Barossa tourist plan derailed as Supreme Court backs State Government

 
Topic moved from News by bevans on 21 Apr 2020 21:15
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
They really do despise rail in that state.  What a stupid decision where the rail line could have been very useful to bring visitors to the region. 

Marshall and Knoll really do hate rail.

I have always said, there are those that get it, those who don't get it and those who will never get it.

Barossa tourist plan derailed as Supreme Court backs State Government

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  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
They really do despise rail in that state.  What a stupid decision where the rail line could have been very useful to bring visitors to the region.

Marshall and Knoll really do hate rail.

I have always said, there are those that get it, those who don't get it and those who will never get it.

Barossa tourist plan derailed as Supreme Court backs State Government
bevans
The viability of running tourist trains In this day and age Is In steady decline (largely due to ever Increasing costs)

Visitors to the Barossa Valley are spoilt for choices, when It comes to road based transport options.
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

Good decision by the court.

If there is a serious proposal, reinstalling rails at Kroemer Crossing will be a very small part of the work needing to be done.
  Gayspie Assistant Commissioner

Location: Adelaide, SA
I am fuming at the outcome of this anti regional rail decision.
  SinickleBird Assistant Commissioner

Location: Qantas Club at Mudgee International Airport
How many pre-sold tickets does he need to refund? Or was it just a dream?

D’Arenberg cube doesn’t connect to rail either, so I’m not sure it’s a good comparison.
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

How many pre-sold tickets does he need to refund? Or was it just a dream?

D’Arenberg cube doesn’t connect to rail either, so I’m not sure it’s a good comparison.
SinickleBird
Dream is a polite way to put it.

I have a suspicion that it was never about the railway (reinstatement of which is catered for in the Kroemer Crossing Upgrade project design) in the first place.
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
The Barossa area is about visiting wineries; how do you do that if you arrive at one point by train? . . . taxi?  . . . bus? . . . bike?
  apw5910 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Location: Location.
The Barossa area is about visiting wineries; how do you do that if you arrive at one point by train? . . . taxi?  . . . bus? . . . bike?
Valvegear
I greatly enjoyed visiting the Marlborough wineries (South Island, NZ), catching the steam train to/from Picton. They bused us around the vineyards after getting off the train. But those wineries weren't geared for "wedding factory" operations like you find in Australia (ie quite a bit smaller and more intimate).
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
The Barossa area is about visiting wineries; how do you do that if you arrive at one point by train? . . . taxi?  . . . bus? . . . bike?
I greatly enjoyed visiting the Marlborough wineries (South Island, NZ), catching the steam train to/from Picton. They bused us around the vineyards after getting off the train. But those wineries weren't geared for "wedding factory" operations like you find in Australia (ie quite a bit smaller and more intimate).
apw5910

And this is exactly what the visionaries in the Barossa are wanting to do.  Unfortunately the only education I can find their local member (Knoll) has is a marketing degree.  One would have thought with this degree he would have at least a basic understanding of how important building a viable and sustainable Barossa visits business plan would be especially for a state like SA.

The mind boggles.
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

The Kroemer's Crossing roundabout north of Tanunda (i.e. the down direction from Tanunda) is not an obstacle to Geber's unfunded proposal for the Barossa Wine Train, because his proposal is to run to Tanunda only.

This is about trying to block a road upgrade which would primarily benefit some of his competitors by improving their freight routes (for which they are contributing funding) and nothing to do with the railway.

The real obstacles to him running the BWT to Tanunda are the lack of a business case and funding, not a roundabout being constructed on a section of railway he doesn't want to use.

As for why he doesn't want to run the BWT to Nuriootpa like it did under previous ownership, have a look at what businesses are right next to Tanunda station and join the dots. He wants to do it (provided someone else pays for it) because it will benefit him, not because he's a visionary looking to grow the area.

The Barossa area is about visiting wineries; how do you do that if you arrive at one point by train? . . . taxi?  . . . bus? . . . bike?
Valvegear
Geber would hope that you just stick to the wineries and accomodation in a nice short walking distance from Tanunda station.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
The Barossa area is about visiting wineries; how do you do that if you arrive at one point by train? . . . taxi?  . . . bus? . . . bike?
Valvegear
Having caught the train to Barossa, I can assure it this was not an issue. Just choose your mode, bus, private car, luxury car, historic car....
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
The Kroemer's Crossing roundabout north of Tanunda (i.e. the down direction from Tanunda) is not an obstacle to Geber's unfunded proposal for the Barossa Wine Train, because his proposal is to run to Tanunda only.

This is about trying to block a road upgrade which would primarily benefit some of his competitors by improving their freight routes (for which they are contributing funding) and nothing to do with the railway.

The real obstacles to him running the BWT to Tanunda are the lack of a business case and funding, not a roundabout being constructed on a section of railway he doesn't want to use.

As for why he doesn't want to run the BWT to Nuriootpa like it did under previous ownership, have a look at what businesses are right next to Tanunda station and join the dots. He wants to do it (provided someone else pays for it) because it will benefit him, not because he's a visionary looking to grow the area.

The Barossa area is about visiting wineries; how do you do that if you arrive at one point by train? . . . taxi?  . . . bus? . . . bike?
Geber would hope that you just stick to the wineries and accomodation in a nice short walking distance from Tanunda station.
justapassenger
I agree the Barossa is unlikely to support a self funded tourist rail service, it couldn't in the past when it didn't have to the fully fund the rail line.

However for me this is a combined tourist / commuter project, run using govt funded DMU's with perhaps a private carriage added to the train for higher end users (like what happens in Sri Lanka) which would have lower operating cost that the former wine train. ie only one carriage, no driver needed.

3 return services a day for both commuter and tourist.

You would fill the trains in both directions.
  62440 Chief Commissioner

Out of curiosity, is there a formal campaign group? It would need to be incorporated in order to organise formal submissions. There are a number of suggestions for the work required which are incompatible. Is it agreed yet on what the aims are? It cannot be a tourist service and a commuter service, these have differing requirements, though you could run heritage stock on a commuter line.
I think it can be assumed that the government does not have a few spare hundred millions to spend without a formal business case, who is going to fund this? If the government, you have to prepare a case for funding the business case. Catch 22.
Personally, I would like to see the existing Gawler Central service extended to Nuri with commuter parking and access for heritage trains. This would be electrified, at least hourly, preferably half hourly in line with the rest of the metro network. All highway crossings would be grade separated and the line rated at 110 km/h. If you are going to do it, do it properly.
For info, I have prepared studies for government in other states on reopening lines where the infrastructure was still extant, so I have a good idea of what is needed. There we had strong support from Councils, something we don't have here.
I see a number of individuals who don't agree on what they are campaigning for, you should get together, when this isolation ends.
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
I have been on literally hundreds of wine tours, never once by train.

If the case for the train to Chateau Tanunda (which let’s face it is the primary proponent’s primary objective) is so strong, why has the idea failed numerous times before? Why is a roundabout further down the line an impediment? Why is he not running the train right now at least to Tanunda to show it’s viable then proposing further extensions?

In every case it’s because the case is not viable.

The Supreme Court made the correct decision (notably based on evidence) - this has NOTHING to do with being anti rail, and everything to do with not being an idiot wasting money.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
...

In every case it’s because the case is not viable.
Aaron
Yeah that's the nub of the problem isn't it - I've never thought that the Bluebirds were the best choice for a tourist train anyway, it should really have been something with some historical value (preferably steam). But then Adelaide station isn't suitable for steam any more and Keswick is a pain to get to - there's multiple things working against that route ever succeeding as a tourist train which is a shame.
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
...

In every case it’s because the case is not viable.
Yeah that's the nub of the problem isn't it - I've never thought that the Bluebirds were the best choice for a tourist train anyway, it should really have been something with some historical value (preferably steam). But then Adelaide station isn't suitable for steam any more and Keswick is a pain to get to - there's multiple things working against that route ever succeeding as a tourist train which is a shame.
don_dunstan
I don't think Keswick Terminal has Broad gauge access anymore, the points at at least one end are no longer dual gauge and rest I believe is served from the suburban network.

Oh and on your steam dream, you can always do Push and pull style services Laughing just need another steam or Diesel locomotive.
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
Having caught the train to Barossa, . . . .
"RTT_Rules"
When?
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Out of curiosity, is there a formal campaign group? It would need to be incorporated in order to organise formal submissions. There are a number of suggestions for the work required which are incompatible.

Is it agreed yet on what the aims are? It cannot be a tourist service and a commuter service, these have differing requirements, though you could run heritage stock on a commuter line.

I think it can be assumed that the government does not have a few spare hundred millions to spend without a formal business case, who is going to fund this? If the government, you have to prepare a case for funding the business case. Catch 22.

Personally, I would like to see the existing Gawler Central service extended to Nuri with commuter parking and access for heritage trains. This would be electrified, at least hourly, preferably half hourly in line with the rest of the metro network.

All highway crossings would be grade separated and the line rated at 110 km/h. If you are going to do it, do it properly.

For info, I have prepared studies for government in other states on reopening lines where the infrastructure was still extant, so I have a good idea of what is needed. There we had strong support from Councils, something we don't have here.
I see a number of individuals who don't agree on what they are campaigning for, you should get together, when this isolation ends.
"62440"


A few comments

- The 110km/h isn't going to happen nor is it necessary, its 45min to Gaw Central, you have 35km from there to Nurioopta with stops at only Lyndoch and Tanunda. Even at a crawling average speed of 35km/h from Gawl Central (we are now talking Narrow gauge speeds on through twisting mountain lines, hell a steam engine from Lanceston to Scotsdale does similar distance it in similar time), that 1h 45min.

Target 90min, 45min to Gaw Central, 42km, 45min to Nurioopta, 35km average 47km/h. Not alot different to interurban operations in other states.

- Tourist vs commuter
The answer here is simple. Neither are going to fly on their own and yes the two can be combined and successfully and done elsewhere. As I said before a private operator can add their carriage to the govt commuter service. One train, two standards, choose your price range for the travel.
Heritage stock is not suited to regular operations, if you want to run such services, then this is additional.

- How many million would it actually take, that is the big question?
Rebuild 3 stations to acceptable standards, single platform so no big dollars
The line is operated as basically a single long dead end, no passing, with only siding for works trains, so no costly signally.
- Rails likely ok, just need a grind,
- Big ticket item is 35km of likely 50% resleepering and ballasting
- Upgrade LX

- Electrification
NO! DMU's only

- Service operations (adjust as you see fit)
AM Valley -City Commuter Nuri say 7am, arrive city 8:30 for commuters, purely commuter arrangement.

AM City- Valley Mixed departs City say 8am to arrive in the valley around 9:30 am, Mixed train is 2 car 3000/3100 + Private carriage also likely refitted 3000/3100.

Midday return Nuri - City - Nuri by above mixed

PM Valley - City Mixed departs Nuri say 4pm arrives city by 5:30pm
PM City to Valley Commuter leaves say 5:15pm, arrive valley 6:45pm, stables overnight in secure yard.

If the private carriage thing doesn't work or only some days, fine, drop it when not needed.

Simple operation, lowest cost.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Having caught the train to Barossa, . . . .
"RTT_Rules"
When?
"Valvegear"


August 2000!
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
...

In every case it’s because the case is not viable.
Aaron
Yeah that's the nub of the problem isn't it - I've never thought that the Bluebirds were the best choice for a tourist train anyway, it should really have been something with some historical value (preferably steam). But then Adelaide station isn't suitable for steam any more and Keswick is a pain to get to - there's multiple things working against that route ever succeeding as a tourist train which is a shame.
"don_dunstan"


Steam won't work. Too far and needs to run too frequent to be viable funding 35km track from too few services.

Nothing wrong with the BlueBirds, once on the train its the inside the matters and the wine was flowing and I can assure you no one gived a F what generated the noise outside pushing us along. You could run steam on some weekends.

We stayed in Sth Terrence, never been to Adelaide before, no google maps, Adelaide Central or Keswick would not made the slightest bit of difference as we were picked up and caught taxi home.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
I have been on literally hundreds of wine tours, never once by train.
"Aaron"


Not everyone is the same, reversely my only wine tour was on a train (BWT) and the train is the added incentive to go. We were in Adelaide for my cousins wedding. Had the BWT not been available, I'm not sure we would have gone, maybe but my wife preferred the train ride up/back.

Question is there enough? and would there be sufficient commuter to justify this?
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
Well; everything's under control.  RTT went to the Barossa by train nearly 20 years ago and now, from his perch half way around the world, he can tell us how it's done today.  Amazing. What vision!
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Well; everything's under control.  RTT went to the Barossa by train nearly 20 years ago and now, from his perch half way around the world, he can tell us how it's done today.  Amazing. What vision!
"Valvegear"


Really ridiculous statement VG, if we were to expand your statement further, cancel the Glenelg tram we didn't use that again for 20 years, while we are at it lets cancel the Cairns - Kuranda train, that was 2003. Lets take your comments further, cancel the IP, Ghan, Katoomba Skyrail, most flights and most heritage rail and cruise ships as most people only go on them once in 10 years or less.
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
Yep; RTT knows it all; an answer completely full of irrelevancies. My statement does not need expanding.  Stick to the subject. We all know that you try to manipulate the subject to what you want it to be, but this subject is and remains the Barossa in 2020.
Trying to make a comparison by saying that we should cancel things that still exist today because you haven't used it in x years is the height of lunacy and would be laughed out of court.
I'll put it to you very simply. What you did in August 2000 is irrelevant to today's discussion because you can't do it today. It's not that it's unused; it's out of service and has been for years, so forget all of your red herrings.
People on the spot have looked at it, and the court has looked at it.  I'll take their observations on board and ignore your prattlings about something you haven't seen in 2020 and know nothing about in 2020.  As you are extremely fond of saying, let's move on!
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
I have been on literally hundreds of wine tours, never once by train.


Not everyone is the same, reversely my only wine tour was on a train (BWT) and the train is the added incentive to go. We were in Adelaide for my cousins wedding. Had the BWT not been available, I'm not sure we would have gone, maybe but my wife preferred the train ride up/back.
RTT_Rules
And there lies the difference, you went on one 20 years ago, and I have been on hundreds in 20 years. Careful, with admissions like yours we will have start calling you 'Vinelander 2' - the original likely thinks running the Overland to the Barossa would be a great idea. I think we can all understand that a business that sets itself up for people like yourself taking one trip in twenty years isn't going to survive too long - hang on, that's exactly what happened - The BWT didn't last!

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