What can be done to improve suburban services in Newcastle and Wollongong

 
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

For shell harbour I might suggest you also speak to the RMS as to why there is a footpath that ends in a dead end at the rail overpass near the station? As for the rest of it I would suggest you speak to council or the RMS if the path is on a major road. Any of your issues that have a lack of safe access across roads you need to speak with council or the RMS.

For the lack of train stations you just need to keep applying pressure for a new station with sydney trains / nsw trainlink. glendale is complicated by the fact that a train station would be right at the entrance to EDI. A better solution would probably be to close cockle creek and build a new station to the north of lake road somewhere which would overcome many issues you just mentioned.

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  Ethan1395 Junior Train Controller

Location: An OSCar H Set
For the lack of train stations you just need to keep applying pressure for a new station with sydney trains / nsw trainlink. glendale is complicated by the fact that a train station would be right at the entrance to EDI. A better solution would probably be to close cockle creek and build a new station to the north of lake road somewhere which would overcome many issues you just mentioned.
simstrain

There are plans for a station at Glendale, but the NSW government is not prepared to fund it (see here), I don't think we should be closing any stations considering the serve shortage and potential for said stations,  
Cockle Creek is in a good location near a large Bunnings and proposed IKEA and Costco, and a new housing development, it's just limited by a few things: no safe place to cross the road to get to the station, no useful place to catch the train too from the station.

If possible, I would like to see even a station between Cockle Creek (renamed Boolaroo) and Glendale at Argenton, but this may see stations a little too close together, so alternatively a footpath alongside the railway line between Cockle Creek and Glendale linking Argenton could be useful, but another station would do best to keep people out of cars.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

For the lack of train stations you just need to keep applying pressure for a new station with sydney trains / nsw trainlink. glendale is complicated by the fact that a train station would be right at the entrance to EDI. A better solution would probably be to close cockle creek and build a new station to the north of lake road somewhere which would overcome many issues you just mentioned.

There are plans for a station at Glendale, but the NSW government is not prepared to fund it (see here), I don't think we should be closing any stations considering the serve shortage and potential for said stations,  
Cockle Creek is in a good location near a large Bunnings and proposed IKEA and Costco, and a new housing development, it's just limited by a few things: no safe place to cross the road to get to the station, no useful place to catch the train too from the station.

If possible, I would like to see even a station between Cockle Creek (renamed Boolaroo) and Glendale at Argenton, but this may see stations a little too close together, so alternatively a footpath alongside the railway line between Cockle Creek and Glendale linking Argenton could be useful, but another station would do best to keep people out of cars.
Ethan1395

That link is not about Glendale station but a bridge over the railway. Glendale has no retail entrance to the railway in any case and the bus interchange is a bit of a walk from where a station would go. Then there is edi and the entrance in to an important rail manufacturing / assembly / maintenance facility.

I'm not suggesting to close cockle creek and not have a replacement but to move it to the east of lake road where all the houses and businesses are resolving the access issue that someone brought up. Argenton which you mentioned is probably where I would put a station as well. Cockle creek has extremely low patronage but at Argenton this would change and there is room for a bus interchange and space for 4 tracks allowing expresses and freight to bypass an all stopper.
  gw0071 Deputy Commissioner

So much time to ponder the improbable, I'm surprised another light rail proposition has yet to surface
  Ethan1395 Junior Train Controller

Location: An OSCar H Set
That link is not about Glendale station but a bridge over the railway. Glendale has no retail entrance to the railway in any case and the bus interchange is a bit of a walk from where a station would go. Then there is edi and the entrance in to an important rail manufacturing / assembly / maintenance facility.

I'm not suggesting to close cockle creek and not have a replacement but to move it to the east of lake road where all the houses and businesses are resolving the access issue that someone brought up. Argenton which you mentioned is probably where I would put a station as well. Cockle creek has extremely low patronage but at Argenton this would change and there is room for a bus interchange and space for 4 tracks allowing expresses and freight to bypass an all stopper.
simstrain
A proposed station was also part of the plan with said bridge, as far as I know, the government has no interested funding either as they are suburban passenger heavy rail projects outside of Sydney.

Cockle Creek has historically had very low patronage due to it being fairly isolated and most likely poor frequency/no places to catch a train to, and poor accessibility.
But now there is the large Bunnings across the road, a new housing development going up near the station, and a proposal to built an IKEA and Costco next to the station. If suburban services were improved with trains running every 15 minutes and accessible stations at the right locations, patronage at Cockle Creek would likely improve.

I would like to see Cockle Creek-Argenton-Glendale-Cardiff, I'm not sure if these stations would be too close together or not, but neither would I like to see 8 carriage Waratah's running Newcastle suburban services, 4 carriage single deck trains at the most for the foreseeable future.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

That bridge to Pennant street would be a disaster since that is an industrial area and so it would mean heavy vehicles running through glendale shops 24/7.

The new entrance at stockland drive in to glendale shops kills off any premise for the road bridge to Pennant Street to exist. A train station is still a possibility but don't expect that road bridge any time soon.
  Ethan1395 Junior Train Controller

Location: An OSCar H Set
That bridge to Pennant street would be a disaster since that is an industrial area and so it would mean heavy vehicles running through glendale shops 24/7.

The new entrance at stockland drive in to glendale shops kills off any premise for the road bridge to Pennant Street to exist. A train station is still a possibility but don't expect that road bridge any time soon.
simstrain
It would be possible to restrict trucks from the bridge to keep them away from Glendale shops, but it's the train station that is the most essential thing anyway, not the bridge, just as long as there is pedestrian access from one side of the railway line to the other.

Anyway, assuming that the Newcastle suburban trains are single deck with 2x2 seating and wide asile (less dwell times), and width/carriage length is equal to an OSCar, would having stations at Cockle Creek - Argenton - Glendale - Cardiff be too closer together (assuming equal distance apart)?
  a6et Minister for Railways

That bridge to Pennant street would be a disaster since that is an industrial area and so it would mean heavy vehicles running through glendale shops 24/7.

The new entrance at stockland drive in to glendale shops kills off any premise for the road bridge to Pennant Street to exist. A train station is still a possibility but don't expect that road bridge any time soon.
It would be possible to restrict trucks from the bridge to keep them away from Glendale shops, but it's the train station that is the most essential thing anyway, not the bridge, just as long as there is pedestrian access from one side of the railway line to the other.

Anyway, assuming that the Newcastle suburban trains are single deck with 2x2 seating and wide asile (less dwell times), and width/carriage length is equal to an OSCar, would having stations at Cockle Creek - Argenton - Glendale - Cardiff be too closer together (assuming equal distance apart)?
Ethan1395
Why would you need to have 4 stations in that short area?  Taking Cardiff out of the equation as it has more density and passengers using the trains, but what would the other 3 provide, even Cockle Creek?

Being realistic, Cockle Creek as a station even in days gone by is wasted space and maintenance for how many passengers a day? Check the surrounding area to that station, who is going to walk up to the Bunnings warehouse as a rail user, go the other side of the station and you have a golf course and clubhouse there.  We commute to the CC from Victoria St on a regular basis and on the all stations south of Hamilton, I have yet to see more than one person get on or off at Cockle Creek.

Thing to also consider in this debate is that on the Eastern side of the line, you have a large industrial area, which would not provide good passenger access, nor really any real passenger growth.  Other side competing for space is the old Cardif Workshops - Downer EDI again few if any workers would use rail owing to many living away from the area and car transport shorter and more convenient.


The sensible option is one Station to serve the Glendale, Argenton and Cockle Creek rail users. the problem is where??? The further from Glendale shops less benefit and likely users, but on the western side of the line, unless land/houses are reclaimed for a commuter car park its going to be hard to find a close by/convenient spot for it.

The other aspect in all of this is that when you compare the stations in what I would deem as being NCL Suburban areas both west to Maitland/Telerah and outer suburbs such as Singleton and an extra return service being proposed for there, the CC line has many stations in their commuter potential area that are hardly used these days, owing to the frequency of buses serving the whole of Lake Mac areas and surrounds, the narrow strip that takes in Teralba, Booragul, hardly has passengers at all, few if any from the nursing home/retirement complex on the eastern side but they get a few schoolies though. A new big estate is being built on the Western side of Booragul but how many will move to use rail?

Those stations were well served when the Toronto trains ran, but the change at Fassifern when the branch was not electrified was a put off for many, and why it died.  Those older services were 2 cars even with DD's subs.

Finally, even if a suitable sized car park and access to Glendale shops was to be provided where would it go? To be on the South side, would there need to be a new shopper access at the rear of the shops? how would that be for security? The ideal one would be suggest is at the end of Montgomery St, if the end house and property could be purchased and converted but, what of other residents and would they want such a facility?
  Ethan1395 Junior Train Controller

Location: An OSCar H Set
Why would you need to have 4 stations in that short area? Taking Cardiff out of the equation as it has more density and passengers using the trains, but what would the other 3 provide, even Cockle Creek?

...

The sensible option is one Station to serve the Glendale, Argenton and Cockle Creek rail users.
a6et
Because only having one station would mean people would need to catch a bus, or worse, park & ride, to commute to or from their home/work/other destination that is alongside the rail line.

This would only make rail transport less convenient and fast and make car travel more convenient.

Being realistic, Cockle Creek as a station even in days gone by is wasted space and maintenance for how many passengers a day? Check the surrounding area to that station, who is going to walk up to the Bunnings warehouse as a rail user, go the other side of the station and you have a golf course and clubhouse there. We commute to the CC from Victoria St on a regular basis and on the all stations south of Hamilton, I have yet to see more than one person get on or off at Cockle Creek.
a6et
No one is going to use the station currently with 1 train per hour on weeekdays and only 1 train per 2 hours on weekends, and if they have to risk their life to access the station (no safe pedestrian access across road).

Also, currently all the station has is Bunnings and the golf club, but there is a new housing development going up near the station, and a proposal for an IKEA and Costco next to the station. With a decent service (4 trains per hour), safe accessibility, and new and accessible stations in the right locations elsewhere on the line (such as Kotora), the station might actually get used.

few if any workers would use rail owing to many living away from the area and car transport shorter and more convenient.
a6et
Car transport is currently shorter and more convenient, but should we settle for that? rail lines and public transport have been being destroyed for the past century in Newcastle and as a result, the area has an extremely high car culture.

This car culture has led to things like little/no consideration for pedestrian access in urban planning (which impacts rail patronage since people can't safely cross roads to access stations).

The other aspect in all of this is that when you compare the stations in what I would deem as being NCL Suburban areas both west to Maitland/Telerah and outer suburbs such as Singleton and an extra return service being proposed for there, the CC line has many stations in their commuter potential area that are hardly used these days, owing to the frequency of buses serving the whole of Lake Mac areas and surrounds, the narrow strip that takes in Teralba, Booragul, hardly has passengers at all, few if any from the nursing home/retirement complex on the eastern side but they get a few schoolies though. A new big estate is being built on the Western side of Booragul but how many will move to use rail?
a6et
I don't think the frequency of buses serving Lake Macquarie and sorrounds has anything to do with rail patronage since buses also have hardly anyone using them. Public transport in Newcastle/Lake Macquarie is all around terrible and as I mentioned earlier, has progressively been destroyed for the past century leading to the car culture we have today. The result of this is urban planning not considering pedestrian access and making public transport even more difficult to use.

So that's when you have to ask the question? do we just neglect this and only invest in public transport in Sydney and no where else and making it so the only people who can afford to live near convenient public transport, are those who can afford to drive everywhere, or is something going to be done about this.

Regarding Booragul, like Cockle Creek, no one from the new big estate is going to use the station when frequency is terrible (1 train per hour weekdays, 1 train her 2 hours weekends), or when their train flies straight past their railside destination with no station, or when they risk getting wiped out because there is no pedestrian crossing when the get off the train.
  a6et Minister for Railways

Why would you need to have 4 stations in that short area? Taking Cardiff out of the equation as it has more density and passengers using the trains, but what would the other 3 provide, even Cockle Creek?

...

The sensible option is one Station to serve the Glendale, Argenton and Cockle Creek rail users.
Because only having one station would mean people would need to catch a bus, or worse, park & ride, to commute to or from their home/work/other destination that is alongside the rail line.

This would only make rail transport less convenient and fast and make car travel more convenient.

Being realistic, Cockle Creek as a station even in days gone by is wasted space and maintenance for how many passengers a day? Check the surrounding area to that station, who is going to walk up to the Bunnings warehouse as a rail user, go the other side of the station and you have a golf course and clubhouse there. We commute to the CC from Victoria St on a regular basis and on the all stations south of Hamilton, I have yet to see more than one person get on or off at Cockle Creek.
No one is going to use the station currently with 1 train per hour on weeekdays and only 1 train per 2 hours on weekends, and if they have to risk their life to access the station (no safe pedestrian access across road).

Also, currently all the station has is Bunnings and the golf club, but there is a new housing development going up near the station, and a proposal for an IKEA and Costco next to the station. With a decent service (4 trains per hour), safe accessibility, and new and accessible stations in the right locations elsewhere on the line (such as Kotora), the station might actually get used.

few if any workers would use rail owing to many living away from the area and car transport shorter and more convenient.
Car transport is currently shorter and more convenient, but should we settle for that? rail lines and public transport have been being destroyed for the past century in Newcastle and as a result, the area has an extremely high car culture.

This car culture has led to things like little/no consideration for pedestrian access in urban planning (which impacts rail patronage since people can't safely cross roads to access stations).

The other aspect in all of this is that when you compare the stations in what I would deem as being NCL Suburban areas both west to Maitland/Telerah and outer suburbs such as Singleton and an extra return service being proposed for there, the CC line has many stations in their commuter potential area that are hardly used these days, owing to the frequency of buses serving the whole of Lake Mac areas and surrounds, the narrow strip that takes in Teralba, Booragul, hardly has passengers at all, few if any from the nursing home/retirement complex on the eastern side but they get a few schoolies though. A new big estate is being built on the Western side of Booragul but how many will move to use rail?
I don't think the frequency of buses serving Lake Macquarie and sorrounds has anything to do with rail patronage since buses also have hardly anyone using them. Public transport in Newcastle/Lake Macquarie is all around terrible and as I mentioned earlier, has progressively been destroyed for the past century leading to the car culture we have today. The result of this is urban planning not considering pedestrian access and making public transport even more difficult to use.

So that's when you have to ask the question? do we just neglect this and only invest in public transport in Sydney and no where else and making it so the only people who can afford to live near convenient public transport, are those who can afford to drive everywhere, or is something going to be done about this.

Regarding Booragul, like Cockle Creek, no one from the new big estate is going to use the station when frequency is terrible (1 train per hour weekdays, 1 train her 2 hours weekends), or when their train flies straight past their railside destination with no station, or when they risk getting wiped out because there is no pedestrian crossing when the get off the train.
Ethan1395
As I said above when the Toronto services were running as through trains, there were reasonable numbers, and IIRC in peak 3 trains an hour.  The replacement from Steam to diesel saw the patronage not basically change same with the TT's then changing at Fassifern from one mode to the other did affect services, yet they had one train to Toronto every couple of hours off peak, by the time of demise.

If there was to be any hope for increased services it would be a reasonable move to add services based on one of either two older options, they being; 1: Hourly off peak services to Morriset and return with Sydney connections.. 2: Return services to Fassifern and back with connecting buses to Toronto.

That also would be the only way to increase services and have additional new stations in place, pretty well means an all stations suburban service.

How many people and be honest would use rail from both the big Bunnings store and eve when Costco goes in there?  Imagine the number of trolleys and time to push down to CC with their goods, get on train and then get off - where?  Those types of shops are strictly for boot filling sales or trailer brigades.
  gw0071 Deputy Commissioner

Precisely A6

Outside of the major capitals we are very much a car-centric society, none more so than Newcastle. Most of the proposals being presented here are fanciful and beyond 2030 at least, when private vehicles will more than likely be powered by alternate fuels, hence ownership and usage even more abundant

Equal to the Bunnings/Costco analogy, would a resident of say Toronto West walk out thier front door, past their vehicle in the driveway, jump on a bus, then 'tram' followed by a train stopping every 5km and finally another 'tram' to get to Newscastle Beach?

A girl can dream I suppose
  a6et Minister for Railways

Precisely A6

Outside of the major capitals we are very much a car-centric society, none more so than Newcastle. Most of the proposals being presented here are fanciful and beyond 2030 at least, when private vehicles will more than likely be powered by alternate fuels, hence ownership and usage even more abundant

Equal to the Bunnings/Costco analogy, would a resident of say Toronto West walk out thier front door, past their vehicle in the driveway, jump on a bus, then 'tram' followed by a train stopping every 5km and finally another 'tram' to get to Newscastle Beach?

A girl can dream I suppose
gw0071
That's the whole point in this debate, who and how many will use the extra stations?  Glendale shops are for locals, and they either drive or bus to it.

As a fireman in the 60's & 70's and working on the short north at least once a fortnight each way from Enfield to BMD/PTW, the amount of people seen on all the stations mentioned in this thread, the only one that ever seemed to have more than a few on it was Cardiff Booragul & Teralba had some schoolies the adults were  far and few between. The reorganising of the system even the venture to extend to Morriset the suburbans didn't do anything really for increasing patronage.

Morriset is growing as much if not more than other locations, so is Wyee with a couple of large housing developments. Its possible that trains which terminated at Wyong in the off peak could extend to Morriset with a change trains to NCLE serving those stations, which may help people to go on rail.  Wyee is to finally get lifts which could also be a big help as well.
  Ethan1395 Junior Train Controller

Location: An OSCar H Set
As I said above when the Toronto services were running as through trains, there were reasonable numbers, and IIRC in peak 3 trains an hour. The replacement from Steam to diesel saw the patronage not basically change same with the TT's then changing at Fassifern from one mode to the other did affect services, yet they had one train to Toronto every couple of hours off peak, by the time of demise.

If there was to be any hope for increased services it would be a reasonable move to add services based on one of either two older options, they being; 1: Hourly off peak services to Morriset and return with Sydney connections.. 2: Return services to Fassifern and back with connecting buses to Toronto.

That also would be the only way to increase services and have additional new stations in place, pretty well means an all stations suburban service.

How many people and be honest would use rail from both the big Bunnings store and eve when Costco goes in there? Imagine the number of trolleys and time to push down to CC with their goods, get on train and then get off - where? Those types of shops are strictly for boot filling sales or trailer brigades.
a6et
Was patronage at stations like Teralba and Booragul decent back when they had 3 trains per hour going through to Toronto?

I think the Fassifern return is more appropriate with a rebuilt Toronto line (Fassifern station is kind of isolated with the old Toronto station being in a commercial area.

I wouldn't expect too many shoppers using rail at Cockle Creekfor Bunnings, Costco, and IKEA, but it wouldn't just be for shoppers, it would be for workers and residents of the new housing development.

Equal to the Bunnings/Costco analogy, would a resident of say Toronto West walk out thier front door, past their vehicle in the driveway, jump on a bus, then 'tram' followed by a train stopping every 5km and finally another 'tram' to get to Newscastle Beach?
gw0071
Public transport needs to be made more convenient than that - and car transport needs to be made less convenient - toll the Newcaslte bypass and introduce paid parking in more places for everyone who has no valid reason for using a car, and use the revenue to fund public transport, and at the same time, half the fares and double the patronage.

That's the whole point in this debate, who and how many will use the extra stations? Glendale shops are for locals, and they either drive or bus to it.
a6et
It's difficult to say who would use the extra stations since has something like this ever been seen before? a city where the rail line passes though destinations with no stations. If people are driving, we should not be content with that, unless they have a valid reason (buying 15kg of groceries is a valid reason, going to the movies is not, neither is going to work a valid reason unless their job actually requires them to have a car) for using a car, they should have to pay for tolls and parking. Car transport is too convenient in Newcastle to the point of compromising pedestrian safety - the front entrance to Stockland Glendale has a large multi-lane roundabout with no pedestrian crossing in sight.
And Glendale shops are also for workers.
  a6et Minister for Railways

Was patronage at stations like Teralba and Booragul decent back when they had 3 trains per hour going through to Toronto?

I think the Fassifern return is more appropriate with a rebuilt Toronto line (Fassifern station is kind of isolated with the old Toronto station being in a commercial area.

I wouldn't expect too many shoppers using rail at Cockle Creekfor Bunnings, Costco, and IKEA, but it wouldn't just be for shoppers, it would be for workers and residents of the new housing development.

Equal to the Bunnings/Costco analogy, would a resident of say Toronto West walk out thier front door, past their vehicle in the driveway, jump on a bus, then 'tram' followed by a train stopping every 5km and finally another 'tram' to get to Newscastle Beach?
Public transport needs to be made more convenient than that - and car transport needs to be made less convenient - toll the Newcaslte bypass and introduce paid parking in more places for everyone who has no valid reason for using a car, and use the revenue to fund public transport, and at the same time, half the fares and double the patronage.

That's the whole point in this debate, who and how many will use the extra stations? Glendale shops are for locals, and they either drive or bus to it.
It's difficult to say who would use the extra stations since has something like this ever been seen before? a city where the rail line passes though destinations with no stations. If people are driving, we should not be content with that, unless they have a valid reason (buying 15kg of groceries is a valid reason, going to the movies is not, neither is going to work a valid reason unless their job actually requires them to have a car) for using a car, they should have to pay for tolls and parking. Car transport is too convenient in Newcastle to the point of compromising pedestrian safety - the front entrance to Stockland Glendale has a large multi-lane roundabout with no pedestrian crossing in sight.
And Glendale shops are also for workers.
Ethan1395
Teralba had more passengers than Booragul.  Booragul was and still is limited as the primary residents nearby are in nursing facilities, the station buildings are gone, and says it all. Our daughter has purchased land in the new estate on the west side, but the station access needs to be hugely improved, her children go to Fassifern for school but she drives them as she works there.  It is a nothing station at best, and on the trains we catch that stop there, no one gets on or off. Nil parking and there is some at Teralba, in fact access to the new estate and road bridge puts Teralba at a similar distance and not in the middle of bushland like B.

The aspect back then with 3 trains an hour was peak only, and mainly for schoolies which I had mentioned, as patronage declined, the services were cut as often the off peaks were empty.  The only thing that gives Toronto anything as a possible would be for weekend visitors, but how many trains and at what cost to rebuild?

As I pointed out in my first post, where will rail commuters park?  If you are looking for workers to use new stations, how come the old Cardiff/Sulphide station is not being used for the workers at EDI? it could have a o/head walkway to the east side industrial area but again who would use it.  Most of those who work there are from the area or from the west side and few would go by rail to change at Hamilton and head down that way.

You cannot build a station and expect results for it unless there is public submissions made along with a business case. While I support almost every area to improve rail and PT options, there comes a time when reality sees that there is no case for it, especially now.

You point out no ped crossing near the round a bout, what does that tell you?  people drive and where is the bus stops for the centre?
  Ethan1395 Junior Train Controller

Location: An OSCar H Set
Teralba had more passengers than Booragul. Booragul was and still is limited as the primary residents nearby are in nursing facilities, the station buildings are gone, and says it all. Our daughter has purchased land in the new estate on the west side, but the station access needs to be hugely improved, her children go to Fassifern for school but she drives them as she works there. It is a nothing station at best, and on the trains we catch that stop there, no one gets on or off. Nil parking and there is some at Teralba, in fact access to the new estate and road bridge puts Teralba at a similar distance and not in the middle of bushland like B.

The aspect back then with 3 trains an hour was peak only, and mainly for schoolies which I had mentioned, as patronage declined, the services were cut as often the off peaks were empty. The only thing that gives Toronto anything as a possible would be for weekend visitors, but how many trains and at what cost to rebuild?

As I pointed out in my first post, where will rail commuters park? If you are looking for workers to use new stations, how come the old Cardiff/Sulphide station is not being used for the workers at EDI? it could have a o/head walkway to the east side industrial area but again who would use it. Most of those who work there are from the area or from the west side and few would go by rail to change at Hamilton and head down that way.

You cannot build a station and expect results for it unless there is public submissions made along with a business case. While I support almost every area to improve rail and PT options, there comes a time when reality sees that there is no case for it, especially now.

You point out no ped crossing near the round a bout, what does that tell you? people drive and where is the bus stops for the centre?
a6et

Access needs to be improved at almost EVERY station in Newcastle (even Hamilton has issues), this is probably one of the reasons for low patronage.

Regarding public submissions and business case, unfortunately people in Newcastle are content in their cars, not seeing the issues - bias/inequality in employment, no consideration for pedestrians in urban planning, difficulty for small businesses, places being in inconvenient locations since everyone drives, - the public transport is needed, but the content population doesn't know it since they have their cars and they are happy in them.

Bus stop is inside the shopping centre at Glendale but so are more roundabouts. The buses in Newcastle also have low patroange, usually only consisting of students and elderly, they might fare a little bit better than trains since they serve more areas (since most lines have been ripped out and converted to cycleways), easier for old people (few stations have lifts), and stop outside of major locations (which trains pass by without stations), but still, most people drive and this is a problem.

-------

Anyway, for the sake of not dwelling on Fassifern-Glendale for a while, let's discuss further down the line past the Tickhole Tunnel, what is your opinion on the situation there;

The existing Kotara station is miles from the commercial area but not useless, as well as serving the residential area, it is near the popular Blackbutt Reserve but once again there is the Novacastrian tradition of no pedestrian across across the busy footpathless Carnley Avenue to make this of any use. And on the other side of the station, the pavement leading up from Park Avenue is all cracked and broken and has not been maintained in decades, and the platform lies in isolation making passengers feeling unsafe using the station.

Down the line, the trains pass the busy commercial area which is adjacent to the tracks, the Kotara Homemakers Centre lies closes to the line with Westfield across the road, but not only is there no station, there isn't even any direct pedestrian access between Westfield and the Homemakers Centre or over the railway line to the suburbn of Blackbutt, pedestrians are forces to take long detours and follow the sames routes as cars.

Things are decent at Adamstown but the lack of frequency and destinations keeps patronage low, Broadmeadow could do with direct pedestrian access to Lamton Road but does decently.

Even at Hamilton issues start to arise again, there is no crossing across busy Beaumont Street at the station, forcing pedestrians to take detours to the traffic lights, but there are pedestrian crossings across the road near the station on the little quiet side streets - now seriously, how can this possibly happen? how can urban planning go so wrong?

Heading up the Hunter Line, the line passes over the Clyde Street level crossing near Newcatle TAFE with no station, and under the Maud Street bridge near the Marter Hospital with no station.

What's your opinon on this mess, can we agree things need to change?

-------

Also, I was wondering, do you think Wollongong has a better chance of getting suburban rail improved (remember, this topic is about Wollongong as well) than Newcastle does?
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

Also, I was wondering, do you think Wollongong has a better chance of getting suburban rail improved (remember, this topic is about Wollongong as well) than Newcastle does?
Ethan1395

I grew up in, and again now live in the Illawarra, and I know it far better than the Newcastle region.

The short answer is no: there won't be an improvement in services.  The current Gvt doesn't want to do it.  They are ideologically opposed to public transport in any form, and certainly not where it won't win them votes/seats.  Demand pressure for improvements would need to be enormous.

That said, I believe my scheme outlined here (https://www.railpage.com.au/f-p2131426.htm#2131426) - which is as a first priority about improving connectivity to Sydney - or more acculturately the greater Sydney area (Sydney CBD is just the hub) - would also achieve the objectives your suggest.

It would implement *faster* PT from the Shellharbour region to Wollongong and Nth Wollongong than travelling by car.

It would more than double frequencies.

It would implement an effective feeder bus network, expanding the catchment to cover most people in the region.

All of these combined would increase the utility of the system for local suburban purposes roughly four fold.
  a6et Minister for Railways

Teralba had more passengers than Booragul. Booragul was and still is limited as the primary residents nearby are in nursing facilities, the station buildings are gone, and says it all. Our daughter has purchased land in the new estate on the west side, but the station access needs to be hugely improved, her children go to Fassifern for school but she drives them as she works there. It is a nothing station at best, and on the trains we catch that stop there, no one gets on or off. Nil parking and there is some at Teralba, in fact access to the new estate and road bridge puts Teralba at a similar distance and not in the middle of bushland like B.

The aspect back then with 3 trains an hour was peak only, and mainly for schoolies which I had mentioned, as patronage declined, the services were cut as often the off peaks were empty. The only thing that gives Toronto anything as a possible would be for weekend visitors, but how many trains and at what cost to rebuild?

As I pointed out in my first post, where will rail commuters park? If you are looking for workers to use new stations, how come the old Cardiff/Sulphide station is not being used for the workers at EDI? it could have a o/head walkway to the east side industrial area but again who would use it. Most of those who work there are from the area or from the west side and few would go by rail to change at Hamilton and head down that way.

You cannot build a station and expect results for it unless there is public submissions made along with a business case. While I support almost every area to improve rail and PT options, there comes a time when reality sees that there is no case for it, especially now.

You point out no ped crossing near the round a bout, what does that tell you? people drive and where is the bus stops for the centre?

Access needs to be improved at almost EVERY station in Newcastle (even Hamilton has issues), this is probably one of the reasons for low patronage.

Regarding public submissions and business case, unfortunately people in Newcastle are content in their cars, not seeing the issues - bias/inequality in employment, no consideration for pedestrians in urban planning, difficulty for small businesses, places being in inconvenient locations since everyone drives, - the public transport is needed, but the content population doesn't know it since they have their cars and they are happy in them.

Bus stop is inside the shopping centre at Glendale but so are more roundabouts. The buses in Newcastle also have low patroange, usually only consisting of students and elderly, they might fare a little bit better than trains since they serve more areas (since most lines have been ripped out and converted to cycleways), easier for old people (few stations have lifts), and stop outside of major locations (which trains pass by without stations), but still, most people drive and this is a problem.

-------

Anyway, for the sake of not dwelling on Fassifern-Glendale for a while, let's discuss further down the line past the Tickhole Tunnel, what is your opinion on the situation there;

The existing Kotara station is miles from the commercial area but not useless, as well as serving the residential area, it is near the popular Blackbutt Reserve but once again there is the Novacastrian tradition of no pedestrian across across the busy footpathless Carnley Avenue to make this of any use. And on the other side of the station, the pavement leading up from Park Avenue is all cracked and broken and has not been maintained in decades, and the platform lies in isolation making passengers feeling unsafe using the station.

Down the line, the trains pass the busy commercial area which is adjacent to the tracks, the Kotara Homemakers Centre lies closes to the line with Westfield across the road, but not only is there no station, there isn't even any direct pedestrian access between Westfield and the Homemakers Centre or over the railway line to the suburbn of Blackbutt, pedestrians are forces to take long detours and follow the sames routes as cars.

Things are decent at Adamstown but the lack of frequency and destinations keeps patronage low, Broadmeadow could do with direct pedestrian access to Lamton Road but does decently.

Even at Hamilton issues start to arise again, there is no crossing across busy Beaumont Street at the station, forcing pedestrians to take detours to the traffic lights, but there are pedestrian crossings across the road near the station on the little quiet side streets - now seriously, how can this possibly happen? how can urban planning go so wrong?

Heading up the Hunter Line, the line passes over the Clyde Street level crossing near Newcatle TAFE with no station, and under the Maud Street bridge near the Marter Hospital with no station.

What's your opinon on this mess, can we agree things need to change?

-------

Also, I was wondering, do you think Wollongong has a better chance of getting suburban rail improved (remember, this topic is about Wollongong as well) than Newcastle does?
Ethan1395
I would suggest Kotara is another station that could be closed without much loss and a newer one built nearer to the Homemakers centre, thing is that with Adamstown a low patronage station also, it is one that could be eliminated one thing for sure it would help the congestion at the level crossing with down stopping trains.  Its interesting that in steam days or when the old down yard line behind #2 platform existed, we were stopped at the up end signal when a passenger train was behind us, we got the road and usually the van was passing the crossing at the same time as the pax service.

My only concern with a move of Kotara station is the cost and how many more people it would generate going to the centre, likely it would be more but, you move a station from a residential area that is established to business area, and timetables need to be condusive for people to use the system at times for start/finish without long waits.  Kotara also is likely going through a generation change of the age of families living there as well.

I would say that Blackbutt reserve would be a bit far to walk for most people, also the bus transport along nearby streets make it not a viable proposition.  Blackbutt reserve is a nice spot, but it needs a lot of work to be done on it, if the station was next to the reserve it may get some extras though.

Fair call for pedestrian crossings needed to cross Beaumont St even at the station side of the two crossroads either side of the station, other than that owing to it being congested a road overpass with steps to the other side would help.

Station near the Tafe??? I could not see that as an option without a lot of research as to how many would use such a station.
Realistically the station would have to built near the Clyde St level crossing creating another bottleneck for cars when trains stop there.  It would only be a short platform one would think but it would be more a problem than found at Hamilton, as you have freight services and coal traffic, along with the XPT and XPL services requiring paths.  Its not unusual to see up coal trains waiting for a Hunter train to go past for the coaly to come out of the PTW triangle & head south.  Bare in mind that an up Hunter train usually has a 5-10 minute connection for an up urban its like watching a snails protest march getting going.

Question is how many students use Warabrook for Uni Access??  Not sure about numbers there and from the Warabrook suburbs, although I will say that every one of the Maitland trains stop there and usually have several people getting on and off. The interesting aspect of the Hunter line is that East Maitland used to be the primary station but now only one train per hour off peak stops there, whereas Victoria St has all trains stopping, much more growth on the northern side of the line and something will be needed to be done with car parking spots, both sides are often full through the week.

One thing I will say though, the trams have done nothing to get more people on them compared to when the trains ran into NCLE terminal, it has saved nothing as far as time it takes to get to the beach from Wickham - Change - Tram - walk to beach than NCL Terminal and walk to beach, is quicker.
  stooge spark Train Controller

Location: My House
IIRC Warabrook is the busiest station on the Hunter line, with about a thousand passengers per day.
  a6et Minister for Railways

IIRC Warabrook is the busiest station on the Hunter line, with about a thousand passengers per day.
stooge spark
Would not doubt that but.  I can only go on what I actually see when traveling on rail, which is at different times of the day and very infrequently on weekends now because of the removal of the V sets from the CC line on weekends.  A trip to Sydney as such is murder on my back with the hard/harsh seats on the others.

To get those numbers though would be interesting to see the break up of them the first up service from Maitland is at 0347 for the commencement of the day, there being 47 up services including a peak of 5 trains in the 0714 - 0803 primary peak that go through Victoria St.  The evening peak seems to be between 1548 and 1714 for down services from Wickham, with similar gaps. they include the current single services to Scone and Dungog.

Those times would certainly be in the timeframe for university lecture days.  We usually catch the 0747 service when travelling to Sydney or to the CC and find its fairly full from Victoria St, with around 10 getting off at Warabrook,  Metford is not a busy station even though all trains stop there, whereas Thornton and Beresfield are the next in as far as patronage is concerned

Weekend services are 27 a day each direction and on those days of travel its hard to tell the numbers but on the few occasions though its much less than the week days.

One thing I have noticed though is that most services are down on numbers in the evenings, if we get back after 2000. there's not a lot on the train, and picking my wife up on trains after 1700 the car park is all but empty.
To get a throughput of 1000 a day, it would mean an average of a bit over 10 for every train would get on/off there with having a total of 94 services a day M-F, taking it over a weekend
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

need the passing loops to allow the extra frequency.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE

The short answer is no: there won't be an improvement in services. The current Gvt doesn't want to do it.  They are ideologically opposed to public transport in any form, and certainly not where it won't win them votes/seats.  Demand pressure for improvements would need to be enormous.

djf01
Thats a bit of WTF Dif01

NWRL
Sydney Metro
Western Metro
SSELR
New interurban rolling stock
New Regional Rolling stock
More B-Sets
Hell, even the Newcastle LR over rapid bus option previously promoted for a replacement on the Newcastle line.


I'd hate to see a govt who really didn't want to build PT, oh wait, just go back to before 2011. Announce, then not build, or start to build and then cancel the other half, interurban rollingstock with one toilet in a 4 car set, low back seating.....
  Ethan1395 Junior Train Controller

Location: An OSCar H Set
I would suggest Kotara is another station that could be closed without much loss and a newer one built nearer to the Homemakers centre, thing is that with Adamstown a low patronage station also, it is one that could be eliminated one thing for sure it would help the congestion at the level crossing with down stopping trains. Its interesting that in steam days or when the old down yard line behind #2 platform existed, we were stopped at the up end signal when a passenger train was behind us, we got the road and usually the van was passing the crossing at the same time as the pax service.

My only concern with a move of Kotara station is the cost and how many more people it would generate going to the centre, likely it would be more but, you move a station from a residential area that is established to business area, and timetables need to be condusive for people to use the system at times for start/finish without long waits. Kotara also is likely going through a generation change of the age of families living there as well.

I would say that Blackbutt reserve would be a bit far to walk for most people, also the bus transport along nearby streets make it not a viable proposition. Blackbutt reserve is a nice spot, but it needs a lot of work to be done on it, if the station was next to the reserve it may get some extras though.

Fair call for pedestrian crossings needed to cross Beaumont St even at the station side of the two crossroads either side of the station, other than that owing to it being congested a road overpass with steps to the other side would help.

Station near the Tafe??? I could not see that as an option without a lot of research as to how many would use such a station. Realistically the station would have to built near the Clyde St level crossing creating another bottleneck for cars when trains stop there. It would only be a short platform one would think but it would be more a problem than found at Hamilton, as you have freight services and coal traffic, along with the XPT and XPL services requiring paths. Its not unusual to see up coal trains waiting for a Hunter train to go past for the coaly to come out of the PTW triangle & head south. Bare in mind that an up Hunter train usually has a 5-10 minute connection for an up urban its like watching a snails protest march getting goin

Question is how many students use Warabrook for Uni Access?? Not sure about numbers there and from the Warabrook suburbs, although I will say that every one of the Maitland trains stop there and usually have several people getting on and off. The interesting aspect of the Hunter line is that East Maitland used to be the primary station but now only one train per hour off peak stops there, whereas Victoria St has all trains stopping, much more growth on the northern side of the line and something will be needed to be done with car parking spots, both sides are often full through the week.

One thing I will say though, the trams have done nothing to get more people on them compared to when the trains ran into NCLE terminal, it has saved nothing as far as time it takes to get to the beach from Wickham - Change - Tram - walk to beach than NCL Terminal and walk to beach, is quicker.
a6et

Patroange at the existing Kotara station would be a lot better if you could access Blackbutt Reserve which is actually really close but there is no pedestrian access and was safe to use.
Patronage at Adamstown would also likely improve if frequency and destinations were improved, the station already has lifts and there a plans to replace the nearby intersection with traffic lights which will both improve accessibility for pedestrians and could possibly be timed to avoid level crossing congestion.

Nice to see we agree about the situation as Hamitlon, but can someone please tell me how this can even happen, the council pays for crossings on the quiet streets with little traffic, and ignores the busy one which actually requires a crossing?

I personally have studied at Newcastle TAFE and a few students did get off the train at Hamilton and walk (myself included) and were probably annoyed to see the Hunter train pass them without a station, if the train was more convenient, maybe more people would use it, but car travel would also need to be less convenient since people have probably been programmed to use their car for everything.

Warabrook station apparently has relativity high patronage and was ironically built as an addition station in 1995, well after the line and other stations opened, and that is what I'm talking about, building more stations in major locations since the line is there, but the trains don't stop, they only stop at smaller locations where few use them (once again, probably due to frequency, accessibility, and lack of places to catch trains to).
I also heard that prior to Warabrook stations construction, Uni students were jumping from moving trains, I'm not sure how true this is but considering the 620/720-class that used to run the line, it's possible.

-------

Just on a side note, you mention commuter car parks a fair bit, while they are important, people should be encouraged by urban planning and transport to get to the station by other means - either walking, cycling, or feeder bus - a car should NOT be required to use public transport. And just because a commuter car park can't fit, doesn't mean a station shouldn't be built, especially if it's a destination station like Glendale.

-------

Also, unfortunately, everything is going to cost money, but public transport in Newcastle has been neglected and destroyed for a century, and this is just the cost of cleaning it up.

need the passing loops to allow the extra frequency.
simstrain
Would quadding the line between Fassifern and Woodville Junction be better? less points to maintain and fail, and less stuff to go wrong, leading to a more reliable and convenient service.

The short answer is no: there won't be an improvement in services. The current Gvt doesn't want to do it. They are ideologically opposed to public transport in any form, and certainly not where it won't win them votes/seats. Demand pressure for improvements would need to be enormous.
Thats a bit of WTF Dif01

NWRL -Sydney
Sydney Metro -Sydney
Western Metro -Sydney
SSELR -Sydney
New interurban rolling stock -Primary destination is Sydney
New Regional Rolling stock -Primary destination is Sydney
More B-Sets -Sydney
Hell, even the Newcastle LR over rapid bus option previously promoted for a replacement on the Newcastle line. -It's literally a toy, call me back when the line is extended.


I'd hate to see a govt who really didn't want to build PT, oh wait, just go back to before 2011. Announce, then not build, or start to build and then cancel the other half, interurban rollingstock with one toilet in a 4 car set, low back seating.....
RTT_Rules

I'm not sure if it's what Dif01 were referring to, but he's right to say that the current government is ideologically opposed to public transport in any form outside of Sydney, and that is what this topic is about - How to improve LOCAL services OUTSIDE OF SYDNEY.
  djf01 Chief Commissioner


The short answer is no: there won't be an improvement in services. The current Gvt doesn't want to do it.  They are ideologically opposed to public transport in any form, and certainly not where it won't win them votes/seats.  Demand pressure for improvements would need to be enormous.
Thats a bit of WTF Dif01

NWRL
Sydney Metro
Western Metro
SSELR
New interurban rolling stock
New Regional Rolling stock
More B-Sets
Hell, even the Newcastle LR over rapid bus option previously promoted for a replacement on the Newcastle line.interurban rollingstock with one toilet in a 4 car set, low back seating.....
RTT_Rules

NWRL had it's own political dynamic.

Sydney Metro driven primarily by the form factor of the NWRL, which in turn was driven (at least in part) by a desire *not* to invest in existing PT.  

I know it's not the full story, but it's certainly part of it, and I think supports rather than counters my assertion the Libs just don't like PT ideologically.


But fleet renewal as an argument the Libs want to increase services?

We still have S-Sets and V-Sets in the SWT FFS.  I would argue the current Gvt has done *less* than the bare minimum in terms of fleet renewal.  It was the current Premier which cancelled the extension of the A-Set order.

And in fairness, *no-one* has wanted to adequately address the V-Set fleet issue, extending as far back as the Unsworth Lab Gvt (IIRC) which cancelled the V-Set program while U-boats were still running.

But I would argue the fleet renewal program during the course of this administration has been insufficient to cope with the organic growth in patronage, which itself has not kept pace with population growth.  They have been ordering the bare minimum to maintain the status quo at the time of the order, and not by the time the order has been fulfilled.  hence, we are slipping further behind the curve at the bottom end.  We are looking at T-Sets having a planned 50+ year service life.

The Newcastle Fiasco highlights the problem better than anything.  Not so much the outcome, but the ideology driving these decisions.  None of it happened from a desire to improve services.  BTW, have a look in 6 maps sat at where they built the tram shed, and then talk to me about extensions Smile.

Western Metro?  It's being driven by property development, and two small ones (relative to the size of the metro project) at that.

We're way off topic as it is, but I maintain the Libs are ideologically opposed to PT, and service improvements in particular.  

If any Gvt were serious about regional local rail PT, we'd be looking at getting a small fleet of small, cost effective EMUs: ~150-250 seats in a 2-3 car DOO format, as well as appropriately renegotiating the EBA.  As if to underline my point: ideally something that can be maintained at Dubbo.

@Ethan - even if all the other issues were resolved, our rail systems simply don't have the fleet - either in quantity or quality - to provide anything better than a 60min frequency.
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

I'd hate to see a govt who really didn't want to build PT, oh wait, just go back to before 2011. Announce, then not build, or start to build and then cancel the other half, interurban rollingstock with one toilet in a 4 car set, low back seating.....
RTT_Rules

One more comment on this:
You are confusing incompetence with indifference.
  a6et Minister for Railways


Patroange at the existing Kotara station would be a lot better if you could access Blackbutt Reserve which is actually really close but there is no pedestrian access and was safe to use.
Patronage at Adamstown would also likely improve if frequency and destinations were improved, the station already has lifts and there a plans to replace the nearby intersection with traffic lights which will both improve accessibility for pedestrians and could possibly be timed to avoid level crossing congestion.

Nice to see we agree about the situation as Hamitlon, but can someone please tell me how this can even happen, the council pays for crossings on the quiet streets with little traffic, and ignores the busy one which actually requires a crossing?

I personally have studied at Newcastle TAFE and a few students did get off the train at Hamilton and walk (myself included) and were probably annoyed to see the Hunter train pass them without a station, if the train was more convenient, maybe more people would use it, but car travel would also need to be less convenient since people have probably been programmed to use their car for everything.

Warabrook station apparently has relativity high patronage and was ironically built as an addition station in 1995, well after the line and other stations opened, and that is what I'm talking about, building more stations in major locations since the line is there, but the trains don't stop, they only stop at smaller locations where few use them (once again, probably due to frequency, accessibility, and lack of places to catch trains to).
I also heard that prior to Warabrook stations construction, Uni students were jumping from moving trains, I'm not sure how true this is but considering the 620/720-class that used to run the line, it's possible.

-------

Just on a side note, you mention commuter car parks a fair bit, while they are important, people should be encouraged by urban planning and transport to get to the station by other means - either walking, cycling, or feeder bus - a car should NOT be required to use public transport. And just because a commuter car park can't fit, doesn't mean a station shouldn't be built, especially if it's a destination station like Glendale.

-------

Also, unfortunately, everything is going to cost money, but public transport in Newcastle has been neglected and destroyed for a century, and this is just the cost of cleaning it up.

need the passing loops to allow the extra frequency.
Would quadding the line between Fassifern and Woodville Junction be better? less points to maintain and fail, and less stuff to go wrong, leading to a more reliable and convenient service.

The short answer is no: there won't be an improvement in services. The current Gvt doesn't want to do it. They are ideologically opposed to public transport in any form, and certainly not where it won't win them votes/seats. Demand pressure for improvements would need to be enormous.
Thats a bit of WTF Dif01

NWRL -Sydney
Sydney Metro -Sydney
Western Metro -Sydney
SSELR -Sydney
New interurban rolling stock -Primary destination is Sydney
New Regional Rolling stock -Primary destination is Sydney
More B-Sets -Sydney
Hell, even the Newcastle LR over rapid bus option previously promoted for a replacement on the Newcastle line. -It's literally a toy, call me back when the line is extended.


I'd hate to see a govt who really didn't want to build PT, oh wait, just go back to before 2011. Announce, then not build, or start to build and then cancel the other half, interurban rollingstock with one toilet in a 4 car set, low back seating.....

I'm not sure if it's what Dif01 were referring to, but he's right to say that the current government is ideologically opposed to public transport in any form outside of Sydney, and that is what this topic is about - How to improve LOCAL services OUTSIDE OF SYDNEY.
Ethan1395
Commuter car parks are a basic essential for commuters to access stations.  Buses are in most respects trains on rubber wheels and not all run to stations or connect with trains. I see that every day at Victoria st station where buses arrive and depart before a train arrives, and K&P cars arrive on both sides as a result. Other aspect is that buses do not go to all areas, therefore a long walk for many to bus stops but need to leave extra early to catch a bus to get them to the station in time for the train.

Both forms of PT are needed and both serve their different purposes.  Connections that work are what is needed, case point with Kotara is how far to walk for commuters from Park Ave to the station from a bus stop, same on other side but at least there are buses closer to that station.  To walk to the Reserve, could be done but either end of housing cluster would be long and then getting across busy Carnley Ave would be problematic.  Realistically though with the population base around Kotara there is little if any possible case for any housing growth which is the only way more stopping services would be needed.

Again any aspect of having a station build for the Tafe would need to have a really strong case with numbers, especially when there are buses that run along the Pacific Highway and stop at the front of the Tafe, a short walk also from Hamilton station.  As I said before, a new station between Islington Jct and Clyde st would be the only spot for it, but it would create a lot of issues for the level crossing delays, also fitting the trains into the timetables, stopping trains add at least 3 minutes to the tt, 1 minute to stop, 1 at the station and 1 to acceleration, and that's the very least.

Warabrook.  The reason for the station was two fold, firstly it came as a result of the old Abatoirs being closed and the new housing estate of Warabrook being developed back in the 80's. The other reason was the building of the uni and its extension into a top uni that attracted students not just from the local area but from o/seas as well.  There was a very strong business case for it to happen and why it happened.  Thing is when one looks at the considerable amount of car parks in the complex, along with the amount of buses that also go into the campus, and mostly stop at more convenient stops closer to the majority of lecture rooms, its no wonder not that many use the station.  Thing I notice is how many travel by train also take push bikes with them and ride from the top of the lifts to the campus.

As for people supposedly jumping off moving trains even on 620cl that is a load of rubbish, only those wanting to commit suicide would do so, even if you went back to the old steam services, a train that stopped at Waratah would have been going no less than around 50km/h with a 30tank or faster with 32/35/36cl, as they would have gained speed after the grade and coal road flyover.  Same in the opposite direction with Sandgate, although they would have a bit slower after stopping there, if a through service the speed would have been greater.

The putting in of lights at Adamstown is dumb, as its not going to eliminate the problem of how long the crossing is blocked for.  The putting in of lifts there means its going to stay, yet its a station that really does not need them as far as urgency is concerned. A gate controlled by track circuits with a protected pedestrian crossing would work, if people who used the station used their brains.  The only real long term solution is for either an overbridge or under bridge to take the traffic on Glebe Road, only problem may be the pub would not like it as it may take away custom, access to the old driver training area would be no issue as there is enough vacant land available for access in to that spot.

There may be some inconveniences to people in nearby surrounding areas, but at least there would be no more bells ringing for ages while the 1.5m and longer length trains going through there.

At the end of the day, I am all for improved PT, especially for areas that need them a station was also built at Metford for what was an expanding area, every train stops there, at least those I have been on, even the skipping ones, yet at best it may have 1/2 dozen people get on or off, often no one on or off.  That area has not developed, a good sized carpark was put in and its rare to see a dozen or so cars in there.

Certainly there really needs to be a real hard look at PT services in the Hunter region, especially as its still the biggest growth area in NSW, but go to all the road intersections to the by passes and see how many cars are parked there as so many use shared car traveling to Sydney and other areas. There are several large new estates at Rutherland and across to where the old Station of Farley was, could there be a case for a station to be built there?  Who knows!  But the majority of people are still car centric in their travel use.

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