High speed rail an 'economic game changer' for Wagga, Labor leader Albanese says

 
Topic moved from News by bevans on 14 Sep 2020 11:59
  freightgate Minister for Railways

Location: Albury, New South Wales
Sometimes I think higher speed passenger rail would be better deployed in NSW rather than Victoria. Although I would personally benefit from higher speed services from Albury to Melbourne I can see how many people would benefit from higher speed services in regional NsW not only to Sydney but to Canberra which is a better option for the southern parts of the state.

High speed rail an 'economic game changer' for Wagga, Labor leader Albanese says

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  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
Should more focus on removing the many Steam age alignments and getting the Intercity train journey times down to equivalent to driving journey time along the Hume Freeway.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Should more focus on removing the many Steam age alignments and getting the Intercity train journey times down to equivalent to driving journey time along the Hume Freeway.
"Nightfire"


Yep, for a fraction of the price, the existing line can be upgraded to a reason service that is worthy of a population of the southern region and improve the competitiveness of freight.

Sydney Wagga 6h, 470km = 80km/h, improve this to 120km/h =
  a6et Minister for Railways

Should more focus on removing the many Steam age alignments and getting the Intercity train journey times down to equivalent to driving journey time along the Hume Freeway.


Yep, for a fraction of the price, the existing line can be upgraded to a reason service that is worthy of a population of the southern region and improve the competitiveness of freight.

Sydney Wagga 6h, 470km = 80km/h, improve this to 120km/h =
RTT_Rules
This aspect has been discussed ad nauseum for more than a few years now and should be a priority.  Having the main lines at minimum speed of 120Km/h as you say RTT would cut a good amount of time of the TT, I still believe though that a capacity speed in areas that have the alingments for it should be 200km/h.

Going to a minimum of 120Km/h or perhaps 130Km/h could also help the freight task as well.  I still scratch my head regarding the amount of money spent on the last upgrades on the Bethungra Spiral, should have gotten rid of that old relic at the time.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Should more focus on removing the many Steam age alignments and getting the Intercity train journey times down to equivalent to driving journey time along the Hume Freeway.


Yep, for a fraction of the price, the existing line can be upgraded to a reason service that is worthy of a population of the southern region and improve the competitiveness of freight.

Sydney Wagga 6h, 470km = 80km/h, improve this to 120km/h =
RTT_Rules
This aspect has been discussed ad nauseum for more than a few years now and should be a priority.  Having the main lines at minimum speed of 120Km/h as you say RTT would cut a good amount of time of the TT, I still believe though that a capacity speed in areas that have the alingments for it should be 200km/h.

Going to a minimum of 120Km/h or perhaps 130Km/h could also help the freight task as well.  I still scratch my head regarding the amount of money spent on the last upgrades on the Bethungra Spiral, should have gotten rid of that old relic at the time.
"a6et"


Hi,
My previous post was trimmed by the RP bug that seems to happen from time to time.

It was 120km/h average which is the same average speed for Vienna to Salzburg. Top end speed would be sub 200km/h (without being specific to what that number actually is, but average speed  of 120km/h, roughly the maximum for MSR technology and trains are still able to mix with freight.

Agree, its not hard, just start at Macurthur and move south in 100km blocks of track. Project would take about 6-8years to reach Broadmeadows in Vic.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Remove some of the diversions, duplicate more of the track and remove level crossings so the XPT can travel at 160km/h in Victoria and you could remove a couple of hours without spending much at all.
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
Remove some of the diversions, duplicate more of the track and remove level crossings so the XPT can travel at 160km/h in Victoria and you could remove a couple of hours without spending much at all.
simstrain
Why limit it to just Victoria? Why not all over the country?
  dthead Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
My view with high speed it is to the majot centers non - stop. Addd one stop - factor in time to slow, time to deal with passengers, then time to to return to speed. Then th more stops you add the slower the train becomes. If the "fast train stops all stations" it becomes a  a slightly faster XPT and everyone will say another stuff up.

We see this effect with the velocitys Melbourne to Bendigo. the times are getting longer as every town get a  station stop to be part of the great new train service. So the trip takes longer now and is full  ( in normal times )

Of course a  non stop express and the slower all stop scene if it works is better. And fast trains can be fast freight too.

Fixing the existing alignment will be hard and equally as expensive in doing  "that high speed line" - to make the hard decisons as to what new alignments are great.  Divert the Railway fromAlbury to Yass bypassing Wagga ?  Bypassing many other towns? Throwing the station so far out of town people will not use it ?

Lots to work out. And because it cannot fit into a election cycle, well the "too hard basket" is full of these proposals.
Doing  "minor" - major diversions will be good in actuality as most have said.

Regards,
David Head
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
My view with high speed it is to the majot centers non - stop. Addd one stop - factor in time to slow, time to deal with passengers, then time to to return to speed. Then th more stops you add the slower the train becomes. If the "fast train stops all stations" it becomes a  a slightly faster XPT and everyone will say another stuff up.

We see this effect with the velocitys Melbourne to Bendigo. the times are getting longer as every town get a  station stop to be part of the great new train service. So the trip takes longer now and is full  ( in normal times )

Of course a  non stop express and the slower all stop scene if it works is better. And fast trains can be fast freight too.

Fixing the existing alignment will be hard and equally as expensive in doing  "that high speed line" - to make the hard decisons as to what new alignments are great.  Divert the Railway fromAlbury to Yass bypassing Wagga ?  Bypassing many other towns? Throwing the station so far out of town people will not use it ?

Lots to work out. And because it cannot fit into a election cycle, well the "too hard basket" is full of these proposals.
Doing  "minor" - major diversions will be good in actuality as most have said.

Regards,
David Head
"dthead"


High Speed lines are significantly more expensive to build than lines rated to 160-180km/h. Hell look at Qld, it runs 160k's on skinny gauge built on concrete sleepers using improved alignment. Cannot imagine the TGV running at 300km/h on the same budget spent per km.

Town by-passes are necessary when it avoids running through a dozen of more LX and over/under passes are simply not practical if you want the trains to operate with speed. Unless you live within a few hundred metres of the station, a car is automatically involved.

I think if you look at NSW, the whole election cycle thing is a myth when it comes to PT. If construction is underway, then thats almost as good as it operating come election time, especially if your job is linked to construction.

On the Victorian side, the required upgrade to 200km/h isn't complicated, on the NSW side it will involve alot of bull dozers, but mostly lower cost farming land with the odd big ticket item. Keep the cost down and aim for 90% duplication so that tunnels and bridges are cheaper.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Remove some of the diversions, duplicate more of the track and remove level crossings so the XPT can travel at 160km/h in Victoria and you could remove a couple of hours without spending much at all.
Why limit it to just Victoria? Why not all over the country?
railblogger

I mentioned Victoria because my understanding is that the level crossings limit the track speed to 130km/h on the SG for some reason. Obviously the current track condition also limits this speed as well. It might be difficult in some areas and quite expensive to do it everywhere in regional Australia.
  NSWGR8022 Deputy Commissioner

Location: From the lands of Journalism and Free Speech
Should more focus on removing the many Steam age alignments and getting the Intercity train journey times down to equivalent to driving journey time along the Hume Freeway.
Nightfire

Any project to provide higher speed trains between Wagga Wagga and Sydney would surely include removing the windy tracks enroute to 160 km/h running

What is the current maximium speed between Wagga and Cambertown as an average anyone know?
  Ethan1395 Train Controller

Location: An OSCar H Set
High speed rail will NOT be an economic stimulus, you have to ask a few questions:

-Will high speed rail create a significant about of permanent jobs outside of capital cities?
-Will high speed rail make places outside of capital cities move liveable?*
-Will high speed rail be an affordable mode of transportation?
-Will high speed rail give people a choice of where they can live by allowing them to commute to a capital city*

*you probably think the answer to these two questions is 'yes' but you need to think how job applications work - apply for a job in a city you don't live in and it goes through an automated filter and applications of those with addresses outside of said city are thrown out - and this will happen high speed rail or no high speed rail.
High speed rail may allow some people who already have work in capital cities to move out and work from home further away, but it will not create new employment outside of the capital cities.

If we want economic stimulus outside of capital cities, places outside of capital cities need their own local employment opportunities and local infrastructure (for example, public transport in places large enough to support it).

By all means do everything that a6et, RTT_Rules, and simstrain have suggested and remove the 19th century steam alignments and create a faster journey for passenger AND freight services - but don't expect economic stimulus outside of the capital cities.
For that matter, I believe a 6 hour rail journey between Sydney and Melbourne or Sydney and Brisbane could be competitive with flying and driving if the price was right (needs to be consistent and half the cost of flying, and equal to the cost of driving).
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Fixing the existing alignment will be hard and equally as expensive in doing  "that high speed line" - to make the hard decisons as to what new alignments are great.  Divert the Railway fromAlbury to Yass bypassing Wagga ?  Bypassing many other towns? Throwing the station so far out of town people will not use it ?

Lots to work out. And because it cannot fit into a election cycle, well the "too hard basket" is full of these proposals.
Doing  "minor" - major diversions will be good in actuality as most have said.

Regards,
David Head
dthead


When we talk about fixing the alignment we are not talking about wholesale major redirection of the line. We are talking about straightening the line along it's current alignment to remove all the deviations and multiple loops allowing for a higher average speed. One example I will make is the piece of track from Cootamundra to Wallendbeen. The track deviates way out of the way instead of following Olympic drive. Just places like this where the track was diverted for steam could be fixed for modern diesel electric.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
High speed rail will NOT be an economic stimulus, you have to ask a few questions:

-Will high speed rail create a significant about of permanent jobs outside of capital cities?
-Will high speed rail make places outside of capital cities move liveable?*
-Will high speed rail be an affordable mode of transportation?
-Will high speed rail give people a choice of where they can live by allowing them to commute to a capital city*

*you probably think the answer to these two questions is 'yes' but you need to think how job applications work - apply for a job in a city you don't live in and it goes through an automated filter and applications of those with addresses outside of said city are thrown out - and this will happen high speed rail or no high speed rail.
High speed rail may allow some people who already have work in capital cities to move out and work from home further away, but it will not create new employment outside of the capital cities.

If we want economic stimulus outside of capital cities, places outside of capital cities need their own local employment opportunities and local infrastructure (for example, public transport in places large enough to support it).

By all means do everything that a6et, RTT_Rules, and simstrain have suggested and remove the 19th century steam alignments and create a faster journey for passenger AND freight services - but don't expect economic stimulus outside of the capital cities.
For that matter, I believe a 6 hour rail journey between Sydney and Melbourne or Sydney and Brisbane could be competitive with flying and driving if the price was right (needs to be consistent and half the cost of flying, and equal to the cost of driving).
"Ethan1395"


HSR is not a commuter service, the subsidy would be huge.

I'll save the govt more money by moving out in the sticks and may me half the subsidy not to travel. Job available in city the city for someone else, govt saves huge amount of capital and operating cost and I'm living happily in rural area supporting the local community.

The private sector runs the numbers are establishes their business where it suits the owners either personally or financially.

The govt sector can and is relocating some services to regional areas, but not all are suited to be out of city placed, but as the govt sector is only a minor employer in the bigger picture these days, there is only so much they can do.
  Lockspike Deputy Commissioner

Raising speeds to, say mostly 150 - 200km/h will only provide an enhanced pensioner express.
It will still be too slow to entice most out of the skies.
It will still be too slow for true overnight interstate freight.
Just how much faster do rocks and seeds need to get to their ships?

High Speed Rail? - Do it properly or just don't bother, after all, flying is such a pleasant experience
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Should more focus on removing the many Steam age alignments and getting the Intercity train journey times down to equivalent to driving journey time along the Hume Freeway.
Nightfire

Any project to provide higher speed trains between Wagga Wagga and Sydney would surely include removing the windy tracks enroute to 160 km/h running

What is the current maximium speed between Wagga and Cambertown as an average anyone know?
"NSWGR8022"


Train time = 5.5h
Road distance is 405 km
Rail distance is 480 km

Average speed over rail is 87 km/h (not too shabby)
Should the railway follow the road and the train at same speed, then trip time would be less than 4.5h.

Should the average rail speed following the road be increased to an average of 120km/h then the trip time is just under 3.5h.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Raising speeds to, say mostly 150 - 200km/h will only provide an enhanced pensioner express.
It will still be too slow to entice most out of the skies.
It will still be too slow for true overnight interstate freight.
Just how much faster do rocks and seeds need to get to their ships?

High Speed Rail? - Do it properly or just don't bother, after all, flying is such a pleasant experience
"Lockspike"


That's a big no from me.

HSR is marginal for inter-capital traffic with exception of Syd-Can and alot of money just to offer the same time service (at best) on a lessor frequency requiring a subsidy where as normally the airlines are self funding. The HSR network will always be limited to BNE - Mel.

The market to be got is regional and HSR isn't needed nor justified for this. However improve the standard of the rail service, frequency, travel time and onboard services and you will compete for the sub 500km market easily as well as boost some numbers on through travel.
  Lockspike Deputy Commissioner

Raising speeds to, say mostly 150 - 200km/h will only provide an enhanced pensioner express.
It will still be too slow to entice most out of the skies.
It will still be too slow for true overnight interstate freight.
Just how much faster do rocks and seeds need to get to their ships?

High Speed Rail? - Do it properly or just don't bother, after all, flying is such a pleasant experience
That's a big no from me.

HSR is marginal for inter-capital traffic with exception of Syd-Can and alot of money just to offer the same time service (at best) on a lessor frequency requiring a subsidy where as normally the airlines are self funding. The HSR network will always be limited to BNE - Mel.

The market to be got is regional and HSR isn't needed nor justified for this. However improve the standard of the rail service, frequency, travel time and onboard services and you will compete for the sub 500km market easily as well as boost some numbers on through travel.
RTT_Rules
You just might have a point for regional services, but only up to an absolute maximum journey time of 3 hours.
  a6et Minister for Railways

Fixing the existing alignment will be hard and equally as expensive in doing  "that high speed line" - to make the hard decisons as to what new alignments are great.  Divert the Railway fromAlbury to Yass bypassing Wagga ?  Bypassing many other towns? Throwing the station so far out of town people will not use it ?

Lots to work out. And because it cannot fit into a election cycle, well the "too hard basket" is full of these proposals.
Doing  "minor" - major diversions will be good in actuality as most have said.

Regards,
David Head


When we talk about fixing the alignment we are not talking about wholesale major redirection of the line. We are talking about straightening the line along it's current alignment to remove all the deviations and multiple loops allowing for a higher average speed. One example I will make is the piece of track from Cootamundra to Wallendbeen. The track deviates way out of the way instead of following Olympic drive. Just places like this where the track was diverted for steam could be fixed for modern diesel electric.
simstrain

Spot on Sims regarding the Coota Wallendbeen section, but its just one of many that could be fixed in similar fashion. This one would be a good start, then continue through to Bethungra. South of there are some kinks in the line that could be taken out as well. With decent planning there are quite a few others that need to fixed.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Raising speeds to, say mostly 150 - 200km/h will only provide an enhanced pensioner express.
It will still be too slow to entice most out of the skies.
It will still be too slow for true overnight interstate freight.
Just how much faster do rocks and seeds need to get to their ships?

High Speed Rail? - Do it properly or just don't bother, after all, flying is such a pleasant experience
That's a big no from me.

HSR is marginal for inter-capital traffic with exception of Syd-Can and alot of money just to offer the same time service (at best) on a lessor frequency requiring a subsidy where as normally the airlines are self funding. The HSR network will always be limited to BNE - Mel.
t
The market to be got is regional and HSR isn't needed nor justified for this. However improve the standard of the rail service, frequency, travel time and onboard services and you will compete for the sub 500km market easily as well as boost some numbers on through travel.
RTT_Rules
You just might have a point for regional services, but only up to an absolute maximum journey time of 3 hours.
"Lockspike"


3h? No. 3h is still within the bounds of the old Cityrail.

Wagga, Dubbo, Casino/Lismore, Armidale/Moree and most point s between these and Sydney have no or limited airline service. This is teh bulk of the market. Of course North and South of these limits you have the opposite flow towards BNE or Mel,  so while numbers from capital to capital are low, this doesn't mean a capital to capital service isn't viable.
  62440 Chief Commissioner

For interest, when the Perth Kalgoorlie upgrade was modelled, we looked at 200 km/h and the limiting factor was level crossings, they are certainly not cheap to get rid of, even for minor dirt roads. There is only one decent section capable of running at a worthwhile distance at 200 km/h. Comparing with overseas, the limit adopted was 160 km/h at level crossings and the Prossys were designed for that even though they are capable of 200 km/h. Curves and level crossings are the key design limits, momentum grades for high speeds, 200+ reduce earthworks, but the grades would be too steep for long freight trains. VFT was designed with momentum grades.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
For interest, when the Perth Kalgoorlie upgrade was modelled, we looked at 200 km/h and the limiting factor was level crossings, they are certainly not cheap to get rid of, even for minor dirt roads. There is only one decent section capable of running at a worthwhile distance at 200 km/h. Comparing with overseas, the limit adopted was 160 km/h at level crossings and the Prossys were designed for that even though they are capable of 200 km/h. Curves and level crossings are the key design limits, momentum grades for high speeds, 200+ reduce earthworks, but the grades would be too steep for long freight trains. VFT was designed with momentum grades.
"62440"


Interesting.

The different standards applied by each of the states doesn't help.

Qld seems to be of the-mindset that +100km/h across an unprotected crossing, even a rarely used farm gate is not acceptable. As the legacy maximise speed was 100km/h prior to the RTT/CTT, it would seem to appear they are sticking with what they know, rather than looking at practicality. This 100km/h limit, at times for just 10m, but of course the whole train must pass at 100km/h, would be limiting the options on the timetable.

For Syd - Mel, the route is a bit different to NQ/FNQ and Eastern WA with a larger intermediate population and busier roads etc, the passenger traffic potential is certainly more. I think in this case its easier to justify the expense. The line would be built to be suitable for freighters and MSR. Without doing the calcs it likely possible to maintain average of 120km/h with limited or no sections > 160km/h, including station stops. A job for later tonight maybe.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Getting in and out of Melbourne takes long enough as well. If an alternative solution was found here that could remove 30 minutes to the trip.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Getting in and out of Melbourne takes long enough as well. If an alternative solution was found here that could remove 30 minutes to the trip.
"simstrain"


While there is certainly time lost in burb's its also much more expensive to fix and bang for buck should focus on the rural areas removing S-bends and other time wasting routes through mostly low cost farm land. When the train is running 120km/h average Campbelltown to Broadmeadow, then look at the big ticket items.

Note, same issue will apply to HSR and more so as to achieve sub 3h Syd to Mel, they need to retain high speed up to within 5km of the terminus, or more than likely the termini will be relocated away from the CBD stations to save $10B's.
  justarider Deputy Commissioner

Location: Bored at home
Getting in and out of Melbourne takes long enough as well. If an alternative solution was found here that could remove 30 minutes to the trip.
simstrain
WOT?

40 minutes SCS to Craigieburn, and your gunna chop off 30.

26km in 10 minutes, average 160kph. Wow!

Edit: pre-covid the 14:32 down arrives Craigieburn in 27 minutes. Startrek has now invented a Transporter with time-shift.

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