XPT replacement thread 2019

 
  simstrain Chief Commissioner


Why would we want to go back to year 1950 for?
Nobody mentioned going back to steam hauled...
The Vinelander

That is why I changed the date from 1900 to 1950.

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  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner


Why would we want to go back to year 1950 for?
Nobody mentioned going back to steam hauled...
That is why I changed the date from 1900 to 1950.
simstrain
Why bother clarifying? We all know if the NSW authorities announced they were hiring a steam fleet to drag around XPTs you'd be all over it like a rash, telling us how visionary they were.
  a6et Minister for Railways


Why would we want to go back to year 1950 for?
Nobody mentioned going back to steam hauled...
That is why I changed the date from 1900 to 1950.
simstrain
Nostalgia.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner


Why would we want to go back to year 1950 for?
Nobody mentioned going back to steam hauled...
That is why I changed the date from 1900 to 1950.Nostalgia.
a6et
We have heritage operators for that. In fact the transport heritage expo is this weekend if you want Nostalgia.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner


Why would we want to go back to year 1950 for?
Nobody mentioned going back to steam hauled...
That is why I changed the date from 1900 to 1950.Why bother clarifying? We all know if the NSW authorities announced they were hiring a steam fleet to drag around XPTs you'd be all over it like a rash, telling us how visionary they were.
potatoinmymouth

Only if it was a solar powered electric steam train.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
They don't doesn't equal they cannot. Just a matter of signing a contract. However the locos purchased in recent decade or two I would say never had pax haulage in mind and hence are there locos with HEP etc to utilise? Or will some serious money need to be spent to upgrade.

Sydney trains doesn't own any loco's aside from a couple of 48's for moving rolling stock around for maintenance. They also haven't purchased any locomotives since selling the freight part of the business to PN.
simstrain
I'll think you will find ownership of an asset is not a sole pre-requirement to actually running a business/service.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

They don't doesn't equal they cannot. Just a matter of signing a contract. However the locos purchased in recent decade or two I would say never had pax haulage in mind and hence are there locos with HEP etc to utilise? Or will some serious money need to be spent to upgrade.

Sydney trains doesn't own any loco's aside from a couple of 48's for moving rolling stock around for maintenance. They also haven't purchased any locomotives since selling the freight part of the business to PN.
I'll think you will find ownership of an asset is not a sole pre-requirement to actually running a business/service.
RTT_Rules

Still not going to happen outside of heritage events/tours like this weekend. It is either an XPT, Xplorer, Endeavour or a BUS for passenger services in NSW currently. Loco haul is not happening for NSW trainlink.
  matthewg Train Controller

Local hauling the XP coaches as a stop gap isn't going to happen. NSW Trains would have to hire locomotives and crews. But the drivers that come with the locomotives wouldn't be passenger qualified. Their own drivers wouldn't be qualified to operate the locomotives.
So add in training costs.

No locomotives commonly available have HEP. So that means finding power vans or 'constructing' some. The XPT power feed isn't Australian standard HEP, so even if some power vans magically appeared (excuse me THNSW, can we borrow the Aurora power van for a few months?) the safety trips would have to be modified.
I have seen a passenger train in another country who's power van was a gen set bolted to a container flat, but you need to at least start with a container flat with passenger speed rated bogies. And you still need to design build and test an interface box with the safety trips.

And then assuming you overcome all that at least 3 of the XPT terminals have no run-around facilities anymore, so you need a locomotive at each end - and then MU down the train to control the rear locomotive - if only to avoid hauling that dead weight at the rear at passenger train speeds.

mm, might as well bodge up the XP power cars to keep them working just long enough...

There has been a worldwide trend in passenger trains to move away from locomotive/power car hauled to 'distributed traction' to better match power required with train length. The locomotive hauled passenger train is now a niche product.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
They don't doesn't equal they cannot. Just a matter of signing a contract. However the locos purchased in recent decade or two I would say never had pax haulage in mind and hence are there locos with HEP etc to utilise? Or will some serious money need to be spent to upgrade.

Sydney trains doesn't own any loco's aside from a couple of 48's for moving rolling stock around for maintenance. They also haven't purchased any locomotives since selling the freight part of the business to PN.
I'll think you will find ownership of an asset is not a sole pre-requirement to actually running a business/service.

Still not going to happen outside of heritage events/tours like this weekend. It is either an XPT, Xplorer, Endeavour or a BUS for passenger services in NSW currently. Loco haul is not happening for NSW trainlink.
simstrain
So you agree, its purely a matter of will. If they want to do it, it will happen.

Broken Hill was briefly hauled by two 422 classes and XPT cars if I recall before the XPL was available, but was stopped well before the XPL. Not sure why but being an odd-ball loco hauled probably didn't help.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

So you agree, its purely a matter of will. If they want to do it, it will happen.

Broken Hill was briefly hauled by two 422 classes and XPT cars if I recall before the XPL was available, but was stopped well before the XPL. Not sure why but being an odd-ball loco hauled probably didn't help.
RTT_Rules

No I don't agree. It ain't happening and someone just posted why it won't happen. As I have said that was the past and not what will be in 2019. Someone with a 422 could run a journey but there isn't going to be a regular loco hauled service in NSW ever again. If an X can't do it then a bus can.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
Local hauling the XP coaches as a stop gap isn't going to happen. NSW Trains would have to hire locomotives and crews. But the drivers that come with the locomotives wouldn't be passenger qualified. Their own drivers wouldn't be qualified to operate the locomotives.
So add in training costs.

No locomotives commonly available have HEP. So that means finding power vans or 'constructing' some. The XPT power feed isn't Australian standard HEP, so even if some power vans magically appeared (excuse me THNSW, can we borrow the Aurora power van for a few months?) the safety trips would have to be modified.
I have seen a passenger train in another country who's power van was a gen set bolted to a container flat, but you need to at least start with a container flat with passenger speed rated bogies. And you still need to design build and test an interface box with the safety trips.

And then assuming you overcome all that at least 3 of the XPT terminals have no run-around facilities anymore, so you need a locomotive at each end - and then MU down the train to control the rear locomotive - if only to avoid hauling that dead weight at the rear at passenger train speeds.

mm, might as well bodge up the XP power cars to keep them working just long enough...

There has been a worldwide trend in passenger trains to move away from locomotive/power car hauled to 'distributed traction' to better match power required with train length. The locomotive hauled passenger train is now a niche product.
matthewg
You are not thinking Agricultural enough, 1-2 of the spare EC cars could butchered and have a Genset stuck inside them, but I like the idea of placing a Genset on a container base and simply using a container flat.

Top and tailing the train with a loco would solve shunting issues.

Or probably much easier to just contract the construction of two more XP power cars, you could even go cheap and order 1-2 two power cars and another Trailer power car to save on shunting and use the empty space on the loco as luggage storage and crew area. So Canberra and Dubbo services could still run with a single power car and avoid shunting.

Yes, in all seriousness I know it won't happen mostly due to the new fleet arriving soon and the XPT fleet being made redundant with the XPL fleet being retained for what ever. However there are numerous technical options available for doing various options with the XPT fleet if it was needed.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

RTT you are going to so much trouble to do something that will just be a waste of money and time for nsw trainlink since they are getting new rolling stock in a few years. Xplorers can survive in that world but XPT's will not and most definitely TNSW is not going to waste money in the meantime making the XPT carriages ready to be loco hauled when a Bus is a much cheaper and more viable option.

In conclusion it doesn't matter if you could technically do it. It will not be happening.
  ANR Assistant Commissioner

I have seen more XPLs on the Dubbo service this week.

If the CAF is not due on the rails within 12 months, having locos on hand with the right livery and converted power cars would be a no brainer. If I had the skills and talent to do an artists impression, I would do it. Short of this, look at the pictures in a recent thread that shows an EL pulling a broken down XPT set near the Hawkesbury.

I think an EL or RL type loco would do the trick.  An AN might be overkill. Lease them for a couple of years and give the existing maintenance crews sufficient time to address XP issues/parts etc. It is a no brainer.

I reckon the use of XPLs on a western plains service has to result in bustitutions elsewhere.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

I have seen more XPLs on the Dubbo service this week.

If the CAF is not due on the rails within 12 months, having locos on hand with the right livery and converted power cars would be a no brainer. If I had the skills and talent to do an artists impression, I would do it. Short of this, look at the pictures in a recent thread that shows an EL pulling a broken down XPT set near the Hawkesbury.

I think an EL or RL type loco would do the trick.  An AN might be overkill. Lease them for a couple of years and give the existing maintenance crews sufficient time to address XP issues/parts etc. It is a no brainer.

I reckon the use of XPLs on a western plains service has to result in bustitutions elsewhere.
ANR

Loco hauled passenger services aren't returning in NSW. An EL can pull a broken down XPT or even an electric double deck but not with passengers in them. As mentioned the XPT carriages are not the same as old rolling stock or what Victoria is using. There is a reason why bustitution occurs when an XPT or XPL is broken down or involved in an incident.
  BDA Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
Local hauling the XP coaches as a stop gap isn't going to happen. NSW Trains would have to hire locomotives and crews. But the drivers that come with the locomotives wouldn't be passenger qualified. Their own drivers wouldn't be qualified to operate the locomotives.
So add in training costs.

No locomotives commonly available have HEP. So that means finding power vans or 'constructing' some. The XPT power feed isn't Australian standard HEP, so even if some power vans magically appeared (excuse me THNSW, can we borrow the Aurora power van for a few months?) the safety trips would have to be modified.
I have seen a passenger train in another country who's power van was a gen set bolted to a container flat, but you need to at least start with a container flat with passenger speed rated bogies. And you still need to design build and test an interface box with the safety trips.

And then assuming you overcome all that at least 3 of the XPT terminals have no run-around facilities anymore, so you need a locomotive at each end - and then MU down the train to control the rear locomotive - if only to avoid hauling that dead weight at the rear at passenger train speeds.

mm, might as well bodge up the XP power cars to keep them working just long enough...

There has been a worldwide trend in passenger trains to move away from locomotive/power car hauled to 'distributed traction' to better match power required with train length. The locomotive hauled passenger train is now a niche product.
matthewg
There are crews qualified to loco haul passenger trains , with people in them . Wouldn't be the first time the X arrived in Brisevaguess with an NR on the front .
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

There are crews qualified to loco haul passenger trains , with people in them . Wouldn't be the first time the X arrived in Brisevaguess with an NR on the front .
BDA

Obviously you don't listen. NR's can't haul XPT carriages with passengers in them because they can't provide power to the XPT. As mentioned by matthewg the XPT carriages are not normal run of the mill passenger carriages like what vline has.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
There are crews qualified to loco haul passenger trains , with people in them . Wouldn't be the first time the X arrived in Brisevaguess with an NR on the front .

Obviously you don't listen. NR's can't haul XPT carriages with passengers in them because they can't provide power to the XPT. As mentioned by matthewg the XPT carriages are not normal run of the mill passenger carriages like what vline has.
simstrain
Convert a sitter to a aux power car.
  ANR Assistant Commissioner

My thoughts exactly. In a world of amazing tech developments, this is a no brainer. We have had more agricultural setups in the past.

With a few RLs or ELs pulling/pushing an XPT set (with a converted generator car) when the XP power cars are unavailable, nobody would notice except the die hard purists.

This would be a stop gap until the CAFs arrive to save the day (but probably not because they would need a long time to get service ready).
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

There are crews qualified to loco haul passenger trains , with people in them . Wouldn't be the first time the X arrived in Brisevaguess with an NR on the front .

Obviously you don't listen. NR's can't haul XPT carriages with passengers in them because they can't provide power to the XPT. As mentioned by matthewg the XPT carriages are not normal run of the mill passenger carriages like what vline has.
Convert a sitter to a aux power car.
RTT_Rules

For what reason would they waste money on that for. The coach is there and cheaper and already available.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
There are crews qualified to loco haul passenger trains , with people in them . Wouldn't be the first time the X arrived in Brisevaguess with an NR on the front .

Obviously you don't listen. NR's can't haul XPT carriages with passengers in them because they can't provide power to the XPT. As mentioned by matthewg the XPT carriages are not normal run of the mill passenger carriages like what vline has.
Convert a sitter to a aux power car.

For what reason would they waste money on that for. The coach is there and cheaper and already available.
simstrain
Thats not we were talking about. Read the bit above,

Convert a redundant EC car into a Aux power car.

Yes we know the CAF trains are only a few years away so it won't happen, mostly referring to what could of happened in the past.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

no this is just fantasy in certain peoples heads. It ain't happening and never would have happened even though with the poor reliability of the XPT's there was ample opportunity to do so over the years.
  mikado5917 Beginner

no this is just fantasy in certain peoples heads. It ain't happening and never would have happened even though with the poor reliability of the XPT's there was ample opportunity to do so over the years.
simstrain
To bring this thread back from fantasyland, I note that Greater Anglia in the UK have this week introduced their bi-mode Stadler Flirts to service. What an opportunity for innovation was wasted when the Stadler proposal for the replacement package for intercity and regional trains was rejected. Able to operate under the wires and more powerful than Endeavour/Explorer sets out beyond, with over 1000 units of a proven design worldwide.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

To bring this thread back from fantasyland, I note that Greater Anglia in the UK have this week introduced their bi-mode Stadler Flirts to service. What an opportunity for innovation was wasted when the Stadler proposal for the replacement package for intercity and regional trains was rejected. Able to operate under the wires and more powerful than Endeavour/Explorer sets out beyond, with over 1000 units of a proven design worldwide.
mikado5917
The stadler design was never going to work in NSW because it is a low floor design. Our platforms are over 1 metre in height.

The CAF design is also capable of having the overhead installed on them and having done a little bit of research it is much more suited to the NSW network then the Flirt.

I was just looking at the british rail 755 class and there is a diesel power unit in the middle of the train. I couldn't think of a worse place to put a power unit on a train.
  Alphatron Station Staff

Location: Wellington
Standard platform height in the UK is 915mm so clearly Stadler have worked out a way of applying their rolling stock technology to high platform railways
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Standard platform height in the UK is 915mm so clearly Stadler have worked out a way of applying their rolling stock technology to high platform railways
Alphatron

Sydney's is much higher then that although I can't find the exact numbers anywhere at the moment. In any case the Stadler design wasn't part of any of the tenders and the CAF design was and is extremely modern with a diesel electric multiple unit setup.

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