Noarlunga Line Shutdown

 
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

The simple diagrams shown on the school science class presentation definitely had labels pointing to motors on each end of both driving motor cars. Pretty slim stuff if you're looking for evidence to make a 'prediction' about the A-City EMUs, but still a minor pointer at least.

It's also worth considering the 'Electrostar' series EMUs that Bombardier are still pumping out for the British market. These units are geared for 175km/h running and manage to have no trouble on the same sorts of underpass/overpass ramps as at Goodwood despite a far wider range of weather and railhead conditions - all on one powered bogie per motor car. Given that the way Bombardier turns a profit is by concentrating the production of a smaller number of technical components which can be shipped out and bolted into any end product*, it could have been decided that these systems would be more than adequate for the lower top speeds and easier weather conditions of Adelaide.

Hearing from an authoritative source on what the A-City EMUs do have instead of predicting based on trains in Perth, trains in powerpoint files or trains in England could be good though.


* could that also be the source of the production delays? Maybe somebody at Bombardier Transportation HQ in Germany decided some of our traction gear would be better used in a new Electrostar or TALENT EMU where the customers might be more fussy about timeliness than shipping it out to Australia.

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  steam4ian Chief Commissioner

Aaron

Looking at the snails rate progress on the electrification, in spite of Milko's optimism, and the lack of signalling I support your February contention.

At Lonsdale the IRJs have been bridged but axle counters have not been installed, the old track circuit wiring is still connected.

There are signals that have had the heads replaced and have serious sighting issues. The OH is now up at some places and the issue has not been resolved.
Signals which were there have been taken away, their function is still required, and they have not been replaced and when they are there will be sighting issues.

It appears the track rebuild work has got to 90% completion and stalled. The track is restored it has had at least one pass of the tamper because the levels look OK but the shoulders are all over the place. The cesses will need to be regraded, if not the rebuild work will be wasted in five years.

The electrification and signalling works are a farce.

There is serious miss-management somewhere. I know the people at the engineering and working coal faces can do it, they demonstrated that with their getting the services to Wayville running in time.

I do know well a senior rail consultant who practices interstate and internationally who could straighten this project out, that is if you can get him out of the front of a Qantas plane for long enough.

Ian
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Aaron

Looking at the snails rate progress on the electrification, in spite of Milko's optimism, and the lack of signalling I support your February contention.

At Lonsdale the IRJs have been bridged but axle counters have not been installed, the old track circuit wiring is still connected.

There are signals that have had the heads replaced and have serious sighting issues. The OH is now up at some places and the issue has not been resolved.
Signals which were there have been taken away, their function is still required, and they have not been replaced and when they are there will be sighting issues.
"steam4ian"
Much of this troubles me, the progress is far too slow and god knows why they are completing the project so haphazardly. If they actually completed the works in a linear fashion there would eventually be milestones where DPTI could run trains from Adelaide to varying Bs. Instead there are likely to be various minor tasks in 'unimportant' locations preventing regulator sign off.

The electrification and signalling works are a farce.

There is serious miss-management somewhere. I know the people at the engineering and working coal faces can do it, they demonstrated that with their getting the services to Wayville running in time.

I do know well a senior rail consultant who practices interstate and internationally who could straighten this project out, that is if you can get him out of the front of a Qantas plane for long enough.

Ian
"steam4ian"
What irks me most is that I don't think there is a single sector of the electrification running to time! And, seemingly neither of whichever Minister wishes to get some face time on TV can be bothered to apply or enforce delay penalties! Tom has no idea about the project, the perfect example of this was his insistence of 'on time' only hours before he announced a 60+ day delay on the project... He either need to seek on time advice more often, (his 'on time' was probably supplied to him about three weeks into the project) or he needs to get better advisors, and or he needs to ask better questions.

If there are no financial penalties for tardy delivery schedules (why else have they not applied any?) then whomever let the contract needs to be hanged, not sacked or packed off with Cavalia - something they would eminently qualified to do.
  poxbox3030 Train Controller

Location: Train Control
Hearing from an authoritative source on what the A-City EMUs do have instead of predicting based on trains in Perth, trains in powerpoint files or trains in England could be good though.
justapassenger


Well, here we go : http://www.infrastructure.sa.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0004/91975/2013_02_14_Adelaide_EMU_-_A-city_Factsheet.pdf

This appears to be an official PDF from Bombardier about the A-City EMU's so that would indicate an authoritative source wouldn't you agree?

If you read the document from top to bottom you will note that the A-City EMU's are based on the Perth B series EMU (And Vlocity DMU)

And you will also note in the technical characteristics under 'Traction Motors (AC)' that a 3 car set has 8 traction motors per 3 car set.

Now that would tell me that at 2 traction motors per bogie that the A-City Adelaide 4000's would have a total of 4 powered bogies.

Not a bad 'Prediction' I would say.

Also, from an experience point of view (I have driven EMU's in Perth and DMU/DEMU's in Adelaide), I cant see why they would lower the traction power from 3 powered bogies on a 3 car 3000 to 2 for a 3 car 4000 set as Aaron predicted. The 4000 have higher capacity so reducing the tractive effort seems a bit of a reverse step wouldn't you say? Consider that the Perth and Brisbane EMU's are narrow gauge with 4 powered bogies, and the Adelaide ones are broad gauge with a much higher passenger capacity - so common sense would say that the design would continue to dictate the 4 powered bogies.

this is from 'justadriver' point of view of course
  steam4ian Chief Commissioner

"this is from 'justadriver' point of view of course"

LaughingLaughingLaughing
  steam4ian Chief Commissioner

"this is from 'justadriver' point of view of course"

LaughingLaughingLaughing
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Well, here we go : http://www.infrastructure.sa.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0004/91975/2013_02_14_Adelaide_EMU_-_A-city_Factsheet.pdf

This appears to be an official PDF from Bombardier about the A-City EMU's so that would indicate an authoritative source wouldn't you agree?

If you read the document from top to bottom you will note that the A-City EMU's are based on the Perth B series EMU (And Vlocity DMU)

And you will also note in the technical characteristics under 'Traction Motors (AC)' that a 3 car set has 8 traction motors per 3 car set.

Now that would tell me that at 2 traction motors per bogie that the A-City Adelaide 4000's would have a total of 4 powered bogies.

Not a bad 'Prediction' I would say.

Also, from an experience point of view (I have driven EMU's in Perth and DMU/DEMU's in Adelaide), I cant see why they would lower the traction power from 3 powered bogies on a 3 car 3000 to 2 for a 3 car 4000 set as Aaron predicted. The 4000 have higher capacity so reducing the tractive effort seems a bit of a reverse step wouldn't you say? Consider that the Perth and Brisbane EMU's are narrow gauge with 4 powered bogies, and the Adelaide ones are broad gauge with a much higher passenger capacity - so common sense would say that the design would continue to dictate the 4 powered bogies.

this is from 'justadriver' point of view of course
"poxbox3030"
As I said, I am quite happy (or pleased and delighted in this case!) to have been corrected. I was certain I'd seen a document like that, referencing the single powered bogie per A/B and presumed that was where the data in the ppt presentation came from. Four powered bogies should see the 4000s rocking along, and that can't be a bad thing!
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Also, from an experience point of view (I have driven EMU's in Perth and DMU/DEMU's in Adelaide), I cant see why they would lower the traction power from 3 powered bogies on a 3 car 3000 to 2 for a 3 car 4000 set as Aaron predicted. The 4000 have higher capacity so reducing the tractive effort seems a bit of a reverse step wouldn't you say?
"poxbox3030"
Looking at the project in general, I will no longer get surprised by anything that happens on the network, forward, reverse, sideways steps and steps not taken, we've seen them all.
  Milkomeda Chief Train Controller

The last of the steel gantries are now almost finished being erected up to Anzac highway bridge caught a glimpse of it while I was on the n3. So the people complaining about lack of overhead structure in that particular area can now put it to rest.
  62430 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Metro Adelaide
Lineside commissioning of signalling from Wayville to Oaklands was taking place this afternoon.  A considerable number of signal engineers were at signals, AWS ramps and cabinets.  Green and yellow aspects were visible as well the previously uniform red!  The Tonsley Jn points were being tested yesterday.  The only signals now covered up are for the reverse direction working between Goodwood and Wayville.  Signal 211 on the Dn Seaford at Mile End Stn is now relit, has its number plate restored and is plated A instead of the P it had earlier in the week. I assume that the Mile End crossover were clipped out of action during the Show shuttles.

Earth and return conductors have been run out since yesterday on the down line from CrossRd/Edwardstown to Tonsley Jn/Ascot Park.

Alex C
  Milkomeda Chief Train Controller

This makes me think they want to start track testing from Adelaide to Oaklands soon
  62430 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Metro Adelaide
This makes me think they want to start track testing from Adelaide to Oaklands soon
Milkomeda
The signalling centre end of things is presumably still to be commissioned.  When Rood Hook was interviewed last month he implied that it was the interfacing between the centre and the lineside taht had been problematical in the Belair reopening.

Also there is the small matter of the station work at Wayville and Marion and the pedestrian crossing at Fairfax Ave.

Alex C
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
Better to get the signalling sorted out properly, I'm guessing they don't want a repeat of the Belair line fiasco.

So apart from those pedestrian crossings and the various line-side signals that need doing, is there anything else holding up diesel services now?
  witsend Chief Commissioner

Location: Front RH Seat of a School Bus
I'd suggest possibly actual rolling stock to run the services.

The Outer Harbour and Belair services have had significant increases, and subsequent demand on rollingstock, and the Gawler Timetable iss pretty hectic. Would there actually be enough railcars to run the Noarlunga Line allowing for servicing sechdules etc?

If the 2000 Class aren't permitted under the wire (and I still can't see why not as you look at a Cityrail V set, and its double deck where the passenger at at the same height as the driver of a 2000/2100 etc), it means that you'd need 15-17 sets of 3000 class railcars, in various configurations, just to cover the temporary timetable used up until the closure, until sufficient electric stock in online. Add in another 2 sets for Tonsley, I'm not convinced that a full functioning service can be resumed with the current fleet, discounting the electrics.
  Halo Chief Train Controller

We would hope that they learned a lesson from the Belair line, and apply this to the Seaford line.
  Pressman Spirit of the Vine

Location: Wherever the Tin Chook or Qantas takes me
Well, here we go : http://www.infrastructure.sa.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0004/91975/2013_02_14_Adelaide_EMU_-_A-city_Factsheet.pdf

This appears to be an official PDF from Bombardier about the A-City EMU's so that would indicate an authoritative source wouldn't you agree?

If you read the document from top to bottom you will note that the A-City EMU's are based on the Perth B series EMU (And Vlocity DMU)

And you will also note in the technical characteristics under 'Traction Motors (AC)' that a 3 car set has 8 traction motors per 3 car set.

Now that would tell me that at 2 traction motors per bogie that the A-City Adelaide 4000's would have a total of 4 powered bogies.

Not a bad 'Prediction' I would say.

Also, from an experience point of view (I have driven EMU's in Perth and DMU/DEMU's in Adelaide), I cant see why they would lower the traction power from 3 powered bogies on a 3 car 3000 to 2 for a 3 car 4000 set as Aaron predicted. The 4000 have higher capacity so reducing the tractive effort seems a bit of a reverse step wouldn't you say? Consider that the Perth and Brisbane EMU's are narrow gauge with 4 powered bogies, and the Adelaide ones are broad gauge with a much higher passenger capacity - so common sense would say that the design would continue to dictate the 4 powered bogies.

this is from 'justadriver' point of view of course
"poxbox3030"


Going by the link from poxbox3030 and wikipedia we can make the following power comparison:-
4000 class 3 car set (P-T-P) = 1,600kW*
3000/3100 class = 260kW* each so a 3 car set (P-P-P) = 780kW*
2000 class = 780kW** so a 3 car set (T-P-T) = 780kW**

Effectively a A-City set has twice the Power rating of the 3000/3100 class set

* = Total Traction Motor rating
** = Prime Mover rating so the power to rail would be less
  Pressman Spirit of the Vine

Location: Wherever the Tin Chook or Qantas takes me
The last of the steel gantries are now almost finished being erected up to Anzac highway bridge caught a glimpse of it while I was on the n3. So the people complaining about lack of overhead structure in that particular area can now put it to rest.
"Milkomeda"

Only the masts have been installed, the cross beams are still missing in that section.
Hangers, Insulators etc where being fitted to the portals behind APT today.
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

If the 2000 Class aren't permitted under the wire (and I still can't see why not as you look at a Cityrail V set, and its double deck where the passenger at at the same height as the driver of a 2000/2100 etc),
"witsend"
This has been done to death. There are two significant problems with this.

1. Our lines are high voltage AC, those in Sydney are low voltage DC which allows for narrower clearances. The lines in Sydney might also be physically higher given their use of double-deck EMUs, but I don't know the exact height of either our lines or theirs.

2. The double-deck EMUs used in Sydney are (not surprisingly, being EMUs) designed to be compatible with electrification right the way through, with the roof being properly earthed in case of an arc or a live cable coming down. The fibreglass canopy on the 2000/2100 cab is not safe from either an arc, the electrical issue of being hit by a live cable or the physical damage caused by a downed cable slicing through it.

If a 2000/2100 consist was scheduled to be sent onto one of the southern lines I expect that drivers would walk off the job en masse, and quite rightly. That's okay though, because the 2000/2100 class can still keep running on the northern lines to Outer Harbour and Gawler.
... it means that you'd need 15-17 sets of 3000 class railcars, in various configurations, just to cover the temporary timetable used up until the closure, until sufficient electric stock in online. Add in another 2 sets for Tonsley, I'm not convinced that a full functioning service can be resumed with the current fleet, discounting the electrics.
"witsend"

The last full timetable on the Noarlunga/Tonsley line (up to the start of February 2012) required a maximum of 13 consists in service at one time, including consists in the middle of a layover between two service runs.

The increases to the Outer Harbour and Belair lines were not really that significant (mostly just a rather average spin job), and I'm sure that with the full use of all ten 2000/2100 consists and the temporary shortening of some 3000/3100 consists by one car there would be ample stock available to not only resume a full schedule to Noarlunga and Tonsley but also to extend most trains to Seaford, or at worst run a Noarlunga-Seaford shuttle. It might lead to some services being quite crowded (i.e. Outer Harbour line people might get the rude shock of needing to sit next to strangers) but it would still be the best immediate step to get rail running again and stop fluffing around with substitute buses or leaving perfectly good new stations gathering dust while blocked up by fences.

As each EMU enters service, a 3000/3100 set can be cascaded off the Seaford line and go back to providing higher capacity on the other lines. Once enough have entered service that capacity on all the other lines is back to normal, adding in extra trains becomes an option.
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
the 2000/2100 class can still keep running on the northern lines to Outer Harbour and Gawler.
"justapassenger"
Not with the conveyance being installed to DC they can't...
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
Effectively a A-City set has twice the Power rating of the 3000/3100 class set
Pressman
Impressive, no chance of them getting stuck in the underpass then!  Looking at the videos on YouTube of the tests, they look like they have really good acceleration from a standing stop as you would expect with a brand new electric train I suppose.
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

Not with the conveyance being installed to DC they can't...
"Aaron"
But with that construction not scheduled any time soon (and potentially subject to funds being recalled in the next federal budget) that's not going to interfere with the 2000/2100 fleet working to the northern lines during 2014-15 while DMUs are needed to the south.

It will only be a problem if there is a catastrophic fleet-wide problem on the A-City EMUs that will require long-term usage of the 2000/2100 fleet beyond 2014-15.
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
But with that construction not scheduled any time soon (and potentially subject to funds being recalled in the next federal budget) that's not going to interfere with the 2000/2100 fleet working to the northern lines during 2014-15 while DMUs are needed to the south.
"justapassenger"
The state ought to be able to fund that on it's own, after all, we just spent $40M (if it's one budget) on a new needless and pointless bridge...

It will only be a problem if there is a catastrophic fleet-wide problem on the A-City EMUs that will require long-term usage of the 2000/2100 fleet beyond 2014-15.
"justapassenger"
Not even I think that is likely!
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

The state ought to be able to fund that on it's own, ...
"Aaron"
Should and will are two different things completely though, given we don't know for sure whether the state government actually wanted to do it in the near future or just accepted it because that's the polite thing for a state government to do when the federal government offers money.

Whether it happens or not, it's not going to be happening soon enough for it to get in the way of the Jumbos serving out their last days on the northern lines through 2014-15 prior to the 3000/3100s getting cascaded from the Seaford/Tonsley lines as the A-City fleet enter service.

It might be a better all-round result to simply install the extra equipment needed to maintain the A-City fleet at the Seaford Meadows depot, since it's going to be needed anyway if the Torrens Junction separation project ever enters physical reality and the route to Dry Creek is blocked off for 6-10 months. If more of the routine maintenance and cleaning is done in the south (given the fleet is to be just the right size for the whole lot to be permanently allocated to Seaford/Tonsley as a captive fleet) the electrification to Dry Creek can get shelved for 10-15 years until the 3000/3100 DMUs approach life expiry and it therefore becomes timely to electrify all the way to Gawler and order new-build EMUs.
... after all, we just spent $40M (if it's one budget) on a new needless and pointless bridge...
"Aaron"
Did you mean to say on budget instead?

I disagree about that bridge being needless or pointless (BikeSA and a number of other groups had been pushing for a new non-road crossing for quite a while) but I do agree that the $40m price tag is ridiculous. It could even be argued that it already has blown out because it was originally supposed to be included as part of the "$535 million and not a dollar more" price for the whole Adelaide Oval project - along with the tram extension through North Adelaide which was part of the original plan to meet FIFA compliance for Australia's now-defeated bid to host the World Cup.

Not even I think that is likely!
"Aaron"
I'm sure they weren't thinking that such a problem was likely in Melbourne when they ordered new EMUs from one of the world's leading suppliers, based on proven designs at that, and it turned out the brakes didn't work.
  Milkomeda Chief Train Controller
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Did you mean to say on budget instead?
"justapassenger"
I know not where the 'e' came from.

I disagree about that bridge being needless or pointless (BikeSA and a number of other groups had been pushing for a new non-road crossing for quite a while) but I do agree that the $40m price tag is ridiculous. It could even be argued that it already has blown out because it was originally supposed to be included as part of the "$535 million and not a dollar more" price for the whole Adelaide Oval project - along with the tram extension through North Adelaide which was part of the original plan to meet FIFA compliance for Australia's now-defeated bid to host the World Cup.
"justapassenger"
Why do BikeSA need another non road crossing?

Given the reason for the new bridge is to safely and efficiently link pedestrian traffic between the tennis/cricket/football and ARS I would suggest the bridge as build is only just barely fit for purpose. Given that it both starts and ends in incorrect locations on both sides of the river... The northern end would be more sensibly terminated on the northern side of Memorial Drive, and the southern end should terminate at the Convention Centre/Festival Theatre 'plaza' in line with glass footbridge toward ARS... But we wouldn't want to be too sensible about these things.

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