Mobile phones and rail accidents. Any??

 
  jmaca88 Beginner

Hi all.
    First time poster after many years of hiding in the background. I apologise in advance if I have posted this in the incorrect area.

I am conducting a study for uni and require any sources that lead to accidents that have been caused by train/rail crews using mobile phones. Preferably the accidents would be Australian.

Many thanks for your help in advance.

Kind regards,

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  42101 Banned

Location: Banned
Hmmm
Funny how all these types of questions are always for a Uni study/school project isnt it.....ever thought of just checking ATSB/ITSR/Workcover sites. Rolling Eyes
  seb2351 Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
Hi all.
    First time poster after many years of hiding in the background. I apologise in advance if I have posted this in the incorrect area.

I am conducting a study for uni and require any sources that lead to accidents that have been caused by train/rail crews using mobile phones. Preferably the accidents would be Australian.

Many thanks for your help in advance.

Kind regards,
"jmaca88"


I cant think off the top of my head of Australian ones, but thanks to a big accident in the states a couple of years ago the NSW regulator has reccommended restricitions be placed on the use of mobile phones by train crews.

If you wanted to look at this further, some good places to look at would be
Independant Transport Safety Regulator (ITSR)
Office of Transport Safety
Australian Transport Safety Burea

(Just taking the edge off 42101's post)

US story I refered to
  X_Class Junior Train Controller

Location: Hunter Valley
Great.... Another uni study on train drivers... Rolling Eyes

I think you'll find very little evidence of mobile use contributing to incidents.
  Junction box Chief Commissioner

Location: newy
Nil, its not like there are regular train accidents every week, maybe the road traffic could learn off the railway.
  hornetfig Assistant Commissioner

Nil, its not like there are regular train accidents every week.
"Junction box"


This is true.

How about incidents then? SPADs for example. jmaca88, you may be able to use FOI (well GIPA but FOI sounds better) to extract information from RailCorp (and only RailCorp) about incidents (rather than accidents leading to an investigation by ITSR) involving phones. Any such matters would have been handled internally.
  heisdeadjim Chief Commissioner

Just a thought. How manu univerities are open the wek before Christmas?

Edit. I'll try that again.

Just a thought. How many universities are open the week before Christmas?

Me. Type. Fail Smile
  42101 Banned

Location: Banned
Just a thought. How manu univerities are open the wek before Christmas?
"heisdeadjim"


Exactly right mate and its only asking about NSW and there be a election getting close too.....im calling it a media hack yet again. Rolling EyesEvil or Very Mad

How dumb do these idiots think we are not to see through them every bloody time. Evil or Very MadEvil or Very MadEvil or Very Mad
  seb2351 Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
Mobiles causing SPADS? I have never seen a mobile cause a SPAD. I have heard overseas of operators becoming distracted due to a mobile however. I ask you to look at the data of road users using mobiles and train crew, and see what the accident ratios are.

The vast majority of train crew know when to use a phone and when not to. The idea that mobile phones cause SPAD's is a management knee jerk reaction to an incident that was caused by a distracted driver.
  newington Chief Commissioner

Location: Here, very occasionally.
Just a thought. How manu univerities are open the wek before Christmas?
"heisdeadjim"


Exactly right mate and its only asking about NSW and there be a election getting close too.....im calling it a media hack yet again. Rolling EyesEvil or Very Mad

How dumb do these idiots think we are not to see through them every bloody time. Evil or Very MadEvil or Very MadEvil or Very Mad
"42101"


I dunno 42101, he seems to have been around for 6 years, but I'll take your word for it anyway Smile
  wongm GEEWONG

Location: Geelong, Victoria
Just a thought. How many universities are open the week before Christmas?
"heisdeadjim"

Students working on Masters and PhD projects? My mate doing a PhD takes a holiday whenever he feels like it... Laughing
  heisdeadjim Chief Commissioner

Okay. Methinks a Masters or PhD would beyond the stage of asking such an introductory question this time of year?

Look, it's entirely possible I'm wrong. But after the BS we had to put up with in the recent Victorian State Election, I'm somewhat wary.
  michinyon Chief Commissioner

Just a thought. How manu univerities are open the wek before Christmas?


They all are.   They might have finished most of the undergraduate teaching for the year,   but the postgraduate research students, foreign students, students for courses outside the normal annual schedule and staff are still all there.
Well they were last week.  Maybe not next week.
  TheLoadedDog The Ghost of George Stephenson

I would suggest that rail accidents, whilst not rare, are too infrequent for you to be able to collate any statistically meaningful data.  You might want to try industrial accidents generally:  train drivers, forklift drivers, machine operators, farmers, pilots, masters of boats and ships.  I'm assuming you're comparing this to road accidents?
  petan Chief Commissioner

Location: Waiting to see a zebra using a zebra crossing!
I am conducting a study for uni and require any sources that lead to accidents that have been caused by train/rail crews using mobile phones. Preferably the accidents would be Australian.
Kind regards,
"jmaca88"

You really are analysing accidents caused by the driver answering calls on radio/electronic device. The fact that some of those calls from the boss or head office may come via a mobile phone should not be the point as the boss [regional controller] can use other electronic devices to contact the mobile crew driver and thus distract the driver who at the time is busy with driving in a hectic situation.

Think of the two way radio as fitted in train cabs and all emergency vehicles such as police, ambulance and fire brigade.

Consider the police driver with lights and sirens on as he/she races to a bank robbery etc. Not all police and ambulance are two person cars, although most are I suspect.  

That single person emergency vehicle as described above [police etc] has a high chance of being involved in a motor vehicle crash if the local controller calls the driver on the two way radio just as the driver is approaching a traffic light that is red and the driver is attempting to stop and then go through the red lights via the sirens etc
  jmaca88 Beginner

Thankyou to those who have been of help.

I posted in the NSW section because I live here but I couldn’t care less if the accident comes from Timbuktu! I'm sorry if I have set your conspiracy thoughts into motion.

Study is based on the possibility of a mobile phone being a primary cause in the downing of AnsettNZ flight 703. I am arguing that the use of personal phones on the rails and the roads can have serious effects too.  The ATSB makes mention of possible mobile phone use just before the tilt train left the rails.

Most uni's do not close down over christmas.
  lsrailfan Chief Commissioner

Location: Somewhere you're not
don't worry mate- there are some on here who get a bit edgy- they bite first and ask questions later
  lsrailfan Chief Commissioner

Location: Somewhere you're not
Whilst it is possible that it could happen- I would like to think that it would be highly inprobable that it would happen - Because when the driver is on the phone- He could still see the signals and apply the brakes if neccessary

Kind Regards
  KRviator Moderator

Location: Up the front
Study is based on the possibility of a mobile phone being a primary cause in the downing of AnsettNZ flight 703. I am arguing that the use of personal phones on the rails and the roads can have serious effects too.
"jmaca88"
You mean the one where the NZ Police attempted to withold evidence in order to convict the Captain of ANZ703, by not disclosing the possiblity of a telephone call that could have affected the aircraft's GPS and this its' GPWS system?

Or you mean the ANZ703 accident where the manufacturer of the aircraft's avionics declared there was no possibility of such a phone interfering with the aircraft systems?

ANZ703 flew into the side of a hill because the crew lost situational awareness and left the power levers at a lower setting than needed for the descent profile that was required - and as a result, they flew a perfectly servicable aircraft into the side of a hill. Mobile phones played no part in the accident, or the leadup to it - but then, if you'd bothered to read the TAIC report into the crash, you'd know this already, wouldn't you? Rolling Eyes

The ATSB makes mention of possible mobile phone use just before the tilt train left the rails.
"jmaca88"
That's right. They DO make mention of it. BY DISCOUNTING THE POSSIBILITY OF IT BEING A FACTOR. Evil or Very Mad

No radio messages were recorded as having been transmitted or received by VCQ5. On that night the driver had left his mobile phone with his wife and there is no evidence of any mobile phone traffic to either driver. The probability of any external distraction is therefore remote.
"The Queensland Transport Accident Report"


Before you attempt to use past accidents as justification for your research - whatever its' for - at least have the decency to actually read the official reports for the accidents you're citing, eh?
  ButFli Chief Train Controller

Location: New Farm, Qld
Whilst it is possible that it could happen- I would like to think that it would be highly inprobable that it would happen - Because when the driver is on the phone- He could still see the signals and apply the brakes if neccessary

Kind Regards
"lsrailfan"


Yeah, I don't think the issue is with mobile phones physically stopping a train driver/car driver/pilot controlling their vehicle. The issue is they can be distracting. A train driver can see a red signal and they can apply the brakes if they are on the phone. That doesn't mean that they will.
  seb2351 Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
Whilst it is possible that it could happen- I would like to think that it would be highly inprobable that it would happen - Because when the driver is on the phone- He could still see the signals and apply the brakes if neccessary

Kind Regards
"lsrailfan"


Yeah, I don't think the issue is with mobile phones physically stopping a train driver/car driver/pilot controlling their vehicle. The issue is they can be distracting. A train driver can see a red signal and they can apply the brakes if they are on the phone. That doesn't mean that they will.
"ButFli"


Distracting like answering the train radio? Like answering a Passenger Emergency Call? Like a fault flashing up on your screen?
  Johnmc Moderator

Location: Cloncurry, Queensland
Going through the "Working as a train driver" thread, I saw this blog.

http://www.bhatt.id.au/blog/what-is-it-like-to-work-as-a-train-driver/

One of the questions asked refers to the use of mobile phones on trains, it might be relevant to this thread. Smile
  petan Chief Commissioner

Location: Waiting to see a zebra using a zebra crossing!
jmaca88,  what is your response to my statement that two way radios in police cars can cause the same distraction as mobile phones to the driver in a stressful situation in the middle of heavy traffic?

jmaca88, I assume you realise bus drivers in major population areas have two way radios which the base controller can use to call the driver and thus distract the driver in a similar way to the police driver being distracted by the supervisor calling.

Thankyou to those who have been of help.

I posted in the NSW section because I live here but I couldn’t care less if the accident comes from Timbuktu! I'm sorry if I have set your conspiracy thoughts into motion.

Study is based on the possibility of a mobile phone being a primary cause in the downing of AnsettNZ flight 703. I am arguing that the use of personal phones on the rails and the roads can have serious effects too.  The ATSB makes mention of possible mobile phone use just before the tilt train left the rails.

Most uni's do not close down over christmas.
"jmaca88"
  jmaca88 Beginner

This seems to be getting a little ugly now. But I appreciate the respectful comments, opinions and help from the majority. Thankyou.

KRviator, I respect where you are coming from and reflecting back upon my posts I understand that they are vague. I am very well aware of what the official outcomes were for both the NZ and tilt train accidents, however I have chosen these because of the opinions leading up to the official conclusions.

I work in aviation so I see, read and hear my fair share of incidences whereby mobile phones have played some role in a "bad day". These could be as mundane as tripping over a rock due to inattention or as serious as being ingested into an engine. This is true for those of you who work on the railways. My intention is to "pick" your knowledge as I'm sure you can expand on what is already published.

I'm not in a position to lay blame, extend rumours, myths or plague your industry with bias. All I am seeking is FACTS. Going back to the tilt train, was the official report published stating a mobile phone? Yes! Does anyone claim that it caused the accident? No! However I want to know how it fell under the umbrella of suspicion and how it was discounted.

Thankyou again to those who have replied with good intentions.
  seb2351 Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
This seems to be getting a little ugly now. But I appreciate the respectful comments, opinions and help from the majority. Thankyou.

KRviator, I respect where you are coming from and reflecting back upon my posts I understand that they are vague. I am very well aware of what the official outcomes were for both the NZ and tilt train accidents, however I have chosen these because of the opinions leading up to the official conclusions.

I work in aviation so I see, read and hear my fair share of incidences whereby mobile phones have played some role in a "bad day". These could be as mundane as tripping over a rock due to inattention or as serious as being ingested into an engine. This is true for those of you who work on the railways. My intention is to "pick" your knowledge as I'm sure you can expand on what is already published.

I'm not in a position to lay blame, extend rumours, myths or plague your industry with bias. All I am seeking is FACTS. Going back to the tilt train, was the official report published stating a mobile phone? Yes! Does anyone claim that it caused the accident? No! However I want to know how it fell under the umbrella of suspicion and how it was discounted.

Thankyou again to those who have replied with good intentions.
"jmaca88"


I am curious now. I listed a few other in cab distractions which commonly occur, yet your doing your paper on only 1 of them, and on the one which has been blamed the least amount of times in this country. What made you focus on that particularly distraction, why not the whole range of variables that leads to a driver getting distracted?
Is the paper only going to be looking at incidents which result in accidents, or will it focus on a range of safety breaches like SPAD's, misreading paperwork and entering area without authority etc...

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