Climate Change Confusion

 
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
Time for me to say: "I told you so".
Whilst I don't think I have mentioned it on here before, I've been talking about this for some time now.

Green energy? I don't think so.
Graham4405
The biggest scam out - follow the money. It's Turnbull and the Holmes-a-Court family making big money out of this "transition to renewables". Meanwhile we're allowing heavy metals to be dumped into landfill poisoning the water table.

Saving the planet? More like poisoning the water table.

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  michaelgm Chief Commissioner

Don, agree. There should be a stand alone levy applied the purchase, ie no subsidy attached, to dispose/recycle of life expired PV panels.
And this must be rigorously enforced. No Cowboys tipping them anywhere as what occurs with asbestos.
Whether your are in support or not of panels, fact is they're here. And full life cycle needs to be addressed.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Life-expired solar panels are proving to be an environmental nightmare to dispose of; Sciencing:

The toxic chemicals in solar panels include cadmium telluride, copper indium selenide, cadmium gallium (di)selenide, copper indium gallium (di)selenide, hexafluoroethane, lead, and polyvinyl fluoride. Additionally, silicon tetrachloride, a byproduct of producing crystalline silicon, is highly toxic.

Yet people are still disposing of them in landfill when they reach the end of their useful lives. This practice urgently needs to be banned as it will leach deadly heavy metals into the water-table; solar panels need to be recycled to recover these metals even though the process will be very expensive.
Time for me to say: "I told you so".
Whilst I don't think I have mentioned it on here before, I've been talking about this for some time now.

Green energy? I don't think so.
Graham4405

Told who so?

Few with common sense in the industry say RE is 100% clean, its just not CO2 intensive which the issue trying to be addressed (if thats your agenda). Coal also has a large foot print, solar as we know uses mostly existing infrastructure and realestate or where its a solar farm often using non farmable land.

Are any of these chemical's being dumped into the environment?

As for the "used" solar panels, they have a life of 25+ years for the good ones, once end of life is their chemical composition likely to be a risk to the environment, are you aware of their relatively stability? Water is also toxic and kills 100,000's every year.

Every energy source has its strengths and weaknesses.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
Don, agree. There should be a stand alone levy applied the purchase, ie no subsidy attached, to dispose/recycle of life expired PV panels.
And this must be rigorously enforced. No Cowboys tipping them anywhere as what occurs with asbestos.
Whether your are in support or not of panels, fact is they're here. And full life cycle needs to be addressed.
michaelgm
There's a very interesting article in Forbes Magazine about the myriad of problems that solar panels are causing in the environment - one of the biggest problems is the lead and cadmium compounds embedded in the glass. I personally would not drink rainwater from a roof with solar panels on it - and there's a Chinese scientist would alleges that leaching into roof-filled tanks is a distinct possibly especially when the panels get damaged.

As the article discusses, solar farms that have been hit by storms can be contaminated by fragments of that glass on the ground and the only solution is to send in teams of thousands to meticulously recover the fragments by hand... it takes a very long time.

I don't think there's anything wrong with being sceptical about these things; the truth about asbestos was at first dismissed as a hoax when it first came out. Then as it turns out its one of the most toxic substances on the planet, especially when particles are inhaled; it took loads of empirical evidence but the truth did come out. I feel the same way about green energy sources, the promoters need to be held to account in case it all turns out to be yet another cancer-causing industrial product.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Don, agree. There should be a stand alone levy applied the purchase, ie no subsidy attached, to dispose/recycle of life expired PV panels.
And this must be rigorously enforced. No Cowboys tipping them anywhere as what occurs with asbestos.
Whether your are in support or not of panels, fact is they're here. And full life cycle needs to be addressed.
michaelgm
I agree as well. We have increasingly tight restrictions on waste and "return to Greenspace" for existing projects including the existing coal power stations, RE needs to start off from the right foot and basically provide a full life-cycle package for the next generation of power generation.

The used batteries from EV's at end of life either natural or crashed out are in general no longer destined for landfill, if they ever were so I'm sure PV will find the same. But honestly unless you need the roof space to replace with new, why bother removing. Sure their efficiency has declined, just add new ones, don't go for replacement. Even new ones now after 25 years are not throw aways, just loosing around 1% YOY.
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
PV panels have a life span of 25+ years? Maybe, but what’s the lifespan of the inverter? Let’s not forget the nasties lurking in there either...

The principle method of ‘recycling’ most electronics is to incinerate at high temperature, pour off the metal fractions and all the other ‘volatiles’ go up the smoke stack - that’s not recycling, it’s vandalism.
  apw5910 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Location: Location.
Wish people would pay more attention to Energy Returned on Energy Invested: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_returned_on_energy_invested

Which basically says it takes a few years for solar or wind systems to just get to breakeven for their fairly modest power outputs (and only a couple of months for coal/nuclear). So a new solar panel will now finally produce more power over it's 25 year lifetime than went into making it, but not really by all that much. Many of the older panels in use wont achieve their breakeven point.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
PV panels have a life span of 25+ years? Maybe, but what’s the lifespan of the inverter? Let’s not forget the nasties lurking in there either...

The principle method of ‘recycling’ most electronics is to incinerate at high temperature, pour off the metal fractions and all the other ‘volatiles’ go up the smoke stack - that’s not recycling, it’s vandalism.
Aaron
I've read multiple articles about this; the suggestion is that very high quality mono-crystalline ones will indeed last about 20-25 years. But these panels aren't the majority; they're the top-of-the-line ones and they are very expensive - they're not the ones that you see typically advertised. Meanwhile around 40% are of the much lower quality and will need to be replaced after 5-10 years because their efficiency falls rapidly and they typically suffer from problems like water ingress meaning they're stuffed.

And contrary to belief there's no proper or mandated method of disposing of them. Take this quote from an ABC article earlier this year:

On the day 7.30 visited Mr Leighton's property, Johann Fleury's company Thirroul Solar was removing the panels and replacing them.

"These can't be fixed. There's no way of reversing the issue that they have with them," Mr Fleury said.

"So they are basically just dead panels."

It is not a job he likes doing.

The panels he was taking down will most likely end up at the tip, as there was nowhere nearby to recycle them.

Mr Fleury was just one of dozens of solar installers 7.30 spoke to who said poor-quality rooftop solar was all too common.

"A large amount of those earlier panels, since I'd say 2008 all the way till 2014, a lot of those panels have come back down off roofs," he said.

So the lead and cadmium will just end up in the water table somewhere?
  michaelgm Chief Commissioner

It appears dead panels are removed from roof, Thrown into dumpster, tipped into landfill, (possibly moved a distance to the cheapest) run over with CAT dozers, then covered with whatever other contaminated crap is handy. Any relative stability or structural integrity is long gone.

If the present principle method of recycling is vandalism, we need to do far better.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE

So the lead and cadmium will just end up in the water table somewhere?
don_dunstan
All land fills have large penalties for disposal of toxic waste that is at risk of harming the environment, I'd be more concerned about your and my wife's used make up and shampoo bottles which are dumped in far greater numbers. The chemicals used to make PV panels are generally inert chemically and very stable.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Wish people would pay more attention to Energy Returned on Energy Invested: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_returned_on_energy_invested

Which basically says it takes a few years for solar or wind systems to just get to breakeven for their fairly modest power outputs (and only a couple of months for coal/nuclear). So a new solar panel will now finally produce more power over it's 25 year lifetime than went into making it, but not really by all that much. Many of the older panels in use wont achieve their breakeven point.
apw5910
A typical 300W decent solar panel will make nearly 20 MW in its life, it doesn't take 20 MW to make it or anywhere near that amount. The aluminium framing is likely the highest energy demand and that's 14 MW / 1000 kg, there is barely 5kg if that aluminium in the frame.

A 5MW wind turbine, running 33% name plate with 25 year life = 361,000 MW. I dare say it pays for its own energy within the first year if no sooner.

FB is full of BS claims on energy required to make wind and solar. But how many 10,000's tonnes of steel and concrete in a coal power stations + 1000's tonnes of aluminium and copper. Every thought on how much diesel it takes to run a coal mine and keep a coal power station in operation?

BAsically all a mute point unless you have the actual detailed data and even then so what? The energy used may not equal the right type of energy needed to run your house?
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
PV panels have a life span of 25+ years? Maybe, but what’s the lifespan of the inverter? Let’s not forget the nasties lurking in there either...

The principle method of ‘recycling’ most electronics is to incinerate at high temperature, pour off the metal fractions and all the other ‘volatiles’ go up the smoke stack - that’s not recycling, it’s vandalism.
Aaron
We worry about the inverter but most people would buy a new TV and dump the other one without a 2nd thought.

Typical good inverter should go 10-12 years.
  michaelgm Chief Commissioner

Shane, interesting you mentioned diesel AND a coal plant. Often overlooked.
Some years back, I spoke to a bloke driving a dozer at Mt piper NSW, movimg/spreading ash, forget the exact figures but at that time, the plant had burned around 24 million tonne of coal and produced approx 4 million tonne of ash. He was working 3/12 shifts. Likely on a 24/7 rotation.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Shane, interesting you mentioned diesel AND a coal plant. Often overlooked.
Some years back, I spoke to a bloke driving a dozer at Mt piper NSW, movimg/spreading ash, forget the exact figures but at that time, the plant had burned around 24 million tonne of coal and produced approx 4 million tonne of ash. He was working 3/12 shifts. Likely on a 24/7 rotation.
michaelgm
Hi
If I recall Gladstone Power station burns around 6mtpa of good low ash black coal. Every tonne plus over burdon must be mined (diesel) and transported (diesel and electric) +200km to get there.

I'm not against coal, but acknowledge it will take a reducing role in Australia's electricity generation as time moves forward although too many have their head in the sand or poorly educated to understand how slow this will need to be.  

Everything that has been done to date reducing coal (less than 10% Nation wide over 10 years) has been easy, closing old inefficient power stations, not running at full capacity replaced with a bit of this and that and high power prices, better uterlising the newer power stations, removing govt from running power stations for political reasons (jobs) PLUS riding the back of the reduction of nearly 800MW of demand by just 2 former customers.

Closure of Liddel will also be relatively basic but expensive, SNOW Y 2.0, after Liddel its starts getting harder, alot harder with each station closing and why I think we would have been better off following the Dutch and building a modern clean coal 2000 - 2500 MW power station to replace the aging and brown coal rubbish in the south and enjoyed at 20 - 25% CO2 / MW reduction in emissions and still sustained affordable power prices.
  DirtyBallast Chief Commissioner

Location: I was here first. You're only visiting.
PV panels have a life span of 25+ years? Maybe, but what’s the lifespan of the inverter? Let’s not forget the nasties lurking in there either...

The principle method of ‘recycling’ most electronics is to incinerate at high temperature, pour off the metal fractions and all the other ‘volatiles’ go up the smoke stack - that’s not recycling, it’s vandalism.
I've read multiple articles about this; the suggestion is that very high quality mono-crystalline ones will indeed last about 20-25 years. But these panels aren't the majority; they're the top-of-the-line ones and they are very expensive - they're not the ones that you see typically advertised. Meanwhile around 40% are of the much lower quality and will need to be replaced after 5-10 years because their efficiency falls rapidly and they typically suffer from problems like water ingress meaning they're stuffed.

And contrary to belief there's no proper or mandated method of disposing of them. Take this quote from an ABC article earlier this year:

On the day 7.30 visited Mr Leighton's property, Johann Fleury's company Thirroul Solar was removing the panels and replacing them.

"These can't be fixed. There's no way of reversing the issue that they have with them," Mr Fleury said.

"So they are basically just dead panels."

It is not a job he likes doing.

The panels he was taking down will most likely end up at the tip, as there was nowhere nearby to recycle them.

Mr Fleury was just one of dozens of solar installers 7.30 spoke to who said poor-quality rooftop solar was all too common.

"A large amount of those earlier panels, since I'd say 2008 all the way till 2014, a lot of those panels have come back down off roofs," he said.

So the lead and cadmium will just end up in the water table somewhere?
don_dunstan
Only a simpleton would believe that the typical panel, which normally comes with an 80% efficiency guarantee at 25 years, thinks that they will actually be useless after 25 years and need to be disposed of.

"A large amount of those earlier panels, since I'd say 2008 all the way till 2014, a lot of those panels have come back down off roofs," he said.


What exactly is a large amount? For him, it could be 100 panels. Where's the evidence?
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
PV panels have a life span of 25+ years? Maybe, but what’s the lifespan of the inverter? Let’s not forget the nasties lurking in there either...

The principle method of ‘recycling’ most electronics is to incinerate at high temperature, pour off the metal fractions and all the other ‘volatiles’ go up the smoke stack - that’s not recycling, it’s vandalism.
I've read multiple articles about this; the suggestion is that very high quality mono-crystalline ones will indeed last about 20-25 years. But these panels aren't the majority; they're the top-of-the-line ones and they are very expensive - they're not the ones that you see typically advertised. Meanwhile around 40% are of the much lower quality and will need to be replaced after 5-10 years because their efficiency falls rapidly and they typically suffer from problems like water ingress meaning they're stuffed.

And contrary to belief there's no proper or mandated method of disposing of them. Take this quote from an ABC article earlier this year:

On the day 7.30 visited Mr Leighton's property, Johann Fleury's company Thirroul Solar was removing the panels and replacing them.

"These can't be fixed. There's no way of reversing the issue that they have with them," Mr Fleury said.

"So they are basically just dead panels."

It is not a job he likes doing.

The panels he was taking down will most likely end up at the tip, as there was nowhere nearby to recycle them.

Mr Fleury was just one of dozens of solar installers 7.30 spoke to who said poor-quality rooftop solar was all too common.

"A large amount of those earlier panels, since I'd say 2008 all the way till 2014, a lot of those panels have come back down off roofs," he said.

So the lead and cadmium will just end up in the water table somewhere?
Only a simpleton would believe that the typical panel, which normally comes with an 80% efficiency guarantee at 25 years, thinks that they will actually be useless after 25 years and need to be disposed of.

"A large amount of those earlier panels, since I'd say 2008 all the way till 2014, a lot of those panels have come back down off roofs," he said.


What exactly is a large amount? For him, it could be 100 panels. Where's the evidence?
DirtyBallast
Yes, I tend to agree.

While the cheap panels have known issues and buyer beware and applies to everything from TV's to shoes so I don't know why we are singling out PV's, in general most will last beyond the buyers lifespan albeit with a reduced but not insignificant output. As I said before, if the out put dropped off after 20 years to say 70% or even 50%, would you replace or just put a few new ones along side. Assuming roof space isn't an issue I know what I'd be doing and nothing would be entering the bin.

The ABC article is hyped up BS.

On the side, I actually own a 40W solar panel I bought in 1999 (Dick Smith Electronics), its the size of 100W panels of today and cost more than 100W panels today. In 1999 it cost me $400, so say $500 or so today. It has sat on a roof of my shed for a few years at Agnes Waters (held on by the cord only), about half its life out of the sun, used alot for camping, but for last 9 years it collects the evening sun in Tamborine Village and used by myself and father in law to keep the charge up to my boat battery and his Ride on.  If I remember I'll do a short circuit load test when back in March next year.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
I'm very confused about the climate.

  wobert Chief Commissioner

Location: Half way between Propodolla and Kinimakatka
Well wander up here Bevans old chap  https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/nov/08/dozens-of-bushfires-burn-out-of-control-in-nsw-and-queensland-as-temperatures-soar
I'm sure your confusion will disappear quick smart
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
Yes, I tend to agree.

While the cheap panels have known issues and buyer beware and applies to everything from TV's to shoes so I don't know why we are singling out PV's, in general most will last beyond the buyers lifespan albeit with a reduced but not insignificant output. As I said before, if the out put dropped off after 20 years to say 70% or even 50%, would you replace or just put a few new ones along side. Assuming roof space isn't an issue I know what I'd be doing and nothing would be entering the bin.
RTT_Rules
Do you have a shred of evidence to support what you've just said? "Most will last beyond the buyers lifespan"... sources?
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
PV panels have a life span of 25+ years? Maybe, but what’s the lifespan of the inverter? Let’s not forget the nasties lurking in there either...

The principle method of ‘recycling’ most electronics is to incinerate at high temperature, pour off the metal fractions and all the other ‘volatiles’ go up the smoke stack - that’s not recycling, it’s vandalism.
We worry about the inverter but most people would buy a new TV and dump the other one without a 2nd thought.

Typical good inverter should go 10-12 years.
RTT_Rules
There is huge difference between a TV panel and a PV panel and/or inverter... No TV manufacturer in history has tried to hoodwink a single person into buying a TV to make CO2 free electrons.
  Groundrelay Chief Commissioner

Location: Surrounded by Trolls!
There needs to be a levy on them to ensure their safe and correct disposal. Or are you going to go all Greta Thurnberg weepy on us and say that it's an attack on the useless green energy system?
don_dunstan
So it's a waste disposal issue as I said Razz Again no different to all the other stuff we make that isn't effectively recycled. Not optimal but it can be managed just like all the other crap we choose not too.

Your politics requires you bag renewables, that's quite obvious. It's not as if those bankrolling climate change denial have ever given a smeg about the environment. On the contrary, they consistently thwart and undermine measures to control environmental and health risks in pursuit of profit.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
There needs to be a levy on them to ensure their safe and correct disposal. Or are you going to go all Greta Thurnberg weepy on us and say that it's an attack on the useless green energy system?
So it's a waste disposal issue as I said Razz Again no different to all the other stuff we make that isn't effectively recycled. Not optimal but it can be managed just like all the other crap we choose not too.

Your politics requires you bag renewables, that's quite obvious. It's not as if those bankrolling climate change denial have ever given a smeg about the environment. On the contrary, they consistently thwart and undermine measures to control environmental and health risks in pursuit of profit.
Groundrelay
You could say exactly the same thing about the people pushing climate change 'solutions', they're only in it for a quid, they don't really give a damn if the waste from solar panels pollutes the water-table.

That's a future generation's problem isn't it.
  allan Chief Commissioner

That's a future generation's problem isn't it.
don_dunstan
I guess that it depends on how old you are...
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
That's a future generation's problem isn't it.
I guess that it depends on how old you are...
allan
If your not going to live through it then why worry?
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
Well people like Greta Thursburg have been promising me the end of humanity for pretty much my entire life and I'm always disappointed to find that they're just full of wind like the last doomsayer.

Trust me, 'catastrophic man-made climate change' is just a hoax designed to enrich the promoters like every other doomsday scam.

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