Vline service crashes into Metro Train at Galvin

 
  freightgate Minister for Railways

Location: Albury, New South Wales
Driver error.

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  woodford Chief Commissioner

So driver error, or an incredibly pathetic safe-working system?
ZH836301


There's not enough good evidence to make a judgment that will be fair to all parties. Most of the current facts are coming from heresay, such an evidence source is VERY questionable.

To fix a problem correctly conjecture is useless, the proper facts MUST be known.

Hmmmmmmmmmm, A 7 car VLocity moving at 25 ft/sec posses around 600 million ft pds of kinetic energy. If an impact pulled up the train in 20 feet, that would produce a force of around 10,000 tons at the point of impact. More than enough force to produce the damage in the photos on Vicsig.

It WILL be interesting to see the report.

woodford
  KRviator Moderator

Location: Up the front
Driver error.
"freightgate"


I'm sorry, I must've missed the part where you were appointed to PTSV...

Prove it, or shut up.
  Madjikthise Deputy Commissioner

Correct Exclamation

The VLocity stopped at the red signal behind the Comeng and as is normal safe-working practice the VLocity proceeded at a speed not exceeding 25KPH.

From what I've heard...(reliable source) the driver of the disabled Comeng was required to walk to the rear of the train, climb up to the drivers cab, break a lead seal and turn on the rear red marker lights.

However and there is some conjecture here... the driver appeared to be unwilling to walk back along the tracks as on one side is the SG and the other side is the down line, an unsafe work environment to enter due to the tracks.

My source has spoken to the V/Line driver and the driver is certain he was NOT exceeding 25KPH.
He did NOT see the rear of the Comeng until it was too late to stop.

Mike.
The Vinelander

I will be very surprised if the speed turns out to be 25km/h. At that speed in that section the Comeng could have been painted black and you would have seen it This one had a bright yellow cowling and the v/line train is also supposed to be using high beam in that location.
  X'Trapolis-904M Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
and i think comengs have high vis paint as well
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
Just some questions for those in the know:

a/ If the trip is forced, or fails (say on its own accord), do the signalers know (crossovers too for that matter)?
b/ Is the system capable of picking up on any faults within itself and adjusting accordingly?
c/ If a train is incorrectly tripped (eg. vandalism, trip fault) will the system hold following trains?
d/ How does Vline receive its signalling information?
e/ Is a Vlocity capable of stopping itself from danger, or is it up to the driver to react?

I assume the answer to c/ is yes, until the train is detected passing the next signal.
  duttonbay Minister for Railways

item (a) - I'm not certain whether the signallers would be notified if an automatic signal's trip was forced or failed, however for a home signal they would not get the confirmation that the signal cleared. Likewise for crossovers - if the signaller flipped the switch to change the crossover, (s)he would not see the route set if the crossover failed to operate.

Regarding (c), It doesn't matter whether a train is tripped, stopped, or moving, it's presence will still be detected and therefore the signals protecting it will hold following trains.  If the signal behind the train is an automatic signal then the driver is permitted to pass subject to the rules about due caution, ability to stop within half the distance, max speed, etc, as had been discussed previously.
  ab123 Chief Train Controller

e) All V/Line stock is fitted with TPWS which will stop a train if a signal is passed at stop and is fitted with TPWS equipment. However in the metro area there are very few locations where TPWS equipment exists. In this instance front memory the last lot of TPWS equipment is on the down side of Werribee.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Good pickup Mitch!



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdZnKBpJT5Y
  Pressman Spirit of the Vine
  seb2351 Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
Good pickup Mitch!



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdZnKBpJT5Y
bevans








Hmmmmm, That guy nearest to the tow chain certainly is brave. Having seen what happens when a wagon tow chain snaps, I don't think it would have ended well if it went wrong there.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Hmmmmm, That guy nearest to the tow chain certainly is brave. Having seen what happens when a wagon tow chain snaps, I don't think it would have ended well if it went wrong there.
seb2351

That was my first reaction too although 'brave' wasn't the word I was thinking of. Perhaps he had a spare head in stock somewhere.

Given the mob standing around, one would have thought someone would have pointed out the error of his ways. Perhaps his train proof (safety) shirt or crash hat provided sufficient protection.Rolling Eyes
  woodford Chief Commissioner

That was my first reaction too although 'brave' wasn't the word I was thinking of. Perhaps he had a spare head in stock somewhere.

Given the mob standing around, one would have thought someone would have pointed out the error of his ways. Perhaps his train proof (safety) shirt or crash hat provided sufficient protection.Rolling Eyes
YM-Mundrabilla


He's actually quite safe, if one has a carefull look he is standing on the outside edge of the next track so he's at least 4.5 metres from the chain.
When a chain breaks under these conditions usually one link flies free travelling at high speed it travelling ALONG the line of the force, AWAY from where the man is standing. I have particpated in two instances when chain breaks occured, below is one of them, the other the behavior was similiar.

I was involved in cleaning up a BG derailment at Winton Victoria around 30 or so years ago. A good portion of the wagons were successfully removed back to Benalla, when they got to the ones buried in the ballast. They were using a brand new properly rated 5 ton chain (ie expensive). I soon as I saw them fitting this up I went and stood aprox at the above location, although I was a little further down the embankment. Believing this (correctly) to be the safest location. Now I did point out to the crew that the loco was capable of more than doubling the breaking load of the chain, they removed two more wagons OK, then.........
When the chain broke, the separated link traveled some 100 metres down the line of the track missing the loco by centrmetres and arching hardly at all and hit another of the crew in the chest and knocking him down the embankment (he was OK just shaken although the link did just penetrate the skin, through some overalls)

So essentially where he is standing is one of the few safe places, When they do do something like this they REALLY need to make sure the chain WILL withstand the load AND clear personel along the track, so in the current case with an N class one is looking at at least a 30 ton chain and no people within the track for a couple of hundred metres either side of the work zone.

woodford
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
I still wouldn't stand there.

Though unlikely, if the chain develops any sort of torque when it breaks it's goodbye head.
  Some rail man Junior Train Controller

Location: CIA Headquarters in Washington D.C
Terry Mulder will blame that rusty old chain breaking on Labor just like they did with the problems on the NE line
  Camster Chief Commissioner

Location: Geelong
Terry Mulder will blame that rusty old chain breaking on Labor just like they did with the problems on the NE line
Some rail man

Just like labor blamed Jeff Kennett for 11 years (and he did stuff up the system).
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
On the ABC News this evening, Mulder was held up by East West Link Protesters as he tried to enter a Liberal Party Fundraiser in Melbourne.
  Some rail man Junior Train Controller

Location: CIA Headquarters in Washington D.C
Just like labor blamed Jeff Kennett for 11 years (and he did stuff up the system).
Camster


Labor have a legit point there, anyway most of our rail/road problems stem from 'Jeffed' era of Victoria. E.g Closure of rural lines to pass trains.
  freightgate Minister for Railways

Location: Albury, New South Wales
Kennett not only finished the railways he also sold off most things including the States power assets.

Closed hospitals and put the mentally ill onto the street. He opened up gambling in Victoria and built a casino.

He created a lot of misery for a lot of people.

Now he is chairman of the organisation who is tasking with helping them.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Kennett not only finished the railways he also sold off most things including the States power assets.

Closed hospitals and put the mentally ill onto the street. He opened up gambling in Victoria and built a casino.

He created a lot of misery for a lot of people.

Now he is chairman of the organisation who is tasking with helping them.
freightgate

Maybe there is justice after all with Kennett running Beyond Blue where it seems he is actually doing a good job.
The ironic part of it is that he made such a massive contribution to the problems of so many of its clients.
Perhaps he should be tasked with fixing Metro!
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
Labor have a legit point there, anyway most of our rail/road problems stem from 'Jeffed' era of Victoria. E.g Closure of rural lines to pass trains.
some rail man

Rubbish.
  Heihachi_73 Chief Commissioner

Location: Terminating at Ringwood
He opened up gambling in Victoria and built a casino.
freightgate

I'm pretty sure gambling in Victoria dates back much earlier than the 1990s.
  Trainplanner Chief Commissioner

Location: Along the Line
Given what appears at times to be over the top responses on rail safety issues and I'm surprised that with several incidents previously investigated that the procedures for passing automatic singles displaying a red aspect are not more stringent. People may argue that the current rules and procedures if fully complied to are adequate but as with any incident it is the breakdown of those procedures that invariably sets up the potential for incidents such as this to occur. Whilst it is unacceptable that we there is not uniformity of protection measures and systems between the two operators you would expect in this era of safety and risk that procedures that require a driver of a train when confronted with a red signal of any type to be talked past that signal by train control after control has ascertained the status and location of a preceding train would at least provide some guide for the driver of the following train NOTWITHSTANDING that it remains their responsibility to still proceed with caution and in accordance with the rules so that they are able to stop surprises me. There is always an issue that a driver may then overly rely on such advice but protocols can be established that firmly remind the driver that it is his responsibility. I am aware of recent accident investigation reports that have brought into question the level of communication between drivers and train control and the lack of guiding information that could assist a driver. Yes it's a busy suburban railway but at this time of night rail traffic especially Melbourne bound would have been sufficiently moderate for such additional measures. The investigation findings will of course draw all these aspects out.
  KRviator Moderator

Location: Up the front
So a Driver contacts Control for permission to pass an auto at stop. He gets the ok, but still has to proceed at a restricted speed, doesn't, and smeg-ends the train in front. How is that different to the possibility of that occurring now, with the exception of asking Control?

The existing rules are fine, provided they are complied with. The real investigation needs to focus on why some Drover's don't follow the rules - and to give them the asre before they come to grief. The vast majority of railway rules are written in blood. Many seem to forget that.
  theanimal Chief Commissioner

So a Driver contacts Control for permission to pass an auto at stop. He gets the ok, but still has to proceed at a restricted speed, doesn't, and smeg-ends the train in front. How is that different to the possibility of that occurring now, with the exception of asking Control?

The existing rules are fine, provided they are complied with. The real investigation needs to focus on why some Drover's don't follow the rules - and to give them the asre before they come to grief. The vast majority of railway rules are written in blood. Many seem to forget that.
KRviator

I tend to agree, the rules are there, but compliance is not, when human factors reared its ugly head it became a case that ít is not my fault I stuffed up, its managements fault for not training us'

whilst I would not like to see a full return to the draconian discipline policies of the past, perhaps there is a need to reward those who are compliant and punish those who are not.

If a crew depot was aware that driver X had been suspended WITHOUT PAY for 7 days for failing to pass a signal at stop correctly, then there would be an immediate focus on the rules and their application.

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