The future of Dorrigo?

 
Topic moved from New South Wales by dthead on 30 Jan 2014 23:12
  Junction box Chief Commissioner

Location: newy
Does anyone know what the future holds for this place or does it look like 4420, 4206 etc will turn into rust buckets?
Over the years the collection has increased but public access has been restricted, how do we get to have a look before everything rusts away?

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  waynes Junior Train Controller

Location: Victoria
Does anyone know what the future holds for this place or does it look like 4420, 4206 etc will turn into rust buckets?
Over the years the collection has increased but public access has been restricted, how do we get to have a look before everything rusts away?
Junction box

Are there any plans to cover the collection or at least some of the collection?
  Jim K Train Controller

Location: Well west of the Great Divide in NSW but not as far as South Australia
No money, no plans....
  chuffa Junior Train Controller

Join up at Dorrigo, im sure the money will go towards reopening the line and opening up the collection.....
  aussieloco Junior Train Controller

Does anyone know what the future holds for this place or does it look like 4420, 4206 etc will turn into rust buckets?
Over the years the collection has increased but public access has been restricted, how do we get to have a look before everything rusts away?
"Junction box"


Yes general public access is restricted because the council will not allow the Museum to open unless certain conditions are met. Individuals/tour groups that want to look around just have to ask- like you for that matter. If you want to look around, just go up and ask him. Keith is not some angry old collector who wont let you, all you have to do is ask.

And for your information, movement at Dorrigo is happening a lot sooner than you doom-sayers say.

Oh and another thing...when did any of the NSW preservation groups last purchase a piece of rollingstock from outside the little world of the preservation network??

That's right, no-one. The Dorrigo collection is far greater than the whole of the NSW preservation scene put together. ARHS' Canberra is outside, with tons of equipment going to rust without anyone batting an eyelid about it, but as soon as Dorrigo is mentioned the attacks are unleashed. None of these people bothered to mention the appalling state of the Heritage Listed 10 Class BEFORE the purchase of them by Dorrigo. If Keith had not arranged for their immediate removal, they would have been scrapped two months ago when Huntlee claimed their land, heritage listing or not, scrappers do not care. No-one has mentioned the fact that of the 7 10 class locos that were sold to Keith for $630,000 mind you, there are only enough parts to fully reassemble 1-2 of them...not that they will ever run either.

Before it all rusts away...again, go there and see that the lies that have been spawned over time are exactly that- lies
  Bogong Chief Commissioner

Location: Essendon Aerodrome circa 1980
Thanks Aussie Loco. It's nice to hear someone put the pro Dorrigo case.

But in the other current Dorrigo thread at http://www.railpage.com.au/f-t11376470.htm there is an old 1989 video by the ABC Investigators TV show.

* Have things changed in the 25 years since that show was made?

* Can other groups buy parts and/or rolling stock from Dorrigo, or will they have to wait for Keith Jones to 'shuffle off the mortal coil'... so to speak?
  tezza Chief Commissioner

Do you remember long serving Dorrigo member Geoff Brycesson Aussie Loco?
I dont think you do, otherwise you would recall that Keith Jones bullied him into leaving the museum in poverty and  Geoff's ultimate suicide because of this.
Keith can collect all the old trains he likes, it doesnt change the type of person he is.
  grant3830 Junior Train Controller



Oh and another thing...when did any of the NSW preservation groups last purchase a piece of rollingstock from outside the little world of the preservation network??

aussieloco

Didn't the ARHS ACT division purchase 4468?
  allambee Chief Train Controller

None of these people bothered to mention the appalling state of the Heritage Listed 10 Class BEFORE the purchase of them by Dorrigo. If Keith had not arranged for their immediate removal, they would have been scrapped two months ago when Huntlee claimed their land, heritage listing or not, scrappers do not care. No-one has mentioned the fact that of the 7 10 class locos that were sold to Keith for $630,000 mind you, there are only enough parts to fully reassemble 1-2 of them...not that they will ever run either.
aussieloco

I don't think that's correct. I recall there was another purchase offer "on the table" for the 10 class, unfortunately they were outbid by the DSR&M
  Spiritman Train Controller

Location: Camden, NSW
Thanks Aussie Loco. It's nice to hear someone put the pro Dorrigo case.

But in the other current Dorrigo thread at http://www.railpage.com.au/f-t11376470.htm there is an old 1989 video by the ABC Investigators TV show.

* Have things changed in the 25 years since that show was made?

* Can other groups buy parts and/or rolling stock from Dorrigo, or will they have to wait for Keith Jones to 'shuffle off the mortal coil'... so to speak?
Bogong

Thanks Bogong, always wondered what all the fuss was all about with this museum (graveyard more like it)...very shonky indeed and a great shame at the same time.
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Richmond Vic
Museum, my foot !  It's a hoarder's yard.
  Spiritman Train Controller

Location: Camden, NSW
Museum, my foot ! It's a hoarder's yard.
Valvegear

The intention was there I guess for a museum in the early 80's...but yeah it certainly looks like a hoarder's yard now.
  MEASWELL Junior Train Controller

Location: werribee/tullamarine
When the wife and I were up @ Coffs Harbour around this time last year, we visited Dorrigo and the collection looked very forlorn rusting away in the torrential rain!!! A very sad state of affairs, especially when there are signs in the local cafe's telling you about the "railway museum" but you can't actually access the collection (though there may well be some OH&S issues too from what I observed) . Sounds like if i go back 20 years time there will be still masses of rusting hulks there still in a fenced off yard
  12CSVT Chief Commissioner

Location: Drowning in accreditation red tape!
What evidence is there that any of the items at Dorrigo are actually "rusting" (other than scrap items held for parts stripping)?

The steam locos are continuously oiled, so that every nut could be easily loosened by a sturdy shifter and a bit of grunt. Carriages are progressively all being re-roofed and weatherproofed. Earthworks are continuing to provide a high quality display yard (much of which will be eventually roofed over), so eventually Dorrigo station yard will be emptied out.

Faster progress is limited by manpower, funding and the priority of getting all remaining Dorrigo assets (like the garratt at Forbes and the electrics at Werris Creek) transported back to Dorrigo (again, constrained by manpower and funding). On the topic of funding, all acquisitions, transport and care and maintenance and funded purely from the members pockets. No public money of any consequence is spent at Dorrigo, hence the way the private assets owned by the DSR&M members are preserved is really no business of anyone else, other than they ARE preserved and WILL be restored and WILL be put on public display (with the exception of the spare parts deros, which are generally duplicates, were already in poor condition and were always destined to be scrapped)

The delays in achieving public opening are purely down to the local council's intransigence and lack of support in direct contrast to that of the local community who demonstrate their support, financially, time and again.

The hostility constantly expressed against Keith Jones is appalling, considering the man's dedication to NSW railway preservation, his committment (16 hours a day, 7 days a week) to the cause and the loyalty he engenders from the DSR&M membership - demonstrated by the unity of the Board and their collective ability to raise astonishing amounts of funding that leaves other kindred societies green with envy.

Yes, Keith does appear to random, casual, stickybeaks and rubberneckers as a gruff, prickly and somewhat unfriendly person, easy to dislike, but considering the personal abuse he suffered during the depths of the "Friends" dispute and the ongoing residual hatred towards him by a number of other individuals, he is right to be guarded against those that seem to think that anyone has a right to have unfettered access, to what is after all, private property.

It is curious, that DSR&M still engenders such ongoing uninformed criticism, yet the other big "collector" in NSW, Chris Richards, previously at Branxton, never seems to be mentioned, despite amassing another huge collection, again having no public access and recently after selling out the land, sending most of that collection to scrap, with nary a peep of outrage!

For that matter, does anyone have a list of what in Chris Richards collection was scrapped and what was saved, other than the '10' class then went to Dorrigo?
  tezza Chief Commissioner

Members wanted the museum opened in 1988 following the awarding of an $830 000 bicentenal grant, some 18 months or so after the line reopened in 1986.
Jones and his handpicked henchmen refused to co-operate with the working members, how many millions of dollars in income has the museum lost in the last 26 years due to this?
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Richmond Vic
On the topic of funding, all acquisitions, transport and care and maintenance and funded purely from the members pockets.
12CSVT


. . .direct contrast to that of the local community who demonstrate their support, financially, time and again.
12CSVT

Which statement is correct?


The delays in achieving public opening are purely down to the local council's intransigence and lack of support
12CSVT

 This must be the only Council in Australia which is against a tourist attraction opening . . . unless, of course, there are genuine concerns about safety et al, which have not been properly addressed.

It is curious, that DSR&M still engenders such ongoing uninformed criticism, yet the other big "collector" in NSW, Chris Richards, previously at Branxton, never seems to be mentioned, despite amassing another huge collection, again having no public access and recently after selling out the land, sending most of that collection to scrap, with nary a peep of outrage!
12CSVT

Did he advertise a museum?
  Bogong Chief Commissioner

Location: Essendon Aerodrome circa 1980
As a Mexican, I'm not qualified to really have a view, but I have to ask why it has taken 30 years... and counting... for this "museum" to open to the public and it's been 25 years since that damming ABC documentary went to air.

* Has this bloke even attended a TAFE or uni course in museum curation or is he just hoarding train stuff? A "collection of stuff" is not a museum, it needs to be arranged and presented by a proper curator who knows about this sort of thing.

* Let's face it, if he hasn't opened in 30 years and isn't close to opening anytime soon, it just isn't going to happen. Any listed company or a club with shareholders would have replaced a CEO or president with a record like Jones in a tenth of that time. Keith Jones is not a young man, so maybe the first time people will get to see this "collection of stuff" will be when his executors auction off his deceased estate?
  allambee Chief Train Controller

As a Mexican, I'm not qualified to really have a view, but I have to ask why it has taken 30 years... and counting... for this "museum" to open to the public and it's been 25 years since that damming ABC documentary went to air.
Bogong

Well, 12CSTV from Tasmania seems to be qualified in defending in undefensible‎‎ Dorrigo "line". He's been doing so for at least 14 years on various railway discussion forums. At least Trevor faded away. Go look on Aus.rail for their comments from a decade and half ago.
Now I just trying to find the Aus.rail thread where one of them remarked that they were "quite confident" that the museum would be open to the public in around 2 years. I think that remark was made around 1998-2000.

From Aus.rail I've found this, part of the Supreme Court outcome. Has the Dorrigo museum carried out all of this ruling?

Pre DSRM Ltd - up to late 1989 collection owned by old group
DSRM Ltd formed late 1989 - new aquisitions owned by DSR&M Ltd
50 acres - title in name of Fenit Holdings P/L (K. Jones + 1 other)
3½ acres and house - title in name of K. Jones
50 acres and 3½ acres paid by members of old group & DSRM Ltd
From DSR&M Ltd Newsletter No.1/1999 - the DSR&M Ltd / GMR Settlement
made it a bit clearer. Regarding ownership issues, both sides agreed to
support Supreme Court Orders which said:
--------------------------------------------------------------------
(a) declare that Keith Jones holds on trust, for the members for the
time being of the DSR&M (the "old group"), the locomotive collection,
rolling stock and other plant and equipment acquired by the DSR&M since
its formation, along with three and one-half acres of land at Dorrigo;
(b) declare that Fenit Holdings P/L holds on trust for the members for
the time being of the DSR&M fifty acres of land at Dorrigo;
(c) dissolve the DSR&M (the "old group");
(d) order that Keith Jones transfer to GMR the full legal and beneficial
ownership of the property referred to in Clause 5.1 (an attached
schedule);
(e) order that Keith Jones and Fenit Holdings P/L transfer the full
legal and beneficial ownership of all other property held upon trust for
the members for the time being of DSR&M, apart from the property
transferred to GMR to either (as determined by Keith Jones): (i) the
trustees of a charitable trust to be constituted and known as the
Dorrigo Railway Museum Trust; or (ii) a nominee determined by Keith
Jones; or, failing that determination and transfer within 24 months, to
DSR&M Limited.
  Duffy Chief Commissioner

Location: ACT
Re the loco conditions, can anyone inform us as to whether the boilers are still lagged? Ie Is there insulating material (asbestos sheeting or otherwise) between the cladding and the actual boiler plate?

There are also areas where the oil will not reach, such as the areas of boiler plate on the firebox that lie against the frame.  You'd be mad to throw a match in any of them without ascertaining the thickness of that plate first.
  2811 Train Controller

Location: Brisbane
I was about to mention the lagging. You can throw all the oil at the locos that you want but 30 plus years of wet lagging wrapped around steel boilers isn't going to help at all.  Those boilers will all be ruined,  they must be severely rusted especially underneath the barrel.  Also how many millions of dollars would it cost alone just to paint every vehicle there?  Most preservation groups have, over the last 5-10 years started clearing out the unwanted and unusable items so they can focus their resources on items that are of use. It's sad to say but eventually, it the distant future a fair lot of what's at Dorrigo will end up being scrapped.  I can't believe they bought a severely damaged and no operational crane recently, what could they possibly want with that?
  tezza Chief Commissioner

All the boilers at Dorrigo still have their asbestos lagging intact with the exception of 3028 which had the lagging around the firebox removed  in 1985 to replace broken sidestays and for a subsequent boiler inspection.
Dorrigo members will argue that all the locomotives metal cladding has been sealed with silicon sealant to keep out the water but the locos would have had 20 years or more worth of wet insulation before this treatment occurred.
  Duffy Chief Commissioner

Location: ACT
All the boilers at Dorrigo still have their asbestos lagging intact with the exception of 3028 which had the lagging around the firebox removed in 1985 to replace broken sidestays and for a subsequent boiler inspection.
Dorrigo members will argue that all the locomotives metal cladding has been sealed with silicon sealant to keep out the water but the locos would have had 20 years or more worth of wet insulation before this treatment occurred.
tezza

You can seal the cladding as much as you want, you're still going attract a degree of moisture which will ensure that the plate goes back to nature over time.  The only way you could be certain 100% is to strip the locomotives, treat the surfaces and then reinstall the cladding (minus the insulation).  This is easier said then done obviously given the asbestos problem and you're still going to have the issue of the parts of the plate that cannot be accessed without removing the boiler from the frame.
  12CSVT Chief Commissioner

Location: Drowning in accreditation red tape!
Members wanted the museum opened in 1988 following the awarding of an $830 000 bicentenal grant, some 18 months or so after the line reopened in 1986.
Jones and his handpicked henchmen refused to co-operate with the working members, how many millions of dollars in income has the museum lost in the last 26 years due to this?
tezza

The museum would have indeed been long opened by now if the "Friends" group hadn't singlehandedly destroyed all progress the organisation had made to that point. I would hardly expect a grant to be given to an organisation that was on the point of destruction by a bunch of hostile disaffected persons that weren't happy enough to simply leave, but decided to take the most unprecedented vicious legal action to nuke what they left behind.

So what did the "Friends" go on to achieve in the interim? Stuff all.

There have been a couple of "provisional" grants offered since, but they were so strictly "tied" to such inflexibly onerous conditions that DSR&M just weren't able to fulfil the conditions - hence the "grants" couldn't be accepted, as much as they wanted to.
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Richmond Vic
I note with interest that 12CSVT has ignored my question about where the money really comes from.
He has also failed completely to rebut the evidence put up by allambee.
I think he lives in cloud cuckoo land.
  seniorcit Locomotive Fireman

I note with interest that 12CSVT has ignored my question about where the money really comes from.
He has also failed completely to rebut the evidence put up by allambee.
I think he lives in cloud cuckoo land.
Valvegear


Hear , Hear !!!

Well said indeed !!!

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