Climate Change Confusion

 
  allan Chief Commissioner

Climate change is so far down the theory level that some of the ideas would break science's few laws.  
Donald
Which ideas break which laws?

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  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Gravitation does has a ‘law’ attached to it, okay, it’s not ‘perfect’ in the quantum world (a world I actually have tertiary qualification in), but then neither is the first (and hence second) law from classical, Newtonian mechanics.

Pretty much ‘the’ reason we can’t make ‘artificial gravity’ - which incidentally, we can, and I presume the person mentioning it means something more like ‘natural’ gravity, being that without aid of acceleration is simply because we don’t have enough ... mass, at our general disposal.

That gravitation in the quantum sense doesn’t align with expectation I think is a flaw of the quantum mechanics field, not a flaw in the Newtonian field. There’s obviously other things at play in the quantum world that we are yet to discover - it’s only be about 80-90 years of thought going into it.

Likewise, that gravitation refuses to play ball neatly tying into ‘the theory of everything’ is I think due to the misunderstandings of (the certainly great, but I think still overrated) Stephen Hawking, whom I most certainly believe is missing some required information (the Higgs Twins were 100 million billion times smaller in mass than they should have been) to make ‘it work’.


The only scientific laws I can see ‘climate changers’ infringing are those of thermodynamics, which I think certainly cannot be breached, that said, I am pretty sure no climate predictions (either way) go close to fouling them.
  Donald Chief Commissioner

Location: Donald. Duck country.
I was considering the idea of all the heat from the planet warming so quickly was hiding at the bottom of the oceans.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Gravitation does has a ‘law’ attached to it, okay, it’s not ‘perfect’ in the quantum world (a world I actually have tertiary qualification in), but then neither is the first (and hence second) law from classical, Newtonian mechanics.

Pretty much ‘the’ reason we can’t make ‘artificial gravity’ - which incidentally, we can, and I presume the person mentioning it means something more like ‘natural’ gravity, being that without aid of acceleration is simply because we don’t have enough ... mass, at our general disposal.

That gravitation in the quantum sense doesn’t align with expectation I think is a flaw of the quantum mechanics field, not a flaw in the Newtonian field. There’s obviously other things at play in the quantum world that we are yet to discover - it’s only be about 80-90 years of thought going into it.

Likewise, that gravitation refuses to play ball neatly tying into ‘the theory of everything’ is I think due to the misunderstandings of (the certainly great, but I think still overrated) Stephen Hawking, whom I most certainly believe is missing some required information (the Higgs Twins were 100 million billion times smaller in mass than they should have been) to make ‘it work’.


The only scientific laws I can see ‘climate changers’ infringing are those of thermodynamics, which I think certainly cannot be breached, that said, I am pretty sure no climate predictions (either way) go close to fouling them.
Aaron
Hi
My point was, we don't know how gravity is generated apart from "well if I get a trillion tonnes of crap and put it next to each other it allows me to walk on it" and yes generate it artificially using acceleration. Whats the mechanism, energy etc???
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
Ex-Senator Bob Brown unleashes on the people of northern Queensland in an upcoming documentary about his 'convoy' prior to the May election last year - Fairfax;

Bob Brown is uncharacteristically scathing in his description of the crowd that greeted his Stop Adani convoy to north Queensland last year.

“Cranky, nasty, inhospitable,” he calls them in the documentary Convoy, which screens at the Transitions Film Festival on Friday. The peaceful convoy was, he adds, “faced with this unruly mob fuelled up by extreme-right activist politicians and publicans letting the grog flow”...

...“If only we could determine who is in government,” he says. “Bill Shorten sitting on the fence, backed by his ministers, lost the election. If Shorten had said, ‘I will stop the Adani mine’, he’d have lost the same number of seats in Queensland but would have won a whole stack more seats for his leadership in the rest of metropolitan Australia, and he’d be prime minister now.”

I wonder if it ever occurred to Bob Brown that Central Queensland has some of the highest unemployment in Australia and that taking a convoy of urban greenies right into coal heartland wasn't exactly the most intelligent thing he could have done? Nup - it's all the fault of those drunken, nasty Queenslanders.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Ex-Senator Bob Brown unleashes on the people of northern Queensland in an upcoming documentary about his 'convoy' prior to the May election last year - Fairfax;

Bob Brown is uncharacteristically scathing in his description of the crowd that greeted his Stop Adani convoy to north Queensland last year.

“Cranky, nasty, inhospitable,” he calls them in the documentary Convoy, which screens at the Transitions Film Festival on Friday. The peaceful convoy was, he adds, “faced with this unruly mob fuelled up by extreme-right activist politicians and publicans letting the grog flow”...

...“If only we could determine who is in government,” he says. “Bill Shorten sitting on the fence, backed by his ministers, lost the election. If Shorten had said, ‘I will stop the Adani mine’, he’d have lost the same number of seats in Queensland but would have won a whole stack more seats for his leadership in the rest of metropolitan Australia, and he’d be prime minister now.”

I wonder if it ever occurred to Bob Brown that Central Queensland has some of the highest unemployment in Australia and that taking a convoy of urban greenies right into coal heartland wasn't exactly the most intelligent thing he could have done? Nup - it's all the fault of those drunken, nasty Queenslanders.
don_dunstan
Ahh the inspirational comments of from the increasingly redundant Bob Brown.  I refuse to call him 'Dr' as I very much doubt anyone would seriously risk their health with this man.

Enjoy your tax payer funded retirement Bob and PO!
  Groundrelay Chief Commissioner

Location: Surrounded by Trolls!
'Scotty from marketing' trying to play all sides, acknowledging the impact of climate change on the landscape whilst attacking Labor for daring to set an emissions target for when he's 81 years old, then saying we'll met the targets anyway Razz
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
Electric car fans like RTT_Rules might be extremely disappointed to hear the head of Peugeot call electric cars unattractive to regular car buyers and only for "green addicts" - News.com.au;

Carlos Tavares, head of the PSA Group responsible for Peugeot, Citroen and DS, says electric vehicles still lack mainstream appeal.

Speaking to reporters from a number of outlets including Reuters following the cancelled Geneva motor show, Tavares said manufacturers must work on making electric cars affordable.

The former Renault leader said “demand collapses” when governments end subsidies for electric cars, which aren’t attractive enough to pragmatists.

Sales of electric vehicles in major markets such as China and the UK fell when governments turned the tap off generous subsides...

...BMW board member Klaus Frölich told reporters in June 2019 that the shift to electrification is overhyped, and that a government push for electric cars outstripped consumer demand.

“There are no customer requests for BEVs. None,” he told Forbes.com.

So the switch to electric cars is being driven solely by government regulation, not because consumers want them.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Electric car fans like RTT_Rules might be extremely disappointed to hear the head of Peugeot call electric cars unattractive to regular car buyers and only for "green addicts" - News.com.au;

Carlos Tavares, head of the PSA Group responsible for Peugeot, Citroen and DS, says electric vehicles still lack mainstream appeal.

Speaking to reporters from a number of outlets including Reuters following the cancelled Geneva motor show, Tavares said manufacturers must work on making electric cars affordable.

The former Renault leader said “demand collapses” when governments end subsidies for electric cars, which aren’t attractive enough to pragmatists.

Sales of electric vehicles in major markets such as China and the UK fell when governments turned the tap off generous subsides...

...BMW board member Klaus Frölich told reporters in June 2019 that the shift to electrification is overhyped, and that a government push for electric cars outstripped consumer demand.

“There are no customer requests for BEVs. None,” he told Forbes.com.

So the switch to electric cars is being driven solely by government regulation, not because consumers want them.
don_dunstan
Ok,
- how much stock does Tesla hold waiting for buyers?
- how much stock do many other EV manufacturers have waiting for buyers?
- how much stock does Peugeot or any of the other subsidiaries have waiting for buyers?

Yes, when the cost of the car goes up buyers reconsider their options. However there are plenty of market, actually most of them where EV's are not subsidised to any degree and yet they still sell. You will never find a post from me stating EV's should be subsidised, its a technology that needs to evolve on its own science and engineering. Subsidising cars, expensive ones at that is neither smart, rational nor sustainable and paying rich people to drive EV's is not the future.

Govt regulation has accelerated the move towards EV's but Tesla was the game changer and found market share purely on the basis that people want to own and drive an EV. EV's are simply a better car to drive they perform better, corner better, accelerate faster, more storage and easier to design as the EV "skateboard" is easier to adapt to different models than the ICE platform.  

The black marks against EV's are battery range, although some models now are matching their petrol cousins, charge time which is generally over focused on for most users and being reduced and cost, which will come down in time like all new technology and already has dropped in price dramatically in the last 10 years.

As for BMW, yeah the CEO was slagging EV's for some time, and even kept the EV models separately branded. They have since indicated that going forward all models will have EV option and will move away from separate branding. As have the other German car makers. All of which have $10B's of capital and 100 years of brand marketing wrapped up in their respective engine and gear box departments now simply replaced by a battery and an electric motor within 15 years. Yep, they have nothing to loose by making those comments.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
Telstra's switch to solar-powered services for rural and remote communities has backfired after several communities lost phone services after a week or so of constant cloud cover from the recent cyclones - ABC;

Telstra says the stations that provide landline and mobile phone coverage to some remote communities in Central Australia are not robust enough to withstand several days of cloud cover.

Outages mean ATMs can't be used and power cards can't be purchased — the pre-paid electricity system used in remote communities

The region has received significant rainfall recently thanks to ex-cyclone Esther, and as a result several communities have gone without phone coverage for more than 24 hours at a time.

"[The stations] are powered by solar power-charged batteries which charge during the day and last through the night," Telstra's Nic Danks said.

He said that in bad weather, however, the batteries do not charge and they can run empty, meaning that several days of cloud cover could result in no coverage.

Well that was a stupid idea; obviously like the Alice Springs solar power station they built it not anticipating long periods of cloudy weather. Solar has its uses but it can't be relied on to be the only energy source.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Telstra's switch to solar-powered services for rural and remote communities has backfired after several communities lost phone services after a week or so of constant cloud cover from the recent cyclones - ABC;

Telstra says the stations that provide landline and mobile phone coverage to some remote communities in Central Australia are not robust enough to withstand several days of cloud cover.

Outages mean ATMs can't be used and power cards can't be purchased — the pre-paid electricity system used in remote communities

The region has received significant rainfall recently thanks to ex-cyclone Esther, and as a result several communities have gone without phone coverage for more than 24 hours at a time.

"[The stations] are powered by solar power-charged batteries which charge during the day and last through the night," Telstra's Nic Danks said.

He said that in bad weather, however, the batteries do not charge and they can run empty, meaning that several days of cloud cover could result in no coverage.

Well that was a stupid idea; obviously like the Alice Springs solar power station they built it not anticipating long periods of cloudy weather. Solar has its uses but it can't be relied on to be the only energy source.
don_dunstan
doh!
  arctic Deputy Commissioner

Location: Zurich
I was considering the idea of all the heat from the planet warming so quickly was hiding at the bottom of the oceans.
Donald
I cant figure out which scientific law this breaks?
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
I was considering the idea of all the heat from the planet warming so quickly was hiding at the bottom of the oceans.
I cant figure out which scientific law this breaks?
arctic
"which of many"
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
Back to the green-scam. Seems none-other than Michael Moore has now done a documentary on how green energy sources are wreaking the planet faster than coal or oil ever could. From Forbes Magazine:

Over the last 10 years, everyone from celebrity influencers including Elon Musk, Arnold Schwarzenegger, and Al Gore, to major technology brands including Apple, have repeatedly claimed that renewables like solar panels and wind farms are less polluting than fossil fuels.
But a new documentary, “Planet of the Humans,” being released free to the public on YouTube today, the 50th Anniversary of Earth Day, reveals that industrial wind farms, solar farms, biomass, and biofuels are wrecking natural environments.
“I assumed solar panels would last forever,” Moore told Reuters. “I didn’t know what went into the making of them.”

He does a very comprehensive evaluation of the 'green' industry including the fact that the ultimate hypocrite Al Gore made $100,000,000 from fossil fuels in 2013. Interesting that the film explores the fallacy of "carbon neutral" and the extremely polluting nature of both industrial wind farms and the production of solar panels - perhaps people will start to wake up about what a load of rubbish the carbon neutral thing is.
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
Back to the green-scam. Seems none-other than Michael Moore has now done a documentary on how green energy sources are wreaking the planet faster than coal or oil ever could. From Forbes Magazine:

Over the last 10 years, everyone from celebrity influencers including Elon Musk, Arnold Schwarzenegger, and Al Gore, to major technology brands including Apple, have repeatedly claimed that renewables like solar panels and wind farms are less polluting than fossil fuels.
But a new documentary, “Planet of the Humans,” being released free to the public on YouTube today, the 50th Anniversary of Earth Day, reveals that industrial wind farms, solar farms, biomass, and biofuels are wrecking natural environments.
“I assumed solar panels would last forever,” Moore told Reuters. “I didn’t know what went into the making of them.”

He does a very comprehensive evaluation of the 'green' industry including the fact that the ultimate hypocrite Al Gore made $100,000,000 from fossil fuels in 2013. Interesting that the film explores the fallacy of "carbon neutral" and the extremely polluting nature of both industrial wind farms and the production of solar panels - perhaps people will start to wake up about what a load of rubbish the carbon neutral thing is.

I'm surprised honestly that you watched a film by Moore, who you'd be bashing in the trump thread for attacking El Donaldo. Bit too much of 'doomsday cult' I'd of thought for your liking. It's largely just a critique of biomass and biofuels,and how complacent  environmental groups have become in retaining a fossil fuel dependant economy along with hopping in bed with big business. I've personally been sceptical about Using Biomass on a large scale for quiet some time, do we happen to have any here? I've never heard of any here. As the film said best 'a merger of environmentalism and capitalism', it all predictably being a Facade for mega corporations to look good.

Still though, I was aware of all that, The rare earth and the carbon intensive manufacturing process but I'm afraid I'm in the minority on that matter as most greenies still cling to solar and wind as the silver bullet to the crisis, ignoring what I view as the best way out, atomic energy.

Thank-you For posting this Don, it'll wake a fair few up who cling to the idea of 'solar and wind'.
Also, did you spot the SY in the montage? (Chinese steamer)
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Biomass; how do we solve our over reliance on carbon fuels? Burn some different smeg! Greenies that support or even condone biomass are a joke.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
I'm surprised honestly that you watched a film by Moore, who you'd be bashing in the trump thread for attacking El Donaldo. Bit too much of 'doomsday cult' I'd of thought for your liking.
Dangersdan707
"DOOMSDAY CULT" - c'mon dude, what on earth is being a bit skeptical about the deadly nature of carbon dioxide compared to the hysteria being spouted by the climate change people until only recently? They're the original doomsday sooth-sayers - and like all sooth-sayers they've been wrong for decades.
It's largely just a critique of biomass and biofuels,and how complacent  environmental groups have become in retaining a fossil fuel dependant economy along with hopping in bed with big business. I've personally been sceptical about Using Biomass on a large scale for quiet some time, do we happen to have any here? I've never heard of any here. As the film said best 'a merger of environmentalism and capitalism', it all predictably being a Facade for mega corporations to look good.
Dangersdan707
It hasn't stopped lots of countries running headlong into biomass - Ireland is converting its only coal fired power station (Moneypoint) to bio-mass; in that case it'll be wood pellets/chips from either Australia or Brazil. It'll have to be shipped halfway across the world and the carbon mitigation calculations by the time you've done that make it marginal - but they're still doing it.
Still though, I was aware of all that, The rare earth and the carbon intensive manufacturing process but I'm afraid I'm in the minority on that matter as most greenies still cling to solar and wind as the silver bullet to the crisis, ignoring what I view as the best way out, atomic energy.
Dangersdan707
Cobalt mining using children is the most awful bloody thing I've heard for ages and it still goes on today (discussed further here) and they need heaps of the stuff for those dinosaur electric cars, no longer viable since petrol became worthless.
  apw5910 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Location: Location.
They're not paying me to take it away yet...
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
"DOOMSDAY CULT" - c'mon dude, what on earth is being a bit skeptical about the deadly nature of carbon dioxide compared to the hysteria being spouted by the climate change people until only recently? They're the original doomsday sooth-sayers - and like all sooth-sayers they've been wrong for decades.
Don_dunstan
Your the one I'm quoting you realise? Nothing wrong with protecting the planet or being careful.

It hasn't stopped lots of countries running headlong into biomass - Ireland is converting its only coal fired power station (Moneypoint) to bio-mass; in that case it'll be wood pellets/chips from either Australia or Brazil. It'll have to be shipped halfway across the world and the carbon mitigation calculations by the time you've done that make it marginal - but they're still doing it.
Don_dunstan
Dig! As the Doco says, its a facade to mislead everyone that it is 'green' when really it is not'. All about making Money, not about the planet.

Cobalt mining using children is the most awful bloody thing I've heard for ages and it still goes on today (discussed further here) and they need heaps of the stuff for those dinosaur electric cars, no longer viable since petrol became worthless.
Don_dunstan
Agreed, I think any sane person would say so.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
They're not paying me to take it away yet...
apw5910
We should build some storage capacity on-shore in accessible ports like Port Pirie or Portland where fuel can be moved around Australia in a national distribution network type thing. Petrol fired cars aren't going away any time soon.
  apw5910 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Location: Location.
It's all right Don, with prices so low we are going to buy up big and apparently the Americans are going to look after our strategic reserve for us. What could go wrong?
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
"DOOMSDAY CULT" - c'mon dude, what on earth is being a bit skeptical about the deadly nature of carbon dioxide compared to the hysteria being spouted by the climate change people until only recently? They're the original doomsday sooth-sayers - and like all sooth-sayers they've been wrong for decades.
Your the one I'm quoting you realise? Nothing wrong with protecting the planet or being careful.
Dangersdan707
So who is doing that? Considering that nothing is what it seems as Moore points out.
Dig! As the Doco says, its a facade to mislead everyone that it is 'green' when really it is not'. All about making Money, not about the planet.
Dangersdan707
So who is doing that and why should we believe them?
  Groundrelay Chief Commissioner

Location: Surrounded by Trolls!
It's all right Don, with prices so low we are going to buy up big and apparently the Americans are going to look after our strategic reserve for us. What could go wrong?
apw5910
 Oil futures went negative and out of the blue comes this Strategic Oil Reserve. Really?
When something seems iffy, follow the money.

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