PLA entering Hong Kong?

 
  SinickleBird Chief Train Controller

Location: Qantas Club at Mudgee International Airport
This forum has transformed from being commentary on important world events into a personal feud, almost overnight.

Thanks for the belly laughs this morning, don_Dunstan and valvegear.

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  lsrailfan Chief Commissioner

Location: Somewhere you're not
Hong Kong airport is in chaos tonight, with up to 100 flights having been cancelled, 100s of protestors have crammed into the airport blocking up the arrivals terminal, and spewing over into the departure's, honestly! do these people have nothing better to do with their time! this has been going on for 10 weeks now!
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
This forum has transformed from being commentary on important world events into a personal feud, almost overnight.

Thanks for the belly laughs this morning, don_Dunstan and valvegear.
SinickleBird
Hey, Valvegear knows how much I love to stir - and in the end he admitted that his choice of words wasn't good. But my point stands: We are very, very lucky here in Australia to not get visited in the middle of the night by the secret police and dragged away never heard from again. It's a reality for many people on the planet (not just in China).

Hong Kong has the capacity to turn into another Tienanmen pretty quickly I think - the Chinese Communist Party is finding itself pretty boxed in at the moment and might lash out.

Interesting times.
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
The whole sticking point is that Hong Kong was supposed to keep its existing justice system (inherited from Britain), and now there is the insidious "takeover by stealth" that China is trying.
I don't blame the people for rising up against it.
But, it just can't continue or Hong Kong will be ruined and China will arrive to "rescue" the place. The only solution that I can see is the Hong Kong government now committing firmly to the existing system. Whether China will subsequently permit that is another question, but, for heaven's sake the government must act decisively now.
It may already be too late - I hope not.
Another thing that we don't know is how many pro-China demonstrators are in the mix, stirring things along.
Having just been there, I like the place, but I wouldn't go back right now.
  Carnot Chief Commissioner

The situation in Hong Kong has become utterly humiliating to the CCP in Beijing.  The protesters know that this is their best chance to have free democratic elections there, before it's too late.  I wish them well, but my gut feel is that we'll see a couple of million flee the joint before too long.  What will Australia's response be?

And then on Q&A last night there was the spectacle of a panelist defending Beijing.  What a circus!
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
I didn't see Q&A last night but I read about it this morning. I think basically our own domestic politicians are terrified of commenting on Hong Kong for fear of upsetting the Chinese and bringing on sanctions against Australia. This is part of the problem in dealing with the Chinese Communist Party, you're not allowed to say or write anything that could potentially offend them - so nobody in leadership (apart from Andrew Hastie and Peter Dutton) seems prepared to say anything - at all.

I really don't blame the people of Hong Kong for trying to bring this thing to a head - they don't live in a democratic society and it's getting progressively worse as the CCP prepares for a complete take-over of the place thanks to the deal done with Margaret Thatcher in 1984. I for one would be long "disappeared" or "re-educated" if I lived under CCP rule, even though I'm just some private citizen with an opinion.
  Carnot Chief Commissioner

I didn't see Q&A last night but I read about it this morning. I think basically our own domestic politicians are terrified of commenting on Hong Kong for fear of upsetting the Chinese and bringing on sanctions against Australia. This is part of the problem in dealing with the Chinese Communist Party, you're not allowed to say or write anything that could potentially offend them - so nobody in leadership (apart from Andrew Hastie and Peter Dutton) seems prepared to say anything - at all.

I really don't blame the people of Hong Kong for trying to bring this thing to a head - they don't live in a democratic society and it's getting progressively worse as the CCP prepares for a complete take-over of the place thanks to the deal done with Margaret Thatcher in 1984. I for one would be long "disappeared" or "re-educated" if I lived under CCP rule, even though I'm just some private citizen with an opinion.
don_dunstan
Incidentally, the Useful Idiots of the Greens and Socialist Alternative in Australia are again demonstrating their stupidity.  Muppets:
https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/clive-hamilton-slams-useful-idiots-of-chinese-influence-on-campus-20190808-p52f8c.html

I would rather Andrew Hastie speak the truth than be shutdown by the local sock puppets of the CCP.
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
Incidentally, the Useful Idiots of the Greens and Socialist Alternative in Australia are again demonstrating their stupidity.  Muppets:
https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/clive-hamilton-slams-useful-idiots-of-chinese-influence-on-campus-20190808-p52f8c.html

I would rather Andrew Hastie speak the truth than be shutdown by the local sock puppets of the CCP.
Carnot
CCP operatives have been going about their business intimidating any opposition in Australia for years - I think this is what the outgoing head of ASIO was trying to warn us about. University campuses should be a place where you're free to express an opinion, instead places like UQ and UNSW have been actively trying to shut down debate. Those "Confucius Institutes" are a shocking indictment on the inability of the government to recognise and act on CCP activities in Australia, all aided and abetted by their sock-puppets Bob Carr and Paul Keating et al.

And at least there are a few politicians in the LNP brave enough to speak out about the CCP's soft power push - where is the equivalent on the ALP side? Instead they have apologists like Penny Wong saying "don't say anything, you'll upset them".
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Video released today of a long line of PLA trucks entering Hong King from Shenzen.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
  bingley hall Minister for Railways

Location: Last train to Skaville
I didn't see Q&A last night but I read about it this morning. I think basically our own domestic politicians are terrified of commenting on Hong Kong for fear of upsetting the Chinese and bringing on sanctions against Australia. This is part of the problem in dealing with the Chinese Communist Party, you're not allowed to say or write anything that could potentially offend them - so nobody in leadership (apart from Andrew Hastie and Peter Dutton) seems prepared to say anything - at all.

I really don't blame the people of Hong Kong for trying to bring this thing to a head - they don't live in a democratic society and it's getting progressively worse as the CCP prepares for a complete take-over of the place thanks to the deal done with Margaret Thatcher in 1984. I for one would be long "disappeared" or "re-educated" if I lived under CCP rule, even though I'm just some private citizen with an opinion.
Incidentally, the Useful Idiots of the Greens and Socialist Alternative in Australia are again demonstrating their stupidity.  Muppets:
https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/clive-hamilton-slams-useful-idiots-of-chinese-influence-on-campus-20190808-p52f8c.html

I would rather Andrew Hastie speak the truth than be shutdown by the local sock puppets of the CCP.
Carnot

The Godwin's law for the 21st Century - when things go wrong blame the Greenies Razz
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
Waiting for Xi to Send the tanks in...
  bingley hall Minister for Railways

Location: Last train to Skaville
bevans

Fake news?
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
Incidentally, the Useful Idiots of the Greens and Socialist Alternative in Australia are again demonstrating their stupidity.  Muppets:
https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/clive-hamilton-slams-useful-idiots-of-chinese-influence-on-campus-20190808-p52f8c.html

I would rather Andrew Hastie speak the truth than be shutdown by the local sock puppets of the CCP.
CCP operatives have been going about their business intimidating any opposition in Australia for years - I think this is what the outgoing head of ASIO was trying to warn us about. University campuses should be a place where you're free to express an opinion, instead places like UQ and UNSW have been actively trying to shut down debate. Those "Confucius Institutes" are a shocking indictment on the inability of the government to recognise and act on CCP activities in Australia, all aided and abetted by their sock-puppets Bob Carr and Paul Keating et al.

And at least there are a few politicians in the LNP brave enough to speak out about the CCP's soft power push - where is the equivalent on the ALP side? Instead they have apologists like Penny Wong saying "don't say anything, you'll upset them".
don_dunstan
Don't Want to bite the Hand that feeds you after all, Our economy is in bed with them it's all about the money. Theres going to be only more as china surpasses the decaying hulk of the United States.

Oh and @Carnot the Greens and SA are complete naive buffoons, wouldn't take much of what they say seriously after all they called Syzria 'Revolutionary'. I had an argument with a bunch of them on a trip to Monash a while back for backing Pro USA Rebels in Syria. They've been debunked may times.
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
Don't Want to bite the Hand that feeds you after all, Our economy is in bed with them it's all about the money. Theres going to be only more as china surpasses the decaying hulk of the United States.
Dangersdan707
We managed to exist with a negligible trading relationship with China up until Deng's 'liberalisation' - do you seriously think we can't do that again?

The thing with communists is that you'll never be able to appease them no matter how hard you try. You might be there waving the flag and rolling out the red carpet for them but it still won't be enough. You'll be labelled a thought criminal and put into a camp for the merest transgressions, things that we presently take for granted.

The most deadly ideology of the 20th century - don't ever forget that.
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
Don't Want to bite the Hand that feeds you after all, Our economy is in bed with them it's all about the money. Theres going to be only more as china surpasses the decaying hulk of the United States.
We managed to exist with a negligible trading relationship with China up until Deng's 'liberalisation' - do you seriously think we can't do that again?

The thing with communists is that you'll never be able to appease them no matter how hard you try. You might be there waving the flag and rolling out the red carpet for them but it still won't be enough. You'll be labelled a thought criminal and put into a camp for the merest transgressions, things that we presently take for granted.

The most deadly ideology of the 20th century - don't ever forget that.
don_dunstan
I don't think anyone is willing to try that. As a result of globalisation were more interconnected with there economy than we have been with anyone else. No politician is willing to do so, (unless your one) Wink. I'll say it again, theres going to be more and More Chinese influence on global politics and sucking up to them just as we have done to Britain and the United States prior. The United States will lose its golden seat. I'm waiting still for Xi to send in the Tanks and do a 1989 mark II.

Bit more of the 'red's under the bed attitude', we've discussed this at length before. People are indoctrinated, the same goes for us with our obsession with Liberal democracy.

Quick! They Had a famine due to poor timing and being a backwards agrarian society! And locked people in Jail for being against the government! You're starting to get very McCarthyist with this hysteria. perhaps now time for a 3rd red scare?

Also, I'm surprised you haven't replied to the other post in the economy thread.
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
I don't think anyone is willing to try that. As a result of globalisation were more interconnected with there economy than we have been with anyone else. No politician is willing to do so, (unless your one) Wink. I'll say it again, theres going to be more and More Chinese influence on global politics and sucking up to them just as we have done to Britain and the United States prior. The United States will lose its golden seat. I'm waiting still for Xi to send in the Tanks and do a 1989 mark II.
Dangersdan707
No totalitarian government has ever been in charge of the global hegemony. China can't build a hegemony based on selling bits of crap to the West while simultaneously stealing all their ideas, it just won't work. Trump has been working on alternative supply lines for nearly everything that they currently get from China - apparently Vietnam and Mexico have been booming as a result.

Globalisation works both ways - we're all interconnected but then again it's all a huge market that you're free to pick and choose from.
Bit more of the 'red's under the bed attitude', we've discussed this at length before. People are indoctrinated, the same goes for us with our obsession with Liberal democracy. Quick! They Had a famine due to poor timing and being a backwards agrarian society! And locked people in Jail for being against the government! You're starting to get very McCarthyist with this hysteria. perhaps now time for a 3rd red scare? Also, I'm surprised you haven't replied to the other post in the economy thread.
Dangersdan707
It's got nothing to do with McCarthyism or anything else like that and everything to do with the fact that we need to keep our alliance with a nation without whom we probably wouldn't exist.

The Great Leap Forward famine wasn't an accident, it was a deliberate act by Mao to head off any counter-revolutionary activity in the south - there's plenty of verification of that fact. He sent food to Nikita Khrushchev while the peasantry starved to death and kept the whole thing secret. The war against the Chinese people is a fact of history, you must be either a CCP troll or truly ignorant to not recognise the scale or determination of the Maoists to keep holding onto power at the expense of millions of Chinese lives. Nothing that the British or Americans have done even comes close.

Lesser of two evils thing, I'll take the liberal democratic tradition over the murderous communists every single time.
  Groundrelay Chief Commissioner

Location: Surrounded by Trolls!
Lesser of two evils thing, I'll take the liberal democratic tradition over the murderous communists every single time.
don_dunstan
Well living in this country at this time in history you can. It wasn't always as 'kum ba yah' as you believe.

We never had a liberal democracy until quite recently and power wasn't simply given up unilaterally. Russia wasn't even close when Lenin turned up, nor was China when Mao started his revolution. Joseph Noballs easily convinced enough people like you to give up democracy in a heart beat.

You never needed democracy to get rich. Plenty of industrialists did quite well under the Nazis. Communism isn't the issue, totalitarianism is. It's about hanging onto power, which is as old as human history. No more communism in Russia now and see how its become a beacon for democracy.
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
Well living in this country at this time in history you can. It wasn't always as 'kum ba yah' as you believe.

We never had a liberal democracy until quite recently and power wasn't simply given up unilaterally. Russia wasn't even close when Lenin turned up, nor was China when Mao started his revolution. Joseph Noballs easily convinced enough people like you to give up democracy in a heart beat.
Groundrelay
Rubbish - the Nazis stole the election and then imprisoned, tortured and killed any opponents after that. I knew a bloke many years ago who grew up as a young child in Nazi Germany and he said one of his young school friends accidentally denounced his parents to their teacher - next thing the whole family disappeared. Imagine living in that kind of environment - what could you possibly do apart from flee?

Ordinary Germans didn't sleepwalk into that, they were taken over more or less by a coup where the hapless Hindenburg allowed Hitler to form government believing there was some kind of crisis or danger of communist takeover - and once the citizenry realised what had happened they were powerless to do anything about it for fear of being arrested and imprisoned themselves. To make doubly-sure Hitler burned down the Reichstag and blamed it on the communists or trade unionists.

We've always been blessed in this country with a relatively free press and a strong judicial system separated from the executive; we're extremely lucky in that regard. I for one don't take that for granted.
You never needed democracy to get rich. Plenty of industrialists did quite well under the Nazis. Communism isn't the issue, totalitarianism is. It's about hanging onto power, which is as old as human history. No more communism in Russia now and see how its become a beacon for democracy.
Groundrelay
Fascism/communism/totalitarianism - it's all the same thing. Everyone thinks that they'd be the kind of benevolent communist dictator that wouldn't kill millions but you can never actually get into that job unless you do that kind of thing. I think Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot et al pretty much prove that point.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Last Night at the Airport

  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
No totalitarian government has ever been in charge of the global hegemony. China can't build a hegemony based on selling bits of crap to the West while simultaneously stealing all their ideas, it just won't work. Trump has been working on alternative supply lines for nearly everything that they currently get from China - apparently Vietnam and Mexico have been booming as a result. Globalisation works both ways - we're all interconnected but then again it's all a huge market that you're free to pick and choose from.
Don dunstan
I'd say the British and Spanish were fairly totalitarian when they had their empires. The British Colonised India, shut down what little industry they had and forbid it from industrialising till the 1920s just a for a Guaranteed export market. They for one Forbid India from producing fabrics so the British would have a monopoly. The British and Spanish did so and I can't see how China can't do the same.

The Second half I'd agree with, but our politicians are as I've said are in bed with them and I doubt anything will change on that front. (don for parliament?)
It's got nothing to do with McCarthyism or anything else like that and everything to do with the fact that we need to keep our alliance with a nation without whom we probably wouldn't exist.

The Great Leap Forward famine wasn't an accident, it was a deliberate act by Mao to head off any counter-revolutionary activity in the south - there's plenty of verification of that fact. He sent food to Nikita Khrushchev while the peasantry starved to death and kept the whole thing secret. The war against the Chinese people is a fact of history, you must be either a CCP troll or truly ignorant to not recognise the scale or determination of the Maoists to keep holding onto power at the expense of millions of Chinese lives. Nothing that the British or Americans have done even comes close.

Lesser of two evils thing, I'll take the liberal democratic tradition over the murderous communists every single time
Don dunstan

Because the all Dominos were going to fall? I Think not. I'd like some proof to back up that point. You're reinforcing my point about the 'reds under the bed' so far.
From what I've read, The Communes all claimed to the party they got higher yields than they actually did and thus the party took a bigger cut. Along with the hysteria of the backyard Steel production less people growing. The CCP didn't actually know about it till months after the had collected their share of the harvest and thus the mass starvation began.

I've spoken out against the CCP many times on the site such as for Their treatment of Tibet and East Turkistan (I can't be bothered writing the current Chinese name for it) and there Neo colonialism in Africa , calling me a member of the 50 cent army is a bit harsh Don. I you want proof I'm Australian, just ask a few members of this broad who I've ran into. (still why do you use that name Don Dunstan of all people its like me going by Denis Napthine?). If I were a CCP Troll I would be denying it happened as the CCP still does to this day as you mentioned.

You still haven't answered my question on your perspective on the 100 flowers campaign.

and I've debunked that last point in the thread of ours many times before.  
For now, ill take our liberal democracy but the point remains, those who are born into a society are more likely to accept it than reject it.
Fascism/communism/totalitarianism - it's all the same thing. Everyone thinks that they'd be the kind of benevolent communist dictator that wouldn't kill millions but you can never actually get into that job unless you do that kind of thing. I think Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot et al pretty much prove that point.
Don Dunstan
If your looking for horseshoe theory I suggest looking up National Bolshevism or Strasserism as they'd be the closest your'd get. Does the British empire and the American puppets count as Totalitarian in your books? Purposeful Ethnic Cleansing of Pol pot Vs unintentional famines. If you wanted to paint Mao in bad light you could at least mention the Mass trials/killings of land lords that the masses so feverishly backed.
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
I'd say the British and Spanish were fairly totalitarian when they had their empires. The British Colonised India, shut down what little industry they had and forbid it from industrialising till the 1920s just a for a Guaranteed export market. They for one Forbid India from producing fabrics so the British would have a monopoly. The British and Spanish did so and I can't see how China can't do the same.

The Second half I'd agree with, but our politicians are as I've said are in bed with them and I doubt anything will change on that front. (don for parliament?)
Dangersdan707
China has left its run too late to have a colonial empire - there's no equivalency here. They're trying to do that using financial means instead - such as they've done with Sri Lanka and various African nations but ultimately I don't think it'll work.
Because the all Dominos were going to fall? I Think not. I'd like some proof to back up that point. You're reinforcing my point about the 'reds under the bed' so far. From what I've read, The Communes all claimed to the party they got higher yields than they actually did and thus the party took a bigger cut. Along with the hysteria of the backyard Steel production less people growing. The CCP didn't actually know about it till months after the had collected their share of the harvest and thus the mass starvation began. I've spoken out against the CCP many times on the site such as for Their treatment of Tibet and East Turkistan (I can't be bothered writing the current Chinese name for it) and there Neo colonialism in Africa , calling me a member of the 50 cent army is a bit harsh Don. I you want proof I'm Australian, just ask a few members of this broad who I've ran into. (still why do you use that name Don Dunstan of all people its like me going by Denis Napthine?). If I were a CCP Troll I would be denying it happened as the CCP still does to this day as you mentioned. You still haven't answered my question on your perspective on the 100 flowers campaign. and I've debunked that last point in the thread of ours many times before. For now, ill take our liberal democracy but the point remains, those who are born into a society are more likely to accept it than reject it.
Dangersdan707
This is a very long and rather rambling post and I'm not sure how to answer it - again, there's plenty of evidence that Mao's starvation campaign was deliberate and if you don't believe me then do your own research, I don't want to argue the point any longer, I've said all I want to about the murderous and completely incompetent Great Leap Forward.

If you really don't believe that communism is brutal and deadly then by all means go and live in China - or better still go for the 'pure' version in North Korea. By all accounts a socialist worker's paradise.

Why are you interested in my opinion on an earlier Mao pogrom? Hundred flowers was a matter of "put your hand up if you think we need reform... now those with their hands up please report to the police". A taste of things to come.
If your looking for horseshoe theory I suggest looking up National Bolshevism or Strasserism as they'd be the closest your'd get. Does the British empire and the American puppets count as Totalitarian in your books? Purposeful Ethnic Cleansing of Pol pot Vs unintentional famines. If you wanted to paint Mao in bad light you could at least mention the Mass trials/killings of land lords that the masses so feverishly backed.
Dangersdan707
Again, I've said my piece, I don't want to live in a communist society and I don't want vestiges of it coming here. Our system is far from perfect but Maoism and Stalinism are far worse.
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
China has left its run too late to have a colonial empire - there's no equivalency here. They're trying to do that using financial means instead - such as they've done with Sri Lanka and various African nations but ultimately I don't think it'll work.
Don dunstan
We'll see, we both can't predict the future. One cannot deny that their influence is spreading just, gaining more governments under their thumb. Seems to be working so far and it worked for the USA and USSR in the Cold War.

This is a very long and rather rambling post and I'm not sure how to answer it - again, there's plenty of evidence that Mao's starvation campaign was deliberate and if you don't believe me then do your own research, I don't want to argue the point any longer, I've said all I want to about the murderous and completely incompetent Great Leap Forward. If you really don't believe that communism is brutal and deadly then by all means go and live in China - or better still go for the 'pure' version in North Korea. By all accounts a socialist worker's paradise.
Don dunstan
My apologies, There was a lot going on there Ill summarise
-I've Called out china before, I don't know if your winding me up or not so don't accuse me of being a troll, funnest thing all day to happen.
-I've called them out on this site before
this below confuses me
-The great leap backwards was caused by a mix of overtaxing communes, natural disasters and the stupid idea of producing steel in your backyard.
'everything to do with the fact that we need to keep our alliance with a nation without whom we probably wouldn't exist.'

The Hermit kingdom is a fascinating place, one of the few things I like trump for doing is attempting to sort out the mess on the Korean peninsula and be diplomatic unlike Obama to Kim.  
Bit black and white the bit calling The Hermit kingdom a 'paradise', I've told you what examples of it I'm fine with such as in Cuba and Chiapas  , Mexico.

Why are you interested in my opinion on an earlier Mao pogrom? Hundred flowers was a matter of "put your hand up if you think we need reform... now those with their hands up please report to the police". A taste of things to come.
Don Dunstan
Largely cause you told me to look it and I want to know how you interpret it. from what I've read such as Li Zhisui's excellent The private life of chairman Mao, A Fairly honest account of his time with the chairman as he was Maos physician (as he was sent to the country for reeducation and later fled to the US), I've deduced it was done not expecting the widespread backlash.

Ive also interpreted it as response to attempt to avoid another Hungarian style uprising and the Claim by the CCP of it being a trap along is rubbish. The Entire thing exploded in their face leading to a crackdown and I think you're following the narrative the CCP pushes after all the Party seemingly can never make a mistake.
Essentially I think if you believe it was trap, you're assisting in the CCP's rewriting of history.
Also again, pogrom refers to being anti Semitic.

Don as you mention Kampuchea, a casual reminder that the Vietnamese ousted the Rouge, who were later backed by the US and renounced Communism.

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