The corona virus COVID-19

 
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
This beast, the COVID, if left unchecked as you are suggesting...
billybaxter
Where did I say that COVID should be left unchecked? You're reading things into what I've said like all those other hysterics here on Railpage do to my posts.
...would do the same work that the Influenza does in a lifetime, in a year or two. Nearly everybody gets influenza eventually. A few of them die. COVID spreads three times as quickly and kills a lot more, some say 300 times more.
billybaxter
"Some say" - do you have a shred of evidence to support that assertion? Nah of course you don't.

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  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
A gentleman would have a shot at my completely valid point about the spread and mortality of Covid.
billybaxter
Why should I take anything you say seriously? Nobody else here does.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
There's plenty of people who are actually profiting from the misery inflicted by this disease - US billionaires (for example) have increased their wealth by more than a trillion dollars since the start of the pandemic in the US - Statistica:

An analysis by Chuck Collins at the Institute for Policy Studies found that American billionaires have been their wealth grow by $1 trillion since March of this year - more than 34 percent. That was not the case during the 2008 financial crisis when it took Forbes' 400 richest people three years to recoup their losses from the Great Recession. Collins' findings highlight a wealth gain by a mere 650 individuals that seems obscene at a time when nearly 7 million Americans are at risk of eviction when moratoriums expire at the end of the year.

There are 650 billionaires on the list, out of which 47 are new arrivals with 11 dropping out due to death or financial decline. There were numerous impressive financial gains among notable billionaires on the lit with Jeff Bezos growing his fortune by $69.4 billion between March 17 and November 24. The Amazon boss and richest man on the planet is now with $182.4 billion. The most impressive gain on the list was recorded by Tesla and SpaceX CEO Elon Musk who has seen his fortune experience a meteoric rise. In the above period, his weath surged a whopping 414 percent, climbing from "just" $24.6 billion to $126.2 billion, making him the world's second richest man after Bezos.
  billybaxter Chief Commissioner

Location: Bosnia Park, Fairfield
Dear oh dear, one minute you claim this thing is nothing but a mere little 'flu, the next thing you're telling us it's inflicting misery left, right and centre, one moment it's bringing economies to their feet, the next it's a fabulous wealth creator! Make up your mind. My statistics were gleaned from the ABS amongst other sources, although I'm sure you'll now mount your high horse to blabber about how that is nothering more than a hothouse of Commuists and Civil Service Loafers. You really need to open your eyes Don, and see that culture existed before Adelaide and Adam Smith, that wealth is a mere means to an end, but that for many, and you are clearly amongst this crowd, it can quickly become a false god. Take that Bible off your shelf, crack it open, visit the cathedrals of Europe, extate at the beauty created by our indigenous brothers and sisters, accept the beauty and beatitute of the glorious history of the China, the 'Middle Earth', stop being a blabbering scrooge and accept that life is a wonderous thing, but that sometimes, as now, a little mental fasting and discipline is needed, we may lose a few dollars but we gain peace and life.
  billybaxter Chief Commissioner

Location: Bosnia Park, Fairfield
And would you mind explaining why you deliberately misquoted my reference to 60% of the population needed for herd immunity, as 'everybody' will get it. If a customer paid 60% of an invoice, would you accept that as 'the whole lot'. For a man who cries foul at minor and imagined transgressions of your own perverted world view, you sure scream like a stuck pig when caught out, I'm expected your reaction now to be no different.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
Sorry Billy but you don't construct an argument that I can engage with in a meaningful way. You've written a lot of stuff there that just isn't anything to do with what was being discussed - and you're also making assumptions about the way I view the world that aren't true.
  theanimal Chief Commissioner

Dear oh dear, one minute you claim this thing is nothing but a mere little 'flu, the next thing you're telling us it's inflicting misery left, right and centre, one moment it's bringing economies to their feet, the next it's a fabulous wealth creator! Make up your mind. My statistics were gleaned from the ABS amongst other sources, although I'm sure you'll now mount your high horse to blabber about how that is nothering more than a hothouse of Commuists and Civil Service Loafers. You really need to open your eyes Don, and see that culture existed before Adelaide and Adam Smith, that wealth is a mere means to an end, but that for many, and you are clearly amongst this crowd, it can quickly become a false god. Take that Bible off your shelf, crack it open, visit the cathedrals of Europe, extate at the beauty created by our indigenous brothers and sisters, accept the beauty and beatitute of the glorious history of the China, the 'Middle Earth', stop being a blabbering scrooge and accept that life is a wonderous thing, but that sometimes, as now, a little mental fasting and discipline is needed, we may lose a few dollars but we gain peace and life.
billybaxter
A paragraph, a paragraph, my kingdom for a paragraph.
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Norda Fittazroy
and you're also making assumptions about the way I view the world that aren't true.
"don_dunstan"
You should know; you're an expert at doing exactly the same thing.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
and you're also making assumptions about the way I view the world that aren't true.
You should know; you're an expert at doing exactly the same thing.
Valvegear
So tell us what you think about the complete destruction of private enterprise in order to save the lives of already-ill octogenarians and nonagenarians then. All I've ever heard you say is that the shutdown of the economy was completely necessary - I've never heard you once acknowledge the sacrifice of the people who have lost businesses, lost houses or jobs because of the way the government responded.

In fact all I've ever heard you say about your personal sacrifices on account of the COVID shutdown in Melbourne was that you were unable to get a haircut.

Oh, the humanity!
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Norda Fittazroy
All I've ever heard you say is that the shutdown of the economy was completely necessary
"don_dunstan"

In fact all I've ever heard you say about your personal sacrifices on account of the COVID shutdown in Melbourne was that you were unable to get a haircut.
"don_dunstan"
Thank you. You obviously don't realise it, but you have just confirmed exactly the point I made. You have listed the two things you heard me say, after which you went off jumping to your own unjustified conclusions.
Thanks for digging your own grave; it saved me the effort.
  billybaxter Chief Commissioner

Location: Bosnia Park, Fairfield
Don, like his fallen-hero namesake, when staring the checkmate in the face, stands up and walks about from the board muttering 'they cheated and I didn't feel like playing that game anyway, which I had already won by the way' to anybody who will listen.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
All I've ever heard you say is that the shutdown of the economy was completely necessary

In fact all I've ever heard you say about your personal sacrifices on account of the COVID shutdown in Melbourne was that you were unable to get a haircut.
Thank you. You obviously don't realise it, but you have just confirmed exactly the point I made. You have listed the two things you heard me say, after which you went off jumping to your own unjustified conclusions.
Thanks for digging your own grave; it saved me the effort.
Valvegear
Nah, that's not how 'gotcha' is played.

The sequence of events has been this: I've been expressing sympathy for people who have lost houses, businesses and livelihoods on account of the COVID19 lockdowns in Victoria for which I've been called all sorts of names and told I'm a nutter, by people including your fine self.

I give you ample opportunities to express an alternative or contrary opinion and also justify why you think you're right, that the economic brutality of the lockdowns were a completely necessary thing - and you say nothing. The only piece of information I have about the personal sacrifice that you've made is the fact that you couldn't get a haircut while lockdown was in place which is something you mentioned months ago. But otherwise my assumption is that you're a rather comfortable retired person on a fixed income for whom COVID lockdown actually involved very little personal sacrifice and certainly no economic hardship. I'm basing that on what little I actually know about you - but it would seem to be right, wouldn't it?

So again, I'll give you an opportunity to express a different opinion to mine on the destruction of people's economic and social lives on account of COVID19. And if you still remain silent (or again tell me I'm crazy) then I'll have to assume what I said is right, that you don't really care because it didn't personally affect your economic situation and that you believe the ruination of hundreds of thousands of people in Victoria was completely justified.

Sounds fair?
  billybaxter Chief Commissioner

Location: Bosnia Park, Fairfield
Dear Don,

The U.K. and Swedish government have tried your approach. The U.K. gave up as soon as their deaths started to overtake those of Continental countries. Sweden has also just given up this approach now that a second wave of deaths is about to hit.

What have these governments done this instead of doing what you suggest?

Whatever your response is, have you tried to contact these governments and point out the error of their ways?

Can you give a reasonable explanation as to why your ideas are more feasible and logical than those of the scientific communities of just about every country where Covid-19 is present?

If your answer to the above is 'yes', why should we not believe you have a superiority complex of such grandeur that it requires medical attention?

Do you have examples of where leaving things as they were, without intervention, has or will have provable outcomes that are better than those of the actions being taken by most governments?

Please provide a method of calculating the value of a human life. There are many people in hospital, the care of whom requires expensive treatment, often subsidised by the government. Other than those suffering from Covid, whom you clearly believe should just be left to die, are there any others that should also be left to die if the calculation shows that their care is a drain on the budget. Your calculation can provide us with a 'line in the sand' for this.

God bless
  Carnot Minister for Railways

Here we go again...
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Norda Fittazroy
Nah, that's not how 'gotcha' is played.

The sequence of events has been this: I've been expressing sympathy for people who have lost houses, businesses and livelihoods on account of the COVID19 lockdowns in Victoria for which I've been called all sorts of names and told I'm a nutter, by people including your fine self.

I give you ample opportunities to express an alternative or contrary opinion and also justify why you think you're right, that the economic brutality of the lockdowns were a completely necessary thing - and you say nothing. The only piece of information I have about the personal sacrifice that you've made is the fact that you couldn't get a haircut while lockdown was in place which is something you mentioned months ago. But otherwise my assumption is that you're a rather comfortable retired person on a fixed income for whom COVID lockdown actually involved very little personal sacrifice and certainly no economic hardship. I'm basing that on what little I actually know about you - but it would seem to be right, wouldn't it?

So again, I'll give you an opportunity to express a different opinion to mine on the destruction of people's economic and social lives on account of COVID19. And if you still remain silent (or again tell me I'm crazy) then I'll have to assume what I said is right, that you don't really care because it didn't personally affect your economic situation and that you believe the ruination of hundreds of thousands of people in Victoria was completely justified.

Sounds fair?
don_dunstan
Not in the least and I'll tell you why.
A couple of months ago you weren't the least bit interested in being fair. You made up your mind about my attitude and criticised me roundly to the point of calling me dishonest and a liar. All of your criticism was based upon something I had not said or written; it was a bit of your standard mind-reading.
Now you have the effrontery to come and ask me what my attitude is/was, and show what a great guy you really are and how you play fair.
You are not right just because somebody says nothing, but you have such a colossal ego that you don't understand this. We would all be rich if we had 10 bucks for every time you state unequivocally that you're right based upon your imagination and no evidence. The absence of comment does not constitute evidence.
Don; you're the greatest fraud on Railpage and deserve every bit of opprobrium that's directed at you. I repeat what I and other good judges have said; leave your ego outside and go and get professional help. I won't be commenting any further on this.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
Nah, that's not how 'gotcha' is played.

The sequence of events has been this: I've been expressing sympathy for people who have lost houses, businesses and livelihoods on account of the COVID19 lockdowns in Victoria for which I've been called all sorts of names and told I'm a nutter, by people including your fine self.

I give you ample opportunities to express an alternative or contrary opinion and also justify why you think you're right, that the economic brutality of the lockdowns were a completely necessary thing - and you say nothing. The only piece of information I have about the personal sacrifice that you've made is the fact that you couldn't get a haircut while lockdown was in place which is something you mentioned months ago. But otherwise my assumption is that you're a rather comfortable retired person on a fixed income for whom COVID lockdown actually involved very little personal sacrifice and certainly no economic hardship. I'm basing that on what little I actually know about you - but it would seem to be right, wouldn't it?

So again, I'll give you an opportunity to express a different opinion to mine on the destruction of people's economic and social lives on account of COVID19. And if you still remain silent (or again tell me I'm crazy) then I'll have to assume what I said is right, that you don't really care because it didn't personally affect your economic situation and that you believe the ruination of hundreds of thousands of people in Victoria was completely justified.

Sounds fair?
Not in the least and I'll tell you why.
A couple of months ago you weren't the least bit interested in being fair. You made up your mind about my attitude and criticised me roundly to the point of calling me dishonest and a liar. All of your criticism was based upon something I had not said or written; it was a bit of your standard mind-reading.
Now you have the effrontery to come and ask me what my attitude is/was, and show what a great guy you really are and how you play fair.
You are not right just because somebody says nothing, but you have such a colossal ego that you don't understand this. We would all be rich if we had 10 bucks for every time you state unequivocally that you're right based upon your imagination and no evidence. The absence of comment does not constitute evidence.
Don; you're the greatest fraud on Railpage and deserve every bit of opprobrium that's directed at you. I repeat what I and other good judges have said; leave your ego outside and go and get professional help. I won't be commenting any further on this.
Valvegear
This is called "playing the man". Yet again I have to educate you people about what the tactic you're using is actually called.

Just like mejhammers who doesn't want to acknowledge that white people can also be disadvantaged and marginalised, you don't want to answer my questions about where you stand on something because it's simply too uncomfortable for you to contemplate the fact that hundreds of thousands of Victorians lost their livelihoods in order to protect people like you - who live in relative comfort and don't rely on a functioning private sector to get by. So instead you play the man.

And for your information, when you go hammer and tongs with an argument - for example, that the complete shut-down of the private sector in Victoria was totally necessary and that there was no other option - but you don't disclose your own lack of skin in that game - then yes, I consider that to be dishonest just the same as RTT_Rules going in to bat for the banks in Australia without disclosing the fact that he's very heavily invested in one of them.

If you have position that you're not disclosing in the course of an argument then it's dishonest. End-of-story.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
The absence of comment does not constitute evidence.
Valvegear
ON the contrary, Valvegear - continuing to not answer questions says volumes.
Don; you're the greatest fraud on Railpage and deserve every bit of opprobrium that's directed at you. I repeat what I and other good judges have said; leave your ego outside and go and get professional help. I won't be commenting any further on this.
Valvegear
Just because I'm good at reading the subtext of where someone is actually coming from that makes me mentally ill?
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
Isn't hindsight a wonderful thing and aren't we all pleased that we don't live in the northern hemisphere.

The federal government has proven themselves to be all about economics and couldn't really give a fig about people. This is behaviour akin to the outgoing Trump administration. The federal governments bleating about opening Victoria up earlier et al has been laid bare and public opinion is very strongly with the Andrews governments actions in its response to the pandemic.

Finally...the penny has dropped with the last of the naysayers in AU...it's yet to occur with the loony Right in USA...but I digress. COVID-19 is not like influenza. It's apparent that many people are left with long term respiratory issues and this virus is, as Dan said every day when undertaking his daily briefings... wildly infectious.

For me...despite the ruined lives and tragic deaths all around me, I couldn't be happier. Working from home, or wherever I happen to be at the time when I log on and continuing to do so until I decide to retire, I get a Sunday-like sleep-in every morning to around 7:45 instead of rising at 5:30 and I log on...the same time as I did when I commuted 80Km every morning to work.

I have time to cook meals properly, go for a bike ride, do my community service volunteering, tinker in my garden and now my commute has been reduced to 8 metres.

Mike.
  lsrailfan Chief Commissioner

Location: Somewhere you're not
There have been nearly 3,000 deaths in the U.S in the last 24 hours as a result of Covid-19, hospitalizations are also at an all time high, Joe Biden is going to ask the public to wear masks for the first 100 days after he takes office, in an attempt to drive down the infection numbers.
  nswtrains Chief Commissioner

There have been nearly 3,000 deaths in the U.S in the last 24 hours as a result of Covid-19, hospitalizations are also at an all time high, Joe Biden is going to ask the public to wear masks for the first 100 days after he takes office, in an attempt to drive down the infection numbers.
lsrailfan
Trump should be impeached for allowing this COVID-19 disaster to occur on his watch. The man is an animal.
  DirtyBallast Chief Commissioner

Location: I was here first. You're only visiting.
Nah, that's not how 'gotcha' is played.

The sequence of events has been this: I've been expressing sympathy for people who have lost houses, businesses and livelihoods on account of the COVID19 lockdowns in Victoria for which I've been called all sorts of names and told I'm a nutter, by people including your fine self.

I give you ample opportunities to express an alternative or contrary opinion and also justify why you think you're right, that the economic brutality of the lockdowns were a completely necessary thing - and you say nothing. The only piece of information I have about the personal sacrifice that you've made is the fact that you couldn't get a haircut while lockdown was in place which is something you mentioned months ago. But otherwise my assumption is that you're a rather comfortable retired person on a fixed income for whom COVID lockdown actually involved very little personal sacrifice and certainly no economic hardship. I'm basing that on what little I actually know about you - but it would seem to be right, wouldn't it?

So again, I'll give you an opportunity to express a different opinion to mine on the destruction of people's economic and social lives on account of COVID19. And if you still remain silent (or again tell me I'm crazy) then I'll have to assume what I said is right, that you don't really care because it didn't personally affect your economic situation and that you believe the ruination of hundreds of thousands of people in Victoria was completely justified.

Sounds fair?
Not in the least and I'll tell you why.
A couple of months ago you weren't the least bit interested in being fair. You made up your mind about my attitude and criticised me roundly to the point of calling me dishonest and a liar. All of your criticism was based upon something I had not said or written; it was a bit of your standard mind-reading.
Now you have the effrontery to come and ask me what my attitude is/was, and show what a great guy you really are and how you play fair.
You are not right just because somebody says nothing, but you have such a colossal ego that you don't understand this. We would all be rich if we had 10 bucks for every time you state unequivocally that you're right based upon your imagination and no evidence. The absence of comment does not constitute evidence.
Don; you're the greatest fraud on Railpage and deserve every bit of opprobrium that's directed at you. I repeat what I and other good judges have said; leave your ego outside and go and get professional help. I won't be commenting any further on this.
This is called "playing the man". Yet again I have to educate you people about what the tactic you're using is actually called.

Just like mejhammers who doesn't want to acknowledge that white people can also be disadvantaged and marginalised, you don't want to answer my questions about where you stand on something because it's simply too uncomfortable for you to contemplate the fact that hundreds of thousands of Victorians lost their livelihoods in order to protect people like you - who live in relative comfort and don't rely on a functioning private sector to get by. So instead you play the man.

And for your information, when you go hammer and tongs with an argument - for example, that the complete shut-down of the private sector in Victoria was totally necessary and that there was no other option - but you don't disclose your own lack of skin in that game - then yes, I consider that to be dishonest just the same as RTT_Rules going in to bat for the banks in Australia without disclosing the fact that he's very heavily invested in one of them.

If you have position that you're not disclosing in the course of an argument then it's dishonest. End-of-story.
don_dunstan
Don,

Your rhetoric regarding a complete shut-down of the private sector in Victoria deserves derision. The vast majority of people here remained busy at work in their non-government jobs small and large, just like I did in my full time private sector job, right through the pandemic.  

And, what skin in the game do you have regarding what happens in Victoria, apart from the people that you ran away from?
  doyle Deputy Commissioner
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

The boarding passes were issued in Germany, which suggests there is a federal government problem with their lax regulation of the aviation industry.

If they managed to transfer from their international arrival to the domestic departure without leaving the airport, then they never entered NSW. The problem then is how the feds let them connect their flights and how Victoria let a contaminated load of passengers into their state border (the exit from Tullamarine).

If they did enter NSW and then re-enter the airport, then the fault is shared three ways between the feds, NSW and Victoria.
  Carnot Minister for Railways

Probably less than a 1% chance they're infected.  Shouldn't have happened that they 'escaped' quarantine, but really a Storm in a Teacup.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
Don,

Your rhetoric regarding a complete shut-down of the private sector in Victoria deserves derision. The vast majority of people here remained busy at work in their non-government jobs small and large, just like I did in my full time private sector job, right through the pandemic.  

And, what skin in the game do you have regarding what happens in Victoria, apart from the people that you ran away from?
DirtyBallast
We're all in this together - the extreme measures in Victoria will be paid for ultimately by all Commonwealth taxpayers.

The real rate of job loss in the private sector is almost impossible to measure because you're not counted as unemployed when you're on JobKeeper - but the disruption to retail and hospitality (in particular) was huge - around 350,000 jobs gone from what I've read. Remains to be seen if they bounce back from this or not.

We also have an enormous smoke-screen covering the real damage being inflicted in the form of Keynesian borrowing the likes of which hasn't been seen since WWII. The Commonwealth is still - STILL - borrowing $5 billion a week to pump into the Aussie economy. If it wasn't for that Keynesian pump-priming the situation would be far worse but then they don't want us to see the true extent of the damage done do they.

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