Victorian Power Crisis

 
Topic moved from Victoria by dthead on 03 Feb 2020 21:35
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
I agree with you BG, we ought to have a reliable electricity network as we once did. But until that is restored, if you have a need, and you can afford it, it makes sense.
Lockspike
And what if you can't afford it? The Milk Bar owner where i get my lunch was pretty much in tears today when I went in as he contemplated (once again) throwing out the contents of his ice cream fridges. They are trying to retire after 20 years running the shop, has tried to sell it but no takers. He and his family have worked 7 days a week 364 days a year for just enough $$$ to put the kids through school and have an OK life - no fancy cars or nights out at restaurants or anything that many take for granted, just getting by. To him it makes no sense.

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  Lockspike Deputy Commissioner

Serious question, do you run your own business? Is is your hard earned that will be spent on this "cheap insurance"?

Is it you who will be making the choice between taking the fam on holidays or spending the little you have managed to save in a tough year on a generator?

Like I say a serious question. Not just for you but for anyone who thinks that small business people are millionaires who can just pop on down to the local Lyal Eales and fork out for a generator on a whim.
BrentonGolding
Err, yes I do. The irony is that I provide services to small businesses, so I'm well aware of how precarious many small businesses are.
  BigShunter Chief Commissioner

Location: St Clair. S.A.
I assume you are having a laugh but a small business can't just go and buy a cheap genny from Aldi.
BrentonGolding
Well ya a bit Feisty this evening BG, er in doors hasn't locked ya out has she ?

I'm not laughing at all, as you know I used to live on the farm and I know what it's like to have to pull money out of you know where to repair a fence or similar because you can't afford to have a mob of sheep on the road and someone plough's into em, wrecks their car and gets injured.

Don't think were're gaining any ground on each other, so down tools and we will agree to disagree.

BigShunter.
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
Serious question, do you run your own business? Is is your hard earned that will be spent on this "cheap insurance"?

Is it you who will be making the choice between taking the fam on holidays or spending the little you have managed to save in a tough year on a generator?

Like I say a serious question. Not just for you but for anyone who thinks that small business people are millionaires who can just pop on down to the local Lyal Eales and fork out for a generator on a whim.
Err, yes I do. The irony is that I provide services to small businesses, so I'm well aware of how precarious many small businesses are.
Lockspike
Great - so you would be aware of how many of them are going to the wall. In our industry (motorcycle parts and accessories) we have seen so many businesses fold over the last few years or so it is insane. Many who had been in business for years and even generations.

Small business used to be referred to as the Engine Room of the economy but I reckon that is getting less true by the year. (article from 2016 here http://theconversation.com/is-small-business-really-the-engine-room-of-australias-economy-60447)

Who the hell would want to start their own business in the current environment? You work long hours, in many cases get not great money, no super, very few holidays etc etc and the government treats you llke sh1t and throws you to the wolves the minute anything goes t1ts up. What's not to like!

And what support do you get from your fellow man for your labours? Oh, you want to actually be able to open your shop and sell your wares? What you need is a GENERATOR!!!!!!!
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
I assume you are having a laugh but a small business can't just go and buy a cheap genny from Aldi.
Well ya a bit Feisty this evening BG, er in doors hasn't locked ya out has she ?
BigShunter
No, I've had a REALLY bad day, lost a whole bunch of $$$ due to the fact that we had no power for 5+ hours on the last day of the month when we are trying to make budgets, get paid by account customers, load recent inward shipments to our website etc etc and then have to listen to people tell me that it is my fault that I didn't go out and spend $10K or so on getting a generator installed (yes, I have actually looked into it!) and watched a whole bunch of my fellow central Victorian business people go through the same thing while listening to someone tell me that there is nothing to see here because the trams are still running in the CBD

It would be great if small business including farmers etc could afford to go on strike for a week or so to show just what a huge contribution we make to the economy. But of course that will never happen.

FFS
  C2 Junior Train Controller

Solar Panels are half Price under Andrews up to 6 K/W and if your postcode is on the list you can get batteries cheap. Then you don't have to worry about power lines. Cashless Welfare Cards will kill Small Country break even business like Milk Bars , Fish Chip's , Tobacconist , bottle shops , charities. So fear not bush digger's the water will be pumped from the Basins and Fracking will kill the Land. Thanks for Duel nationality.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
The trams are still running up and down Collins St as I write this and the air-con shops are still pumping out cool air.

Nothing to see here...Murdoch press caught out yet again...their motto....never let the truth get in the way of a good story.

Mike.
The Vinelander
About 40,000 homes and businesses lost power across Victoria and it wasn't restored for several hours after the incident near Cressy and also the SA/VIC intconnector failing. Also Portland smelter's pot line destroyed again by a power outage, this is the second time in recent memory - as BrentonGolding said you seriously have to wonder if things like aluminium production are in any way viable given the heavy subsidy plus the unreliable nature of the supply now-days. The problem is that Portland will be a regional unemployment black hole without that smelter (yet another one).

So yeah, not "nothing to see here" at all.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
Power lines are out in Western Victoria due to a storm.

Portland Smelter is out cold without power.
The Smelter is still 2/3 alive. It is being fed from S.A. and Mortlake Gasfired Power Station at the moment.
Jack Le Lievre
The inter-connector tripped out so the whole plant lost power eventually. Big $$$ to re-mediate.

I'm absolutely astonished that neither the ABC nor The Age have covered this, not one single line anywhere on their websites. The only news source covering this disaster is the evil, biased Murdoch press. From The Australian:

By 8.30pm (AEDT) on Friday the number of homes in Victoria without power reached 26,000, concentrated mainly in Melbourne with AusNet, which supplies Melbourne and Victoria’s east, stating almost 18,000 customers have lost electricity.

Australia’s power operator called on Victoria to prepare short-term emergency electricity reserves after the interconnector tripped, just before 1.30pm.

AEMO then activated the last ditch power mechanism at 1.51pm — known as the Reliability and Emergency Reserve Trader — in a bid to maintain power system security using reserve supplies and demand management contracts previously agreed with the market.(that is paying money to bribe businesses to shut down).

A level two ‘lack of reserve’ was also declared in Victoria on Friday afternoon as a signal for the market to direct urgent electricity supplies to the grid through either a boost in supplies or large industrial businesses cutting demand.

Shortly after the interconnector was cut, Alcoa’s giant Portland smelter was also understood to have been forced offline potentially helping to ease the tight market in Victoria by reducing about 600 megawatts of demand on the system.

“South Australia was exporting to Victoria at the time. The loss of supply almost exactly matched by a 600MW drop in Victoria, presumably Alcoa’s Portland smelter,” GlobalRoam managing director Paul McArdle said.

Portland’s owner, Alcoa, confirmed the outage.

“At approximately 2:20pm on 31 January, Portland Aluminium smelter lost power to both potlines due to a fault external to the plant. The cause of the fault is currently unknown,” an Alcoa spokeswoman told The Australian.

So what actually happened was that the national power grid yet again failed and left a crucial piece of infrastructure that relies on the grid without power as well as tens of thousands of homes. Yet somehow only News Ltd thought this was newsworthy?
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
I assume you are having a laugh but a small business can't just go and buy a cheap genny from Aldi.
Well ya a bit Feisty this evening BG, er in doors hasn't locked ya out has she ?
No, I've had a REALLY bad day, lost a whole bunch of $$$ due to the fact that we had no power for 5+ hours on the last day of the month when we are trying to make budgets, get paid by account customers, load recent inward shipments to our website etc etc and then have to listen to people tell me that it is my fault that I didn't go out and spend $10K or so on getting a generator installed (yes, I have actually looked into it!) and watched a whole bunch of my fellow central Victorian business people go through the same thing while listening to someone tell me that there is nothing to see here because the trams are still running in the CBD

It would be great if small business including farmers etc could afford to go on strike for a week or so to show just what a huge contribution we make to the economy. But of course that will never happen.

FFS
BrentonGolding
I agree with you a hundred percent, why should anyone have to put either a generator or solar and batteries in - what happened to the idea that a modern industrial society needed and could expect constant and reliable power? What the hell do you pay for when you pay a 'supply charge' every single day, you should be compensated every single time they fail to deliver.
  michaelgm Chief Commissioner

I assume you are having a laugh but a small business can't just go and buy a cheap genny from Aldi.
Well ya a bit Feisty this evening BG, er in doors hasn't locked ya out has she ?
No, I've had a REALLY bad day, lost a whole bunch of $$$ due to the fact that we had no power for 5+ hours on the last day of the month when we are trying to make budgets, get paid by account customers, load recent inward shipments to our website etc etc and then have to listen to people tell me that it is my fault that I didn't go out and spend $10K or so on getting a generator installed (yes, I have actually looked into it!) and watched a whole bunch of my fellow central Victorian business people go through the same thing while listening to someone tell me that there is nothing to see here because the trams are still running in the CBD

It would be great if small business including farmers etc could afford to go on strike for a week or so to show just what a huge contribution we make to the economy. But of course that will never happen.

FFS
I agree with you a hundred percent, why should anyone have to put either a generator or solar and batteries in - what happened to the idea that a modern industrial society needed and could expect constant and reliable power? What the hell do you pay for when you pay a 'supply charge' every single day, you should be compensated every single time they fail to deliver.
don_dunstan
Don, roof top solar won’t help in the event of blackout. System will shut down to reduce risk to personal attempting repairs. At least mine does.
Perhaps someone with a greater knowledge of electricity than me, not difficult can elaborate on how this may work with on site storage.
Who actually has responsibility for continued supply in Vic? An inefficient bloated government bureaucracy or a private operator, maximising profit at the expense of customers?
  Carnot Minister for Railways

In future it'll be virtually required (and financially advantageous) some businesses to install battery backups (ie. Tesla Powerwalls).  That's not a bad thing.

What is bad is some of the horror stories I'm hearing regarding poorly installed and planned large solar farms spiking the grid and causing serious damage, including fires.  Watch this space...
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
Ever since Kennett privatised the lot, successive Victorian Premiers seem to have believed that they had no obligation to ensure adequate power supplies available to meet the inevitable growing demand.
  Fatty Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
I'm absolutely astonished that neither the ABC nor The Age have covered this, not one single line anywhere on their websites. The only news source covering this disaster is the evil, biased Murdoch press.
don_dunstan
Yes it would be astonishing if it was true. The ABC story is here: https://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2020-01-31/victoria-heatwave-high-fire-risk-january-31/11916302.

It's unsurprising that The Australian mentions that the interconnector was 'cut' and 'tripped' but failed to mention it was due to storm damage to 5 transmission  towers. The ABC mentions that and also has photos in the follow up story: https://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2020-02-01/wild-weather-victoria-continues-across-victoria/11920502.
  david harvey Chief Train Controller

Location: Bairnsdale Wharf Line
I assume you are having a laugh but a small business can't just go and buy a cheap genny from Aldi.
Well ya a bit Feisty this evening BG, er in doors hasn't locked ya out has she ?
No, I've had a REALLY bad day, lost a whole bunch of $$$ due to the fact that we had no power for 5+ hours on the last day of the month when we are trying to make budgets, get paid by account customers, load recent inward shipments to our website etc etc and then have to listen to people tell me that it is my fault that I didn't go out and spend $10K or so on getting a generator installed (yes, I have actually looked into it!) and watched a whole bunch of my fellow central Victorian business people go through the same thing while listening to someone tell me that there is nothing to see here because the trams are still running in the CBD

It would be great if small business including farmers etc could afford to go on strike for a week or so to show just what a huge contribution we make to the economy. But of course that will never happen.

FFS
BrentonGolding
I am sorry that you had losses ,we all loose when the power goes out . It unfortunate that is what we have become a consumer society. It happen down a Mallacoota during the recent fires, no fuel ,no food no water,no credit, no cash , no mobile phone signal all because of no 240 volt domestic base load power. It was visions of Greece when they recently  have their run on the banks or much like The Lebanon of the West Bank with their wars. People looked shell shocked apart from dealing with the fires they had to deal with the loose of their wi-Fi. How conditioned we have become to flick on the switch and when  there is regular power rationing in the future,lets say no power between 1600 and 2000 hours each night,only  then Spring Street will sit up and take notice because now there are votes involved and its political suicide not to act .I am not talking about the Greens or solar or batteries or Climate change  as I dont have the answer but its point less nit picking each other about this ,as we are a consumer society and we demand power to come out of that plug ,I known I do.
  C2 Junior Train Controller

I did a ELV (extra low voltage ) course with PV in 2006 for free at Swinburne night school. This sales man lived in Buyip and had $50,000 system with a 'solar treaker' that moved with the sun. He was off grid with batteries. Two story house with say 2 tennage girls. He had no problem being %100 powered all the time. He stated you can add PV's to the treaker arm for more Kw ,Thats so long ago so much must of improved. Also selling back to the grid doesn't generate you any money just credits on your bill..why we're capitalist but not for civilians.
  BigShunter Chief Commissioner

Location: St Clair. S.A.
No, I've had a REALLY bad day, lost a whole bunch of $$$ due to the fact that we had no power for 5+ hours on the last day of the month when we are trying to make budgets, get paid by account customers, load recent inward shipments to our website etc etc and then have to listen to people tell me that it is my fault that I didn't go out and spend $10K or so on getting a generator installed (yes, I have actually looked into it!) and watched a whole bunch of my fellow central Victorian business people go through the same thing while listening to someone tell me that there is nothing to see here because the trams are still running in the CBD

It would be great if small business including farmers etc could afford to go on strike for a week or so to show just what a huge contribution we make to the economy. But of course that will never happen.

FFS
BrentonGolding
Well ......Shocked and thank you Very much umpire...

BigShunter.
  Andrewdr Locomotive Fireman

Not being a smart ar$e BG but hundreds of thousands of $$$ sounds as if ya own generator would be a smart move, particularly the butcher or any joint relying on keeping their food cold or frozen....

You see it all the time on the news a retailer going crook about loosing a hundred grand worth of stock, they keep a 40' container of meat frozen on the back of a truck from Bloody Bordertown to Melbourne or train from Mildura, a small diesel engine the source of power generation....Shocked

BigShunter.
You're right Shunter, generators are much cheaper (and quieter) than they used to be; cheap insurance.
Lockspike
I have household solar and generate some 10+MWhrs per year. At this stage it is not economic to install a battery.
I also have 2 Honda EU20i generators @ $1500 ea. When we had the big outage here in SA (pylons blown over) we were without power for 30+ hrs. One 20i ran the house, including a/c for $32 petrol and I received $240 compensation from SA Power Networks. The proper change over switch installed by the sparky was $400. The other 20i is for the bore (fire fighting) or it can be connected in tandem to produce 4Kw for the house, if needed.
If businesses installed a generator backup, I would expect that their insurer would give them a discount re obviating loss of refrigerated product.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
I'm absolutely astonished that neither the ABC nor The Age have covered this, not one single line anywhere on their websites. The only news source covering this disaster is the evil, biased Murdoch press.
Yes it would be astonishing if it was true. The ABC story is here: https://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2020-01-31/victoria-heatwave-high-fire-risk-january-31/11916302.

It's unsurprising that The Australian mentions that the interconnector was 'cut' and 'tripped' but failed to mention it was due to storm damage to 5 transmission  towers. The ABC mentions that and also has photos in the follow up story: https://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2020-02-01/wild-weather-victoria-continues-across-victoria/11920502.
Fatty
Half a paragraph, didn't mention the the SA/VIC inter-connector became overloaded and had to shut down. You're getting the storm damage confused with the incident near Cressy where transmission towers fell over due to the storm - again - Murdoch got this right and Aunty didn't.

I'm sick to death of people accusing the Murdoch press of being biased, in many cases they are the only completely accurate news source about what is actually going on in this country. I never thought I'd say this ten years ago but I just don't trust the national broadcaster any more to get the facts right. They want us to swallow the official climate change narrative and anyone who doesn't agree gets shouted down.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
Ever since Kennett privatised the lot, successive Victorian Premiers seem to have believed that they had no obligation to ensure adequate power supplies available to meet the inevitable growing demand.
Valvegear
It's a combination of privatised power gouging a captive market and the complete mess that 'green' energy sources have been making of the grid and the concept of reliable supply.

I think Brenton has every right to be furious - I felt exactly the same way after the blackout we had here in 2016 that was exclusively due to overloaded wind farms although they did everything they could to try and bury that cause. Now the poor long-suffering grid captive South Australian residents such as myself have to pay $1,600,000,000 to build yet another transmission line to NSW in order to try and shore up our capacity during times that our rubbish wind-towers and solar inputs can't meet demand or are knocked out of action and so we don't need the $300,000,000 worth of diesel generators that Weatherill bought to back-up the grid any more.

NONE of this would have happened if South Australia's only coal-fired power plant - Playford at Port Augusta - was still supplying us with cheap and reliable power. Honestly, who on earth would want to be running a business in South Australia OR Victoria - we have between us the highest domestic electricity charges in the world and we can't even manage to keep the lights on all the time.
  Fatty Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
I'm absolutely astonished that neither the ABC nor The Age have covered this, not one single line anywhere on their websites. The only news source covering this disaster is the evil, biased Murdoch press.
Yes it would be astonishing if it was true. The ABC story is here: https://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2020-01-31/victoria-heatwave-high-fire-risk-january-31/11916302.

It's unsurprising that The Australian mentions that the interconnector was 'cut' and 'tripped' but failed to mention it was due to storm damage to 5 transmission  towers. The ABC mentions that and also has photos in the follow up story: https://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2020-02-01/wild-weather-victoria-continues-across-victoria/11920502.
Half a paragraph, didn't mention the the SA/VIC inter-connector became overloaded and had to shut down. You're getting the storm damage confused with the incident near Cressy where transmission towers fell over due to the storm - again - Murdoch got this right and Aunty didn't.

I'm sick to death of people accusing the Murdoch press of being biased, in many cases they are the only completely accurate news source about what is actually going on in this country. I never thought I'd say this ten years ago but I just don't trust the national broadcaster any more to get the facts right. They want us to swallow the official climate change narrative and anyone who doesn't agree gets shouted down.
don_dunstan

I think you'll find half a paragraph is quite a bit more than your assertion of 'not a single line' so how about accepting that you were wrong and moving on?

The AEMO media release about the incident directly attributes the issues to the storm damage but don't let the facts get in the way of your word salad rant. https://aemo.com.au/news/updated-heatwave-conditions-in-victoria
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
Don, roof top solar won’t help in the event of blackout. System will shut down to reduce risk to personal attempting repairs. At least mine does.
Perhaps someone with a greater knowledge of electricity than me, not difficult can elaborate on how this may work with on site storage.
Who actually has responsibility for continued supply in Vic? An inefficient bloated government bureaucracy or a private operator, maximising profit at the expense of customers?
michaelgm
Michael, as Valvegear said (and I'm in rare agreement with him) no-one seems to be responsible for the supply of reliable electricity in our states any more and the people like Brenton who suffer the most are the ones trying to run businesses with an intermittent grid vulnerable to storms.

The ABC was talking about the loss of Portland smelter from the VIC grid like it was a good thing because Victoria was seriously overloaded at that point and needed to load-shed. No mention of the fact that this is the second time in recent history that Portland's pot line has been unexpectedly shut down, something that will cost them big money to remediate and could possibly affect the future viability of the plant. How did Victoria get from a point of almost never having to load-shed on hot days to where it is now? How did the grid get to the point of being not-fit-for-purpose any longer with almost no redundancy built into it on a hot day?
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
I think you'll find half a paragraph is quite a bit more than your assertion of 'not a single line' so how about accepting that you were wrong and moving on?

The AEMO media release about the incident directly attributes the issues to the storm damage but don't let the facts get in the way of your word salad rant. https://aemo.com.au/news/updated-heatwave-conditions-in-victoria
Fatty
The AEMO is not the ABC and the ABC didn't accurately report the source of the problems, nor the consequences.
  Fatty Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
I think you'll find half a paragraph is quite a bit more than your assertion of 'not a single line' so how about accepting that you were wrong and moving on?

The AEMO media release about the incident directly attributes the issues to the storm damage but don't let the facts get in the way of your word salad rant. https://aemo.com.au/news/updated-heatwave-conditions-in-victoria
The AEMO is not the ABC and the ABC didn't accurately report the source of the problems, nor the consequences.
don_dunstan
The ABC attributed it to storm damage. AEMO attributed it to storm damage. How many straws are you left clutching?
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
I think you'll find half a paragraph is quite a bit more than your assertion of 'not a single line' so how about accepting that you were wrong and moving on?

The AEMO media release about the incident directly attributes the issues to the storm damage but don't let the facts get in the way of your word salad rant. https://aemo.com.au/news/updated-heatwave-conditions-in-victoria
The AEMO is not the ABC and the ABC didn't accurately report the source of the problems, nor the consequences.
The ABC attributed it to storm damage. AEMO attributed it to storm damage. How many straws are you left clutching?
Fatty
It's not the full story, The Australian carried the full story.
  Fatty Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
I think you'll find half a paragraph is quite a bit more than your assertion of 'not a single line' so how about accepting that you were wrong and moving on?

The AEMO media release about the incident directly attributes the issues to the storm damage but don't let the facts get in the way of your word salad rant. https://aemo.com.au/news/updated-heatwave-conditions-in-victoria
The AEMO is not the ABC and the ABC didn't accurately report the source of the problems, nor the consequences.
The ABC attributed it to storm damage. AEMO attributed it to storm damage. How many straws are you left clutching?
It's not the full story, The Australian carried the full story.
don_dunstan
The Australian carried the full story except for the bit about the interconnector being damaged by a storm which caused the outage.

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