October 2013 Timetable

 
  Kamz Assistant Commissioner

Any reason why only every second train should extend to Berowra?  The 26 minute gap 18:34 - 19:00 at Asquith is poor.  As is the 25 minute one 18:04-18:29.
simonl

Isn't that normal? 30 minute frequency for Asquith, Mount Colah and Mount Kuring-gai with Wyong via North Shore trains also stopping at Asquith. Can't see that changing anytime soon.

Asquith gets an extra afternoon down service at 14.57, first stop Woy Woy.

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  simonl Chief Commissioner

Location: Brisbane
Isn't that normal? 30 minute frequency for Asquith, Mount Colah and Mount Kuring-gai with Wyong via North Shore trains also stopping at Asquith. Can't see that changing anytime soon.

Asquith gets an extra afternoon down service at 14.57, first stop Woy Woy.
Kamz
By "normal" I assume you mean existing.  I would have hoped something would have been done about it in this timetable.
  Blackadder Chief Commissioner

Location: Not the ECRL
By "normal" I assume you mean existing.  I would have hoped something would have been done about it in this timetable.
simonl
Has been that way as long as I can remember (mid 80's roughly), not expecting it to change anytime soon we seem to be the forgotten part of the Cityrail network between Berowra and Hornsby.
  Watson374 Chief Commissioner

Location: Fully reclined at the pointy end.
I have given the Kogarah issue some thought, and come to two conclusions:

1. The problem is not primarily about the loss of fast peak services to Rockdale and Kogarah. It is about the enormous cut in frequency.
2. I am inclined, rather cynically I must admit, to suspect that this move is deliberate and calculated, in order to forcibly invoke artificially high congestion on slow short-distance stopping services, therefore creating the perfect justification to foist their metro plans on St George, an easier place to plant it than where it is actually an appropriate solution.
  simonl Chief Commissioner

Location: Brisbane
I have given the Kogarah issue some thought, and come to two conclusions:

1. The problem is not primarily about the loss of fast peak services to Rockdale and Kogarah. It is about the enormous cut in frequency.
2. I am inclined, rather cynically I must admit, to suspect that this move is deliberate and calculated, in order to forcibly invoke artificially high congestion on slow short-distance stopping services, therefore creating the perfect justification to foist their metro plans on St George, an easier place to plant it than where it is actually an appropriate solution.
Watson374
That's more cynical than I.  I would say it's being done to keep numerous whingers happy, who constantly argue that these people should use the slower services, not "their" services.  Tools, I say.  Even that at Kogarah at least a number would actually be getting on in the PM.
  Watson374 Chief Commissioner

Location: Fully reclined at the pointy end.
That's more cynical than I.
"simonl"
I did say it was cynical.

I would say it's being done to keep numerous whingers happy, who constantly argue that these people should use the slower services, not "their" services.
"simonl"
From the operational viewpoint, a standardised express pattern and a single slow pattern which never rejoins the Mains is significantly advantageous.

At the expense of a key O&D station, but Gladys needs to stamp her mark with a show of force. If Kogarah falls, so be it.

Tools, I say.
"simonl"
I must say, there definitely appears to be a ridiculous level of commuter self-entitlement, particularly with regard to "their" seats; admittedly, it is more pronounced in interurban rather than suburban commuters. Suburban seats are filled on a first-come-first-served basis, and nobody has a "right" to a seat more than anyone else. Mentalities like these need to be broken.

Even that at Kogarah at least a number would actually be getting on in the PM.
"simonl"
Exactly. Kogarah is an O&D station insofar as (in terms of morning peak) being both an origin of commuters (largely City-bound) as well as a destination for many in the region (for schools, TAFE, etc.).
  simonl Chief Commissioner

Location: Brisbane
I must say, there definitely appears to be a ridiculous level of commuter self-entitlement, particularly with regard to "their" seats; admittedly, it is more pronounced in interurban rather than suburban commuters. Suburban seats are filled on a first-come-first-served basis, and nobody has a "right" to a seat more than anyone else. Mentalities like these need to be broken.
Watson374

I think it's sector 1 where it's most pronounced.  That's where nearly all of the "u" stops are.  Fortunately, all of these seem to be removed in this timetable so mentalities may change over time.

At the expense of a key O&D station, but Gladys needs to stamp her mark with a show of force. If Kogarah falls, so be it.
Watson374

So she needs to make a wrong decision to show her power?  Hmm.

Exactly. Kogarah is an O&D station insofar as (in terms of morning peak) being both an origin of commuters (largely City-bound) as well as a destination for many in the region (for schools, TAFE, etc.).
Watson374

I'd refer to Kogarah as a "destination".
  simonl Chief Commissioner

Location: Brisbane
Here is some of the AM peak on the North Shore line:

Central time, train from (route)
7:39am HBY via MQP
7:42am (empty slot)
7:45am HBY all stops
7:48am HBY -KLR
7:51am Wyong via Gordon -KLRPTWW
7:54am HBY via MQP
7:57am (empty slot)
8:00am HBY -PWW
8:03am Berowra via Gordon -KLR
8:06am Gosford via Gordon -KLRPTWW
8:09am HBY via MQP
8:12am (empty slot)
8:15am HBY -PWW
8:18am HBY -KLR
8:21am Wyong via Gordon -KLRPTWW
8:24am HBY via MQP
8:27am Gordon all stops
8:30am HBY -PWW
8:33am Berowra via Gordon -KLR
8:36am Gosford via Gordon -KLRPTWW
8:39am HBY via MQP
8:42am Gordon all stops
8:45am HBY -PWW
8:48am HBY -KLR
8:51am Wyong via Gordon -KLRPTWW
8:54am HBY via MQP
8:57am Gordon all stops
9:00am HBY -PWW
9:03am Berowra -KLR
9:06am Gosford -KLRPWW
9:09am HBY via MQP
9:12am Gordon all stops
9:15am HBY -PWW
9:18am HBY -KLR

I surmise that the Gordon all stopping trains are there because the rolling stock could not be used otherwise.

I'd have to say that I'm somewhat unimpressed by the above timetable.  The Hornsby, Turramurra, Gordon all to city trains coming 3 minutes after the Gordon all stoppers won't have too many people on them in particular.
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

Here is some of the AM peak on the North Shore line:

Central time, train from (route)
7:39am HBY via MQP
7:42am (empty slot)
7:45am HBY all stops
7:48am HBY -KLR
7:51am Wyong via Gordon -KLRPTWW
7:54am HBY via MQP
7:57am (empty slot)
8:00am HBY -PWW
8:03am Berowra via Gordon -KLR
8:06am Gosford via Gordon -KLRPTWW
8:09am HBY via MQP
8:12am (empty slot)
8:15am HBY -PWW
8:18am HBY -KLR
8:21am Wyong via Gordon -KLRPTWW
8:24am HBY via MQP
8:27am Gordon all stops
8:30am HBY -PWW
8:33am Berowra via Gordon -KLR
8:36am Gosford via Gordon -KLRPTWW
8:39am HBY via MQP
8:42am Gordon all stops
8:45am HBY -PWW
8:48am HBY -KLR
8:51am Wyong via Gordon -KLRPTWW
8:54am HBY via MQP
8:57am Gordon all stops
9:00am HBY -PWW
9:03am Berowra -KLR
9:06am Gosford -KLRPWW
9:09am HBY via MQP
9:12am Gordon all stops
9:15am HBY -PWW
9:18am HBY -KLR

I surmise that the Gordon all stopping trains are there because the rolling stock could not be used otherwise.

I'd have to say that I'm somewhat unimpressed by the above timetable.  The Hornsby, Turramurra, Gordon all to city trains coming 3 minutes after the Gordon all stoppers won't have too many people on them in particular.
simonl
Thanks for that.  It's different from the PM UP timetable in that the two Hornsby patterns are in adjacent slots.  I'm think that's to accommodate the Gordon stoppers.  And these must be about turning excess western line rolling stock from the contraflow direction.

I still think it looks like a NWRL timetable, where the Gordon starters would be part of the 8tph ex Rouse Hill.
  simonl Chief Commissioner

Location: Brisbane
I think you're being too optimistic.  They wouldn't have NWRL trains within 3 minutes of each other, and they aren't likely to change their mind on their NWRL plans.
  simonl Chief Commissioner

Location: Brisbane
1. The problem is not primarily about the loss of fast peak services to Rockdale and Kogarah. It is about the enormous cut in frequency.
Watson374
I'm actually more worried about the introduced disincentive to make cross town journeys by PT in peak hour.
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

I think you're being too optimistic.  They wouldn't have NWRL trains within 3 minutes of each other, and they aren't likely to change their mind on their NWRL plans.
simonl
Agreed.  I think the NWRL would look more like the DOWN PM peak, with the sequencing being:  Hornsby A/Berowa, NWRL, Hornsby B, NWLR, Central Coast.  But because the otherwise vacant slot is assigned Gordon starters, they need to go ahead of the Hornsby and Coast trains, so they've swapped slots.
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

Re Kogarah and Rockdale.

Both of these stations enjoyed the privilege of having (almost) every train on the sector stop there.  The reason is because both of these stations used to be genuine interchanges to light rail lines to Brighton le Sands and San Souci respectively.

I guess there might be scope for the "slow" half pattern ex Cronulla to add Kogarah back to it's pattern, so long as you're porepared to give Oatley pockets of more than 20min frequency.
  Watson374 Chief Commissioner

Location: Fully reclined at the pointy end.
I think it's sector 1 where it's most pronounced.  That's where nearly all of the "u" stops are.  Fortunately, all of these seem to be removed in this timetable so mentalities may change over time.
"simonl"
I believe so, too; on the Blue Mountains Line, the only u stops are PM peak pickups at Parramatta and Blacktown on flagships (plus Redfern pickups), and the Newcastle & Central Coast Line only have u stops on Redfern pickups.

So she needs to make a wrong decision to show her power?  Hmm.
"simonl"
What I meant is that I'm inclined to think of it as a show of force, not the right decision.

I'd refer to Kogarah as a "destination".
"simonl"
I know, but it's also a significant origin, too. How else would down PM peak trains dump nearly half their load at Kogarah?

Both of these stations enjoyed the privilege of having (almost) every train on the sector stop there.  The reason is because both of these stations used to be genuine interchanges to light rail lines to Brighton le Sands and San Souci respectively.
"djf01"
Rockdale is still an interchange (of sorts), though, and Kogarah isn't exactly a village of ten shacks.

I guess there might be scope for the "slow" half pattern ex Cronulla to add Kogarah back to it's pattern, so long as you're prepared to give Oatley pockets of more than 20min frequency.
"djf01"
I'd retain the existing timetable, really. I see the overall benefit from it to be marginal.

I'm actually more worried about the introduced disincentive to make cross town journeys by PT in peak hour.
"simonl"
That too, because of the forced change at Hurstville, which is asking for a stampede.
  simonl Chief Commissioner

Location: Brisbane
Rockdale isn't much of a destination nor a huge interchange point, at least by the stats.  I'm OK with trains bypassing there, it's Kogarah that I'm irritated by.
  Watson374 Chief Commissioner

Location: Fully reclined at the pointy end.
Rockdale isn't much of a destination nor a huge interchange point, at least by the stats.  I'm OK with trains bypassing there, it's Kogarah that I'm irritated by.
"simonl"
Not that huge, no. There's a reason why there's currently a half-pattern bypassing Rockdale but calling at Kogarah. Kogarah is a screaming point, though.
  bowralcommuter Chief Commissioner

Location: Asleep on a Manly Ferry
I've done a search of all the Countrylink services, nothing of huge note has changed from what I could see. The biggest changes are the Canberra Xplorers, which have a slightly shorter journey time going via East Hills. Of course Melbourne also goes via EH but its departure times from other than Central are the same/similar. Excuse my language but I get the sense that Gladys can't give a f*** about Countrylink, if I were to hazard a guess she probably thinks its not worth the political risk to do anything major. Before any one here says Countrylink is fine its not, its losses are quite substantial.
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

Rockdale isn't much of a destination nor a huge interchange point, at least by the stats.  I'm OK with trains bypassing there, it's Kogarah that I'm irritated by.
simonl
From the 2010 Compendium:

Top 20 Stations by Ticket Issues:
  • 1 Central 5.52mil
  • 2 Town Hall 4.27
  • 7 Hurstville 1.75
  • 16 Rockdale 1.28
  • 19 Kogarah 1.12

Top 20 Stations by Revenue:
  • 1 Central $40mil
  • 2 Town Hall $30mil
  • 8 Hurstville $14mil
  • 9 Rockdale $12mil
  • 17 Kogarah $9mil

Top 20 by AM passengers:
  • 1 Central 46k
  • 2 Town Hall 43k
  • 13 Hurstville 9k
  • 16 Kogarah 7k  (~33% are exits BTW, a very high ratio, and more in total than Hurstville)
  • 21 Rockdale ~7k - Doesn't make the top 20 list!

I think the main reason they have cut these busy stations from the local Hurstville stopping patten is about load balancing.  I think it's unlikely Hurstville-Banksia on it's own would generate enough traffic to justify a full 6tph pattern without all the Kogarah boardings.

From 2009:




This suggests you guys have something about re-including Kogarah in at least one of the Cronulla/Waterfall patterns, but probably both.
  simonl Chief Commissioner

Location: Brisbane
But Rockdale daily station exits 6am-9:30am: 900
entries 3pm-6:30pm: 1700

Kogarah daily station exist 6am-9:30am: 3000
entries 3pm-6:30pm: 2700

Do you see where I'm coming from?  Actually you mention a similar thing.  The stats you post do indeed show that Rockdale is a bigger origin than Kogarah, but the latter is a bigger destination.
  victorwilson Junior Train Controller

Location: Temporarily stuck in the ACT
Disappointingly, there are absolutely no changes in Carlingford line frequency, although it's great to still have an S set exclusive line. The only major difference is that the train spends most of its time waiting at Carlingford rather than Clyde.
  bowralcommuter Chief Commissioner

Location: Asleep on a Manly Ferry
Disappointingly, there are absolutely no changes in Carlingford line frequency, although it's great to still have an S set exclusive line. The only major difference is that the train spends most of its time waiting at Carlingford rather than Clyde.
"victorwilson"


You still have your AM peak direct at least Very Happy
  Watson374 Chief Commissioner

Location: Fully reclined at the pointy end.
I see the load-balancing arguments, and I also see the express/local pattern consistency argument, but I find that these still fail to justify the frequency cuts.
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

But Rockdale daily station exits 6am-9:30am: 900
entries 3pm-6:30pm: 1700

Kogarah daily station exist 6am-9:30am: 3000
entries 3pm-6:30pm: 2700

Do you see where I'm coming from?  Actually you mention a similar thing.  The stats you post do indeed show that Rockdale is a bigger origin than Kogarah, but the latter is a bigger destination.
simonl
Yep.  I'm sold.  re-include Kogarah in the Cronulla Patterns.  Not sure where to cut though to retain the same journey time!
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

I see the load-balancing arguments, and I also see the express/local pattern consistency argument, but I find that these still fail to justify the frequency cuts.
Watson374
Right across the timetable old/current timetable there are too many stops IMHO.  Presumably a result of lobbying, "consultation" and the general "don't frighten the horses" approach to the political management of Railcorp.  The results is lots of stops on most patterns - too many really making journey times too long - while at the same time the patterns become erratic - or not really patterns at all while all these stops get catered for.  The "solution" should be all stations get 1 stop on one pattern unless it's an interchange station (I'm really only against interchanges to get to the main hub), with non-interchange stations distributed across the patterns for appropriate load balancing.  But obviously that's all but impossible politically.
  simonl Chief Commissioner

Location: Brisbane
What amazes me is that almost a quarter of a century after East Hills-Glenfield and well over a decade after the Y-Link we still have Campbelltown via Granville trains.

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