Retiring of the 2000 class Railcars

 
  Railnthusiast Chief Commissioner

Location: At the computer

If you want to see more steam locomotives running at SteamRanger stop bitching about it and sign up to become a volunteer in the workshop.


Instead of sitting behind your keyboard moaning about how the steam trains aren't running and how Steamranger shouldn't procure more diesels/railcards just be grateful that Steamranger is still operating so you can see the steam trains running.


"ARK95"

Umm, actually I am  a volunteer for SteamRanger both on track and in the depot.
Edit; I also believe that my arguments are well structured with background knowledge of the group.

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  Black Hoppers Chief Train Controller

Location: Banned

If you want to see more steam locomotives running at SteamRanger stop bitching about it and sign up to become a volunteer in the workshop.


Instead of sitting behind your keyboard moaning about how the steam trains aren't running and how Steamranger shouldn't procure more diesels/railcards just be grateful that Steamranger is still operating so you can see the steam trains running.


"ARK95"

Umm, actually I am a volunteer for SteamRanger both on track and in the depot.
"Railnthusiast"


Well then you best hope that Steamranger managment do not read this thread of your complaints about their customer service and venomous complaining about Steamranger in general as if they do you certainly will be a ex depot and track worker.
  Railnthusiast Chief Commissioner

Location: At the computer
SteamRanger fully understand my concerns, I have actively taken action, and it is really an issue that has to be seen to be understood. I have exchanged letters, attended meetings, done fundraising, initiated small projects and I only wish I could do more.
I agree perfectly well that putting my thoughts onto an internet forum is not going to get very far.
I suppose we agree to disagree, and I quite rightfully agree with you that I have to be careful, and bagging SteamRanger is not going to put either me or SteamRanger in a good position. As a result I probably should sensibly disengage myself for this thread, and if you would like to hear more on my side of the argument, I am perfectly happy to speak to you via PM.

In summary, there are genuine issues in SteamRanger, and my thoughts need to be taken into perspective with the views and opinions of SteamRanger management and the views and opinions of others. I m fully aware that the factual information I state is naturally biased towards my argument.

  monday Chief Commissioner

I would suggest people should try to work positively with those in the society, accepting that it is ultimately that 'group decisions' are the ones that get made, and at the end of the day, it is only a hobby...  Its not worth stressing or taking it too personally.
  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".

You are right Monday and most gunzels do not want to know about all the paperwork etc that has to be done just to let a train run for them these days. It takes months sometimes to organize an event or events etc and there is more to it than running a train on the day!

 

Most do not appreciate what goes on behind the scenes at places like Steamranger, NRM, PRR or other places just so you can go for a ride or photograph the train. It takes a lot of hard Yakka just to get it there and then you can still find that something might go wrong. Stop and think about all the people in the back rooms that actually spend long, long hours organising things to make a success of a day or an event. You should all try it sometime it is not an easy job by a country mile.

I get involved as much as I can at the NRM and every little bit helps, so if more actually get into places and do some work, more will get done quickly hopefully. Nearly all are dedicated volunteer's and I dip's my hat to all of them, they do a superb job for no recognition in most cases.


  monday Chief Commissioner

I would also add if you do enjoy volunteering at a TR, thats great - do the things that make you happy and fill you with a sense of reward.  Dont make the mistake of getting bogged down in the things you potentially cant change - all it does is burn up energy, detract from the enjoyment and give you brain hurt for no gain!
  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".
Yep could not agree more with your last post Monday but might add just a bit to it.  One person can never overide the will of the member's in any club or association etc. The whole thing has to be democratic and the club or association in control of it's member's. Note I said Member's not one person. This is law by the way it has nothing to do with constitutions or rules etc.
  Brian 2009 Chief Commissioner

Location: N.S.W.
Gidday,
Seems this thread has gone off track ( pardon the pun )
Thought it was about "Retiring of the 2000 class Railcars"
Regards,
Brian Leedham.
  steam4ian Chief Commissioner

Gidday,
Seems this thread has gone off track ( pardon the pun )
Thought it was about "Retiring of the 2000 class Railcars"
Regards,
Brian Leedham.
"Brian 2009"


Brian

Regarding going off track, as from today so are the 2000 class Jumbos.

Is there some ill-founded, financially destitute rail system or scheme we can wish them on?

I have suggested elsewhere that the elephants grave yard is the place for them.

For all that they were a step up from the Red Hens, probably an even greater step than that between the Red Hens and the Brills.

The Red Hens matched Adelaides service needs, the 2000s did not. Over powered and over weigth as two cars, underpowered as three cars.

IMHO the plusses for the 2000s were the air con, powered doors, PA, Air-ride suspension AND the raised cab.

Down side, the mass, repeat, the mass, the small windows, the claustrophobic interior of the power car, the generator in what could be passenger space.

At the time Adelaide would have been better served by building loco hauled cars for push pull service for use on the peak hour trains only. If you look at the specification for the 2000 class that's what STA were trying to achieve. The push/pull system works well in the USA. With the standard cars you need a few driving cab (only) cars complete with underfloor generator for the train air con; controls have to match the locos.

Thankfully they learned some lessons and for all the objections the 3000s match the systems needs. I only hope the new electrics are as effective.

Regards
Ian
  Brian 2009 Chief Commissioner

Location: N.S.W.
Gidday,
Seems this thread has gone off track ( pardon the pun )
Thought it was about "Retiring of the 2000 class Railcars"
Regards,
Brian Leedham.
"Brian 2009"


Brian

Regarding going off track, as from today so are the 2000 class Jumbos.

Is there some ill-founded, financially destitute rail system or scheme we can wish them on?

I have suggested elsewhere that the elephants grave yard is the place for them.

For all that they were a step up from the Red Hens, probably an even greater step than that between the Red Hens and the Brills.

The Red Hens matched Adelaides service needs, the 2000s did not. Over powered and over weigth as two cars, underpowered as three cars.

IMHO the plusses for the 2000s were the air con, powered doors, PA, Air-ride suspension AND the raised cab.

Down side, the mass, repeat, the mass, the small windows, the claustrophobic interior of the power car, the generator in what could be passenger space.

At the time Adelaide would have been better served by building loco hauled cars for push pull service for use on the peak hour trains only. If you look at the specification for the 2000 class that's what STA were trying to achieve. The push/pull system works well in the USA. With the standard cars you need a few driving cab (only) cars complete with underfloor generator for the train air con; controls have to match the locos.

Thankfully they learned some lessons and for all the objections the 3000s match the systems needs. I only hope the new electrics are as effective.

Regards
Ian
"steam4ian"

Ian,
Thanks for the great post.
As far as I know the new Electric Railcars will be far superior.
But I suppose the question is, did the 2000 class serve their purpose, they have been operational since the early 80's, travelled a lot of kilometres in that time and are still going.

Are they now going to be used only for the Gawler line, or will they be used else where as well.
Regards,
Brian Leedham.
  alcoworldseries Deputy Commissioner

Location: Auburn
Ian I think this line sums it up best, quote; For all that they were a step up from the Red Hens, probably an even greater step than that between the Red Hens and the Brills.

If and I say if the Jumbo's gone they have served Adelaide pretty well for 32 years, but I still suggest there's life in the old girls yet, if continued use wasn't planned for why has a regular maintenace/upgrade program continued for Jumbo's, I believe 2011 has just been in the shops for work, the current govt cops plenty of flack but I very much doubt if the private maintenance providor (Bombardier) would do work that would cost them money for little or no reason.

I have yet to see any concrete delivery/commissioning timeframe for the replacement 4000's.
  hosk1956 Deputy Commissioner

Location: no where near gunzels
 I believe 2011 has just been in the shops for work, the current govt cops plenty of flack but I very much doubt if the private maintenance providor (Bombardier) would do work that would cost them money for little or no reason.
"alcoworldseries"



2011 is still in the workshop for work, it hasn't returned to traffic and I would hazard a guess and say it won't.

Wayne
  Jumbo2001 Junior Train Controller

I believe 2011 has just been in the shops for work, the current govt cops plenty of flack but I very much doubt if the private maintenance providor (Bombardier) would do work that would cost them money for little or no reason.
"alcoworldseries"



2011 is still in the workshop for work, it hasn't returned to traffic and I would hazard a guess and say it won't.

Wayne
"hosk1956"


2011 wont come back into traffic. Its traction bogies for lack of better terms, are completely worn out and there are no replacements in existence. As such it has become a source of spare parts for the rest of the 2000/2100 fleet. 

Also Jumbos will still be used during the shut down, one set of Jumbos will be stabled at Gawler Mon-Fri so there will at least be one set kicking around.
  AFULE Chief Train Controller

Location: South Australia
The Jumbo's have served us well over the years, and yes there was a few issues with them but overall performed well.

They had plenty of power and worked well even with three cars, I clocked 127 km/h going under the Pt Wakefield Road Bridge on numerous occasion's when leaving Adelaide on the evening pm express.

When management started loosing the plot and reducing section running time and trying to convince passengers that speed was the essence and not on time reliability that's when they started blaming the Jumbo's, it was a management stuff up at the time.

The Belair service was classic they tighten up the timetable and the effect was we couldn't run on time, so they blame the jumbo's, reduced the consist back to a 2 car set, what a joke. Management wouldn't listen to us driver who new what was occurring.  They then told the Transport Minister and travelling public, if we close three stations down on the Belair line the trains would run on time, another joke.

Then they time tried to turn Red Hens in to Super Chooks, we beat them on that exercise thank goodness because they were heavy and slow, but it was a pleasure to have been involved with the project just to show some engineers the real train drivers do know what they are talking about on most occasions.

The big question now; is the rumour right that Jumbo's can't operate under the new overhead wire when it goes LIVE?
 


  monday Chief Commissioner

On the subject of super chooks, whilst that was an ill fated experiment, it did lead to the revamping of cars 339 and 305 as a prototype for the red fleet.  Rust cut out, new sides, interior spruced up and carpet etc, overhauled traction equipment.

Pity that it never translated into the rest of the fleet - all academic now in any case.

There is no guarantee that the 2000s will be simply scrapped once finished with TA - going out on a limb, ill put a fiver on long odds and say that they will be bulk sold to either the Victorian Govt as a shorterm measure as an inter urban car (say a life on maybe 10 years) or alternatively exported overseas to a developing economy.
  steam4ian Chief Commissioner

On the subject of super chooks, whilst that was an ill fated experiment, it did lead to the revamping of cars 339 and 305 as a prototype for the red fleet. Rust cut out, new sides, interior spruced up and carpet etc, overhauled traction equipment.Pity that it never translated into the rest of the fleet - all academic now in any case.There is no guarantee that the 2000s will be simply scrapped once finished with TA - going out on a limb, ill put a fiver on long odds and say that they will be bulk sold to either the Victorian Govt as a shorterm measure as an inter urban car (say a life on maybe 10 years) or alternatively exported overseas to a developing economy.
"monday"


That's one way to nobble competing economies, sell them the 2000 class.

Most rail systems in developing economies are metre gauge or similar. Secondly they have low level platforms if platforms at all.

One thing about the raised cab is that step down entry could have been provided in front of the cab and below the driver's sight line.

The could be demotored and turned into ordinary cars with some driving cabs and generators retained for push pull loco hauled service. As car bodies they are quite good and would have many years life.

For those who know. did the Cummins engines perform better than the MAN engines?
  greasyrhys Chief Commissioner

Location: MacDonald Park, SA
On the subject of super chooks, whilst that was an ill fated experiment, it did lead to the revamping of cars 339 and 305 as a prototype for the red fleet. Rust cut out, new sides, interior spruced up and carpet etc, overhauled traction equipment.Pity that it never translated into the rest of the fleet - all academic now in any case.There is no guarantee that the 2000s will be simply scrapped once finished with TA - going out on a limb, ill put a fiver on long odds and say that they will be bulk sold to either the Victorian Govt as a shorterm measure as an inter urban car (say a life on maybe 10 years) or alternatively exported overseas to a developing economy.
"monday"


Not sure if the Jumbos are too wide for Victoria's railway system, can someone else confirm?

The NRM should certainly get a set, hopefully Steamranger will but we'll just to wait & see.
  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".
On the subject of super chooks, whilst that was an ill fated experiment, it did lead to the revamping of cars 339 and 305 as a prototype for the red fleet. Rust cut out, new sides, interior spruced up and carpet etc, overhauled traction equipment.Pity that it never translated into the rest of the fleet - all academic now in any case.There is no guarantee that the 2000s will be simply scrapped once finished with TA - going out on a limb, ill put a fiver on long odds and say that they will be bulk sold to either the Victorian Govt as a shorterm measure as an inter urban car (say a life on maybe 10 years) or alternatively exported overseas to a developing economy.
"monday"


Monday there were a few other Red Hens that got interiors worked over as well as those that you stated. Some got only carpeted floor while others got more or less done to them. It was done on a random basis though by the looks as the cars that got done were all over the number series not in an blocks of numbers or anything. 321 at the NRM has a altered interior to the original although it retains the original seating. 321 has the rubber strip flooring at the doors inside. Cant remember about 400 though.
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

... or alternatively exported overseas to a developing economy.
"monday"


That's one way to nobble competing economies, sell them the 2000 class.
"steam4ian"


And here I was thinking that the best method for expressing extreme displeasure with another nation was to invade their territory or launch air strikes. We shouldn't do it, as of today Australia is a member of the UN Security Council, which means we have to put in a decent effort at being nice to other nations.

There are international aid organisations that could organise more appropriate solutions for developing nations, and I agree with the point that most of them have standard or cape gauge tracks and low platforms if they are looking to rebuild older colonial infrastructure.
  AN830 Locomotive Driver

Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Well the cummins motors produce more power than the MAN engines. A cummins has 525hp, the MAN's were 500hp
  alcoworldseries Deputy Commissioner

Location: Auburn
Without putting to fine a point on it the MAN engines where mongrels, not helped by the fact that the 12 cylinder engine had 2 6 cylinder fuel pumps/racks linked by a linkage that always used to slip, so 6 cylinders in full power the other 6 reduced or at idle. The fuel consumption on MAN's was woeful if the Cummins are bad is best the public never know what the MAN's used to use think Cummins use x factor of 3 or 4 from memory the 3 car sets had endurance of 11 hours and 2 car units about 14, and that was before the exhaust valve feature was disconnected about 1985, meant all 12 cylinders using fuel all the time., Mention has been made of speeds that Jumbo's could achieve, I'll suggest that 127Kmh is modest!!
  62440 Chief Commissioner

Jumbo on the 721 from Gawler this morning, arriving NA at 808, they are still making the odd appearance.
  greasyrhys Chief Commissioner

Location: MacDonald Park, SA
In the past week I've only spotted 2103-2003-2104 on the Gawler line, not sure if the other sets are temporarily stored?
  defman70 Train Controller



The big question now; is the rumour right that Jumbo's can't operate under the new overhead wire when it goes LIVE?


"AFULE"


Yes it is...
  steam4ian Chief Commissioner

Without putting to fine a point on it the MAN engines where mongrels, not helped by the fact that the 12 cylinder engine had 2 6 cylinder fuel pumps/racks linked by a linkage that always used to slip, so 6 cylinders in full power the other 6 reduced or at idle. The fuel consumption on MAN's was woeful if the Cummins are bad is best the public never know what the MAN's used to use think Cummins use x factor of 3 or 4 from memory the 3 car sets had endurance of 11 hours and 2 car units about 14, and that was before the exhaust valve feature was disconnected about 1985, meant all 12 cylinders using fuel all the time., Mention has been made of speeds that Jumbo's could achieve, I'll suggest that 127Kmh is modest!!
"alcoworldseries"


Somebody else said they were designed for 140 kph.

Seems and overkill on the Adelaide network where the upper speed seems to be 90 kph.

The 2000s would have been useful if they had been geared down, this would have given better acceleration and ecconomy.

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