evil man
Carnot
Many share this view and many don't. I respect your interpretation.
As in every Communist regime, everyone is either miserable and/or suspicious.
Carnot
Cuba? Rojava? Zapatistas? The CNT FAI controlled parts of Spain? I disagree.


A note on this thread now,
I am enjoying this discussion with you but I can't keep replying to this every hour I will look again in a few days and then reply, I am a bit drained sorry. Will be back to debate an discuss
  Carnot Chief Commissioner

Cuba as an example of ''good Communism"?

Fidel executed several thousand dissidents and others opposed to his regime after 1959.  Included in all that was forced labor camps and numerous other human rights abuses.

The CNT-FAI were a bunch of anarchist thugs who went around demolishing churches, murdering clergy, and terrorising those who were politically opposed to them.
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
Cuba as an example of ''good Communism"?
Carnot
In it's Present form, Yes. I has a fairly decent standard of living, a longer life expectance than that of the United States, decent education, health care and a somewhat fair elections (all political parties are forbidden from running including the reds) considering it's circumstances.

Fidel executed several thousand dissidents and others opposed to his regime after 1959. Included in all that was forced labor camps and numerous other human rights abuses.
Carnot
And Are we any different here and abroad? That pretty much happens during every violent revolution, look at American and French revolutions for examples. Do we talk about George Washington's slaves? no very often. I can not defend killing and imprisoning, but it happen with nearly every over through of a government.

The CNT-FAI were a bunch of anarchist thugs who went around demolishing churches, murdering clergy, and terrorising those who were politically opposed to them.
Carnot
Were? they still exist to this day. Demolishing churches no smeg that happened and killing clergy? You do know what side of the civil war the most of the church was on? To Them it was a symbol of The tolerated the Stalinists, The Trots and the liberals in that war, It's not like they were terrorising people constantly. If you were wealthy your factory would be taken over, yes.

Sponsored advertisement

Subscribers: CraigW, Dangersdan707, theanimal

Display from: