The great Adelaide shutdown 2013

 
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA

AFULE, you could quite likely be one of the drivers for DPTI. Some of the stories I have heard of the total complacency I have heard coming from the train drivers about exactly what happens to electric trains in derailments and collisions is just plain scary to those of us (like Ian and I) who have some idea about the behaviour of EHT and circuit protection.

One ought never assume that a cable at any potential lying on the ground is not going to kill you, most likely before you've even had a chance to contemplate the danger.

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  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA

Mr Peters, PLEASE! An electrical safety standard is not there to be ignored, or have permitted exceptions. One day it might be your life that an electrical safety standard preserves.

Electricity is not like most other dangerous things in the world. Typically, electricity will kill you if it's given the opportunity long before you hear it, smell it, taste it, or see it. Certainly well before you've thought about it. Not the kind of thing where you regard nearly close enough as good enough!

  62440 Chief Commissioner




Anyone got any progress on how far they are with the masts on the line?

"Milkomeda"

Just a drive past but masts are in up to north of Meyer Road.
Wire is being run on the Seaford line. The ancillary wires are run first, feeders and earths as it is hard to run these after the catenary is in place.
The bridge on Lonsdale Road looks like it will need a special structure in the near future, concrete masts are in on either end.

  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".



Mr Peters, PLEASE! An electrical safety standard is not there to be ignored, or have permitted exceptions. One day it might be your life that an electrical safety standard preserves.

Electricity is not like most other dangerous things in the world. Typically, electricity will kill you if it's given the opportunity long before you hear it, smell it, taste it, or see it. Certainly well before you've thought about it. Not the kind of thing where you regard nearly close enough as good enough!

"Aaron"


Aaron the definition of a standard is and ideal situation. Have you ever had to install something and you could not meet the ideal. I have and every job has to have some little bit of leeway in it to get the job done. You cannot overlook all of the standards on one job though. Even electricians at times have to do something's that are either not covered by the standards or are a one off job. Not everything in this world is to standards (Ideals).



Yes I agree that Electricity can kill you, even plumbers have died from electrocution on the job. Water pipes are commonly used as the earth and all plumbers are advised to put on a jump cable over any pipe that they have to cut to stop this. It is the first thing that you are taught actually. But as I pointed out not every job you do as a tradesman is the ideal job, every job has some little thing in it that might not be covered fully by the standards. The first thing a plumber gets is his book of regulations or standards and you learn very quickly that the jobs in the books and the actual job you are trying to do can be very different. You use the regulation's (Standards) as a guide though, but sometimes you have to get in someone more qualified in the trade to get you out of a corner you may have painted yourself into. He may or may not allow you to deviate just slightly from the regulations in order to get the job done. But he will not allow you to compromise safety though. If they rigidly inspected and enforced every standard I doubt you would get very much done at all.



Also we are talking about poles in a railway yard where there might not be enough room to put them at the standard distance but a 100mm either way will not stop a train taking out a staunchion or something, this is only common sense. No two train derailments are exactly the same so how can you possibly standardise something against things that are unknown quantities. The standards will only cover the likely points but how often does a million to one shot come up these days, quite often actually. Sure you can use computers etc to get the likely outcome from a derailment etc using data collected but the actual event that happens after could be that far removed from the simulation as to be unthought of. Is the overhead wiring earthquake proof as well as the wires coming down during one could also electrocute someone, a truck taking out one near a level crossing could do the same. You cannot cover every situation that could occur it is just not possible, so you cover the likely ones but one day the unthought of one will happen.

  dawesybj Chief Train Controller

Location: Morphett Vale Sth Australia





Anyone got any progress on how far they are with the masts on the line?

"Milkomeda"

Just a drive past but masts are in up to north of Meyer Road.
Wire is being run on the Seaford line. The ancillary wires are run first, feeders and earths as it is hard to run these after the catenary is in place.
The bridge on Lonsdale Road looks like it will need a special structure in the near future, concrete masts are in on either end.

"62440"


they got the concrete pour in at dyson rd overpass bridge near lonsdale stn they are going to be like whats in the adelaide yards going up there.

also mast are almost up from noarlunga ctr stn to feild embankment towards hallett cove beach.

  RobinOfAdelaide Station Master

For me, I live down near Noarlunga Centre. I can't be botherd with the whole shuttle busses. When ever I have been going in to the city. I have been using the 721.
  Jumbo2001 Junior Train Controller

Just as a FYI regarding the 15Km/h TSR in the Adelaide Yard due to "Clearance Infringements", the length of this restriction has been massively shortened, and now only applies to effectively 100m before the current 15Km/h thats in place due to Convention Centre works.
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA

Aaron the definition of a standard is and ideal situation.
"David Peters"


In which dictionary?

Try the OED



Definition of standard

noun

1 a level of quality or attainment: their restaurant offers a high standard of service the government’s ambition to raise standards in schools


  • a required or agreed level of quality or attainment: half of the beaches fail to comply with European standards [mass noun]: their tap water was not up to standard

  • British historical (in elementary schools) a grade of proficiency tested by examination or the form or class preparing pupils for such a grade: she was still in boarding school and had twice repeated the same standard


2 something used as a measure, norm, or model in comparative evaluations: the wages are low by today’s standards the system had become an industry standard


  • (standards) principles of conduct informed by notions of honour and decency: a decline in moral standards

  • the prescribed weight of fine metal in gold or silver coins: the sterling standard for silver

  • a system by which the value of a currency is defined in terms of gold or silver or both.

  • a measure for timber, equivalent to 165 cu. ft (4.67 cubic metres).


3 (especially with reference to jazz or blues) a tune or song of established popularity.

4 a military or ceremonial flag carried on a pole or hoisted on a rope.


  • used in names of newspapers: a report in the Evening Standard


5 a tree or shrub that grows on an erect stem of full height.


  • a shrub grafted on an erect stem and trained in tree form: [as modifier]: a standard rose

  • Botany the large, frequently erect uppermost petal of a papilionaceous flower. Also called vexillum.

  • Botany one of the inner petals of an iris flower, frequently erect.


6 an upright water or gas pipe.

adjective

1 used or accepted as normal or average: the standard rate of income tax it is standard practice in museums to register objects as they are acquired


  • (of a size, measure, design, etc.) regularly used or produced; not special or exceptional: all these doors come in a range of standard sizes

  • (of a work, repertoire, or writer) viewed as authoritative or of permanent value and so widely read or performed: his essays on the interpretation of reality became a standard text

  • denoting or relating to the form of a language widely accepted as the usual correct form: speakers of standard English


2 [attributive] (of a tree or shrub) growing on an erect stem of full height: standard trees are useful for situations where immediate height is needed(of a shrub) grafted on an erect stem and trained in tree form: standard roses
"OED 'standard'"



Is the OED too obscure? Try Standards Australia





What is a Standard?


Standards Australia > Standards Development > What is a Standard?



Standards are published documents setting out specifications and procedures designed to ensure products, services and systems are safe, reliable and consistently perform the way they were intended to. They establish a common language which defines quality and safety criteria. (bolding by Aaron)

Standards can be guidance documents including:


  • Australian Standards?;

  • International Standards and Joint Standards;

  • Codes;

  • Specifications;

  • Handbooks; and

  • Guidelines.

These documents are practical and don't set impossible goals. They are based on sound industrial, scientific and consumer experience and are constantly reviewed to ensure they keep pace with new technologies.

They cover everything from consumer products and services, construction, engineering, business, information technology, human services to energy and water utilities, the environment and much more.
"http://www.standards.org.au/StandardsDevelopment/What_is_a_Standard/Pages/default.aspx"






Or some dork on wiki?



Any norm, convention or requirement


Technical standard, an established norm or requirement about technical systems
"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard"


Have you ever had to install something and you could not meet the ideal. I have and every job has to have some little bit of leeway in it to get the job done. You cannot overlook all of the standards on one job though. Even electricians at times have to do something's that are either not covered by the standards or are a one off job. Not everything in this world is to standards (Ideals).
"David Peters"


I am a professional, everything I do complies with current and relevant standards in place during the project's life within the jurisdictions that my work will be applied. - It's a requirement (and it helps me sleep at night knowing something I have (fully or partly) designed/constructed is not going to injure or kill anyone)...

On occassion standards change over time, sometimes keeping within these ammended standards is not required on completed work, sometimes we treat changes to standards as retrospective and work is done to bring past projects to within current standard.

But, no, I cannot say I have ever completed a project that lies foul of a relevant standard.

  AFULE Chief Train Controller

Location: South Australia

As I stated in a earlier posting, it must have been signed of by the regulator for the system to be up and running, so why do we keep harping about it then.

The TSR for 15 km/h in the Adelaide yard might be about the "clearance Infringements" with the Jumbo's as it is on the Port Line between Bowden & Woodville. When they upgardes the yard and did they survey work they would have identified what has been known for years & decided to rectify it.

The run down entering the Adelaide yard use to be 90 > 55> 35> 15 >5 km'h coming in from the Port & Gawler lines, when they started up grading the system, they changed the run down from the Torrens River bridge for the Port & Gawler lines, and the Port Road bridge for the Main South & Suburban lines to back to 35> 15> 5 km/h with the 15 now starting around the 88 points cabin location, about the middle of the yard.



  22-Calibre Beginner




Almost wasn't gonna bother with this post because of all the self proclaimed industry know it alls on here that need to ultimately consult their own "rumour" mill to see if info is correct... but there is a 15km hour restriction through the whole Adelaide yard that is there due to balls up in placement of the upright gantry posts in the Adelaide yard. The new National rule book has infrastructure requiring to be 3 or more metres from the outside running rail, but these have been placed within the prescribed 3 m in reference to the OLD rule book. Watch this space.....

"defman70"


Another sad example of pathetic uninformed claptrap!  Where - exactly - do the ANRP Rules say this?

Rule ANRP2001 - Walking in the Danger Zone?  No.
Rule ANRP2017 - Working around electrical infastructure?  No.
Rule ANRP3021 - Work that affects traction return currents or track circuits?  No.

Then surely ....
Rule ANRP3000 - Planning work in the rail corridor?  No.  Not there either.

What the ANRP rules say is this:
The Danger Zone is all space within 3m horizontally from the nearest rail and any distance above or below this 3m, unless a safe place exists or can be created.

So.  The effect?   If personnel need to enter within the Danger Zone, certain rules of access must be applied.  That's it.

When youknow what you are talking about, feel free to start talking.

  62440 Chief Commissioner

Back to the project.
South of Anzac Highway there is a deep dig with geofabric being placed in short sections.
Mast footings are going in between Anzac and Leader, at least that is what they look like. They could be for the new station which is signposted as opening in September.
The western platform face at Keswick has been completely removed.
Brownhill Creek culvert is still under construction below the tram bridge.
New track does not appear to be laid past Mile End station.
Leader St crossing went off as I passed so I was hoping to see an ARTC working but it appeared to be a false alarm as guys were working on the ARTC track south of the tram bridge. Few annoyed motorists.
  Milkomeda Chief Train Controller

On the way to the city this morning on the N3 going over the railway line over Anzac Highway I've noticed they have now started laying new rails near the former Keswick station over the fresh ballast? they've laid in that area
  alcoworldseries Deputy Commissioner

Location: Auburn
The only question I'd raise 22 is have PTS actually adopted the ANRP suite yet, last I heard they still working on the old rules.
  defman70 Train Controller






Almost wasn't gonna bother with this post because of all the self proclaimed industry know it alls on here that need to ultimately consult their own "rumour" mill to see if info is correct... but there is a 15km hour restriction through the whole Adelaide yard that is there due to balls up in placement of the upright gantry posts in the Adelaide yard. The new National rule book has infrastructure requiring to be 3 or more metres from the outside running rail, but these have been placed within the prescribed 3 m in reference to the OLD rule book. Watch this space.....

"defman70"


Another sad example of pathetic uninformed claptrap! Where - exactly - do the ANRP Rules say this?

Rule ANRP2001 - Walking in the Danger Zone? No.
Rule ANRP2017 - Working around electrical infastructure? No.
Rule ANRP3021 - Work that affects traction return currents or track circuits? No.

Then surely ....
Rule ANRP3000 - Planning work in the rail corridor? No. Not there either.

What the ANRP rules say is this:
The Danger Zone is all space within 3m horizontally from the nearest rail and any distance above or below this 3m, unless a safe place exists or can be created.

So. The effect? If personnel need to enter within the Danger Zone, certain rules of access must be applied. That's it.

When youknow what you are talking about, feel free to start talking.

"22-Calibre"


I stand corrected dear sir on saying it was from the rule book... I prefer to be corrected in a more polite fashion.. you self righteous know it alls get a bit tiresome though... YAAAAAAWN! The new National Infrastructure Mfg standards dictate the 3m.. so don't get your knickers in a twist... as sexy as those bloomers are that you are wearing...

Hear me.. I STAND CORRECTED... sack cloth and ashes... get over it.. the information.. APART from quoting the rule book as the ruling info.. was still correct!!
So settle down take a breath... and enjoy the 15km/h speed restriction through the yard... and for gods sake.. get over yourselves!

The FACT REMAINS.. that the gantries HAVE been positioned incorrectly and the 15km/h will remain for us drivers until further notice. It has NOTHING TO DO with Jumbo's and the clearances down the Port line Mr AFULE.

Please allow other people to offer up information...I mean.. I really do wish we could all aspire to your level of knowledge and fault free lives...

  defman70 Train Controller










Almost wasn't gonna bother with this post because of all the self proclaimed industry know it alls on here that need to ultimately consult their own "rumour" mill to see if info is correct... but there is a 15km hour restriction through the whole Adelaide yard that is there due to balls up in placement of the upright gantry posts in the Adelaide yard. The new National rule book has infrastructure requiring to be 3 or more metres from the outside running rail, but these have been placed within the prescribed 3 m in reference to the OLD rule book. Watch this space.....

"defman70"


Another sad example of pathetic uninformed claptrap! Where - exactly - do the ANRP Rules say this?

Rule ANRP2001 - Walking in the Danger Zone? No.
Rule ANRP2017 - Working around electrical infastructure? No.
Rule ANRP3021 - Work that affects traction return currents or track circuits? No.

Then surely ....
Rule ANRP3000 - Planning work in the rail corridor? No. Not there either.

What the ANRP rules say is this:
The Danger Zone is all space within 3m horizontally from the nearest rail and any distance above or below this 3m, unless a safe place exists or can be created.

So. The effect? If personnel need to enter within the Danger Zone, certain rules of access must be applied. That's it.

When youknow what you are talking about, feel free to start talking.

"22-Calibre"


I stand corrected dear sir on saying it was from the rule book... I prefer to be corrected in a more polite fashion.. you self righteous know it alls get a bit tiresome though... YAAAAAAWN! The new National Infrastructure Mfg standards dictate the 3m.. so don't get your knickers in a twist... as sexy as those bloomers are that you are wearing...

Hear me.. I STAND CORRECTED... sack cloth and ashes... get over it.. the information.. APART from quoting the rule book as the ruling info.. was still correct!!
So settle down take a breath... and enjoy the 15km/h speed restriction through the yard... and for gods sake.. get over yourselves!

The FACT REMAINS.. that the gantries HAVE been positioned incorrectly and the 15km/h will remain for us drivers until further notice. It has NOTHING TO DO with Jumbo's and the clearances down the Port line Mr AFULE.

Please allow other people to offer up information...I mean.. I really do wish we could all aspire to your level of knowledge and fault free lives...

"defman70"


If you new drivers were as knowledgable as you seem to be, I can't help but wonder why you haven't done anything about it then or even challenged management over the door modification that was done on the drivers cab door on the 3000 class. Is the answer as simple as every one now days wants to be a boss, and they don't want to rock the boat or they are just to busy playing with there smart phones while driving trains?

"AFULE"


Shocked
And that's got to do with what? How?
Numero Uno...I'm not the one sprouting knowledge... I can admit I am wrong...
Number 2.... I'm not a 'new' driver...
Number 3.... What the hell are you talking about? I don't have a problem with the door... so why challenge?
Number 4... . Smart phones? What? How? Where? When?

  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA

Number 4... . Smart phones? What? How? Where? When?
"defman70"


You're smart enough to operate a smart phone? Razz
That aside, a phone could not possibly cause the distraction I remember seeing travelling to school in the late 80s and early 90s, Redhen drivers running down to Belair (with the then still broadsheet) Advertiser on their laps reading it. At least with a smart phone on their lap they'd have had a shot at seeing being able to see out the front windscreen.

Then there was the AN driver eating a pizza from it's box as they departed on an up Adelaide out of Murray Bridge, no one cared back then, and I am not sure why it suddenly matters now.

  alcoworldseries Deputy Commissioner

Location: Auburn
Easy Aaron its called lawyers
  Jumbo2001 Junior Train Controller




The only question I'd raise 22 is have PTS actually adopted the ANRP suite yet, last I heard they still working on the old rules.

"alcoworldseries"


We are in the process of adopting it. As it is known in our world, the AMPRN (Adelaide Metropolitan Passenger Rail Network) Rules and Procedures is currently being rolled out to all affected staff, with varying levels of "Gap Training" from the current rule book to the new one dependant on what your role is and what you need to know.

0200, Sunday April 7th is when the new AMPRN Rules and Procedures take effect.

  steam4ian Chief Commissioner




Number 4... . Smart phones? What? How? Where? When?
"defman70"


You're smart enough to operate a smart phone? Razz
That aside, a phone could not possibly cause the distraction I remember seeing travelling to school in the late 80s and early 90s, Redhen drivers running down to Belair (with the then still broadsheet) Advertiser on their laps reading it. At least with a smart phone on their lap they'd have had a shot at seeing being able to see out the front windscreen.

Then there was the AN driver eating a pizza from it's box as they departed on an up Adelaide out of Murray Bridge, no one cared back then, and I am not sure why it suddenly matters now.

"Aaron"


Aaron

I think you should look at the reports into SPADs and related incidents on the ATSB web site. Sad
Bad enough driving a car, but also bad driving a train because less is happening on the road so drivers anticipate that a signal is clear, sometimes it isn't. Distraction by other tasks is seen a a significant factor, one of those tasks is using the phone, even legitimately.

Regards
Ian

  62440 Chief Commissioner




Just as a FYI regarding the 15Km/h TSR in the Adelaide Yard due to "Clearance Infringements", the length of this restriction has been massively shortened, and now only applies to effectively 100m before the current 15Km/h thats in place due to Convention Centre works.

"Jumbo2001"

Just for the record, the TSR 15 still applies on the Down Gawler. There are no masts or portals between the Down Gawler and Up Outer Harbour so it is obviously not for OHW clearance infringements.

As a side-issue the Junction at Rosewater is now connected and the ballast has been dumped over the turnouts. Presumable one day they will get round to fettling it up to a useable condition allowing an alternative access to Dry Creek and access from the NRM to Adelaide or Dry Creek.

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