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Glue for Powerline bogies

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      Garahbara Station Master

    Location: Northern Rivers, NSW
    Hi Guys,

    Hope you can help.  On cutting off the coupler of a Powerline bogie (I need for my BGB kits SAR CD brake/guards van), I snapped the thing in two.  Nothing I've got seems to glue the thing back together properly.  Just falls apart again at the slightest touch.  Any ideas what sort of glue will glue the plastic that Powerline bogies are made of?

    Taa muchly in advance for any help.
    Posted: 30 Dec 2014 10:42

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      allan Chief Commissioner

    Hi Guys,

    Hope you can help. On cutting off the coupler of a Powerline bogie (I need for my BGB kits SAR CD brake/guards van), I snapped the thing in two. Nothing I've got seems to glue the thing back together properly. Just falls apart again at the slightest touch. Any ideas what sort of glue will glue the plastic that Powerline bogies are made of?

    Taa muchly in advance for any help.
    Garahbara

    I have had success with Selleys Plastics Glue, but your's is a big ask... http://www.selleys.com.au/adhesives/household-adhesive/quick-fix-adhesive/plastics-glue/

    See a related (current) thread http://www.railpage.com.au/f-t11380168.htm

    And tell us how you get on!
    Posted: 30 Dec 2014 11:40
      John_Bushell Chief Commissioner

    Location: Brisbane
    Gara,

    I do not have a Powerline bogie handy to check, but I assume they are made from polyoxymethylene - also know as POM and many brand names including Delrin. The material has many desirable properties, but in your situation it has one undesirable property: it is difficult to bond.

    Wikipedia gives this advice: (Google Delrin you will get this)

    "POM is typically very difficult to bond. Special processes and treatments have been developed to improve bonding. Typically these processes involve surface etching, flame treatment or mechanical abrasion.
    Typical etching processes involve [color=#0b0080]chromic acid at elevated temperatures. DuPont has a patented process for treating acetal homopolymer called satinizing which creates anchor points on the surface, giving an adhesive something to grab. There are also processes involving oxygen plasma and corona discharge.[color=#0b0080][6][/color][color=#0b0080][7][/color][/color]
    Once the surface is prepared, a number of adhesives can be used for bonding. These include [color=#0b0080]epoxies, [color=#0b0080]polyurethanes[/color], and [color=#0b0080]cyanoacrylates[/color]. Epoxies have shown 150-500 psi shear strength on mechanically abraded surfaces and 500-1000 psi on chemically treated surfaces. Cyanoacrylates are useful for bonding to metal, leather, rubber and other plastics.[/color]
    [color=#0b0080]Solvent welding is typically unsuccessful on acetal polymers, due to the excellent solvent resistance of acetal.[/color]
    Thermal welding through various methods has been used successfully on both homopolymer and copolymer."
    No doubt some will have experience and have found a suitable adhesive. Allan, in the post he refers to in the previous post here, gives a suggestion.


    Best regards,
    John
    Posted: 30 Dec 2014 11:58

    Last edited by John_Bushell on 30 Dec 2014 11:59; edited 1 time in total
      a6et Minister for Railways

    Hi Guys,

    Hope you can help. On cutting off the coupler of a Powerline bogie (I need for my BGB kits SAR CD brake/guards van), I snapped the thing in two. Nothing I've got seems to glue the thing back together properly. Just falls apart again at the slightest touch. Any ideas what sort of glue will glue the plastic that Powerline bogies are made of?

    Taa muchly in advance for any help.
    Garahbara

    As it depends on the type of Delrin used, its not going to be a real easy job.  I would suggest trying to purchase a new bogie rather than try to repair the existing one.

    The only real success I have had in glueing any type of Delrin, POM or ABS type plastics is by using the glue Micro Weld from Microscale, as its not cheap the bogie option may be cheaper though.

    The item has an extreme hazard warning associated with it, it evaporates very quick also but if you get a good join with it its pretty strong.
    Posted: 30 Dec 2014 19:02
      dthead Site Admin

    Location: Melbourne, Australia
    No idea re glues, Aaron from Sth Australia would be a reliable person to ask.

    One might weld it together, force weld it with a soldering iron, but really unsure as to results.

    Regards,
    David Head
    Posted: 30 Dec 2014 19:34
      railmod Chief Train Controller

    Hi Garahbara,

    I wrote a blog a little while ago (Link to blog) about gluing Styrene to Lima Bogies, not sure if the same material, but it might help. I've also tried ummm 'soldering/welding' delrin together but you need to make sure that the 'weld' does melt the joint together, without melting the part into a blob, as you can end up with a 'cold joint' which can easily break apart . Not sure if either of these methods would really be suitable for anything which needs to content with reasonable structural forces, good luck.

    I've extracted the relevant piece from the blog below:

    "Just as a side point, as per Ian's article I glued a piece of 40th styrene as a bearing point in the bolster, I initially tried superglue/Cryo, but it , naturally, did not really take all that well, if the bogie was flexed it tended to break the bond, then whilst at my local Aldi Store I came across a 'workzone MMA' glue, this to me has worked really well, but I've only seen it there the one time I bought it, but be aware it does have a smell to it, and a shelf life of about 6 months, but I do like the way it works."

    Cheers Alex.
    Posted: 30 Dec 2014 20:55

    Last edited by railmod on 30 Dec 2014 20:55; edited 1 time in total
      a6et Minister for Railways

    As it depends on the type of Delrin used, its not going to be a real easy job. I would suggest trying to purchase a new bogie rather than try to repair the existing one.

    The only real success I have had in glueing any type of Delrin, POM or ABS type plastics is by using the glue Micro Weld from Microscale, as its not cheap the bogie option may be cheaper though.

    The item has an extreme hazard warning associated with it, it evaporates very quick also but if you get a good join with it its pretty strong.
    a6et

    My Apologies as I gave the wrong brand for the glue.  Rather than Microscale the glue is made by Plastruck.

    Plastruck makes a large range of building materials for the modeller including styrene as well as a fair bit of other items made of ABS plastics, that includes such items as I beams & the like, its quite hard to cut & the Plastruck weld glues work well
    Check their U.S site http://www.plastruct.com/ http://www.plastruct.com/Pages/CementGuide.html

    I was able to get the items at both MRRC Blacktown & Bobs Hobbies, I would believe its fairly well available at many hobby shops.
    Posted: 30 Dec 2014 22:40
      ARodH Chief Train Controller

    Location: East Oakleigh, Vic
    I don't believe that I've ever seen the regular suspects of metro Melbourne hobby shops stocking Plastruct's glues, let alone their plastics - aside from a few standards not done by Evergreen.
    Posted: 31 Dec 2014 00:40
      a6et Minister for Railways

    I don't believe that I've ever seen the regular suspects of metro Melbourne hobby shops stocking Plastruct's glues, let alone their plastics - aside from a few standards not done by Evergreen.
    ARodH

    I provided a link to the Plastruck web site a short search of the site also shows up a couple of locations in Melbourne that are listed on their web site.
    Posted: 31 Dec 2014 08:35
      TheBlacksmith Chief Commissioner

    Location: Ankh Morpork
    All plastic glues work on the basis that they partially melt the plastic being glued, thus forming a sort of weld. AFAIK, there is no commonly available solvent for Delrin/Acetal, however Loctite have a glue in their range that will do the job, but good luck trying to get it.

    The makers are a German company called Henkel and have one of the most useless sites I have ever seen, if trying to find a solution to your problem. The best way might be to contact Blackwoods, as they are a seller, and ask them.

    On the subject in hand, my approach would be to try and buy a replacement bogie, forget trying to re-attach the part.
    Posted: 31 Dec 2014 09:07

    Last edited by TheBlacksmith on 31 Dec 2014 09:10; edited 2 times in total
      Garahbara Station Master

    Location: Northern Rivers, NSW
    Thanks for your replies so far.   I'll see what I can come up with. I know it's probably just as easy to get some replacement bogies, but you've gotta try these things.  Anyway, a pic of the BGB kits SAR CD van (minus windows) with SOP bogies on it.  Not sure if the pic will work.  It's a copied link from Facebook.
    Posted: 31 Dec 2014 10:37
      John_Bushell Chief Commissioner

    Location: Brisbane
    .... Loctite have a glue in their range that will do the job, but good luck trying to get it.

    The makers are a German company called Henkel and have one of the most useless sites I have ever seen, if trying to find a solution to your problem. The best way might be to contact Blackwoods, as they are a seller, and ask them.
    TheBlacksmith

    Henkel is the company that owns the Loctite brand.  Blackwoods would be well worth a try as The Blacksmith suggests.  Another reseller of Henkel products that I know of is CBC.

    You are looking at an industrial product and unless you intend to glue several hundred Delrin bogies, I rather think you will find new bogies cheap in comparison to the adhesive.

    Best regards,
    John
    Posted: 31 Dec 2014 22:32
      Iain Chief Commissioner

    Location: Concord, NSW
    Yes but this discussion is also interesting to find out if there is such a glue Mr Blacksmith.

    Iain
    Posted: 01 Jan 2015 09:16
      a6et Minister for Railways

    Henkel is the company that owns the Loctite brand. Blackwoods would be well worth a try as The Blacksmith suggests. Another reseller of Henkel products that I know of is CBC.

    You are looking at an industrial product and unless you intend to glue several hundred Delrin bogies, I rather think you will find new bogies cheap in comparison to the adhesive.

    Best regards,
    John
    John_Bushell

    John

    While the original question dealt with bogies & how to glue them, the use of the associated types of plastics under different names such as ABS is something that extends further for the modeller.  

    Almost all the new steam models that have been announced use ABS in some parts of the model, some for the boiler & some for the tender.  Going back to earlier models such as the Eureka garratt, many of the parts were done in ABS or similar, & a fair few of the detail parts fell off with a lot of difficulty in finding a method to secure them back on, that is if you could find the missing bits.

    Glues that can be used to secure these bits back on are something that is needed, so the cost is just another one that will be seen as a need for the modeller & not just for one item.
    Posted: 01 Jan 2015 09:35
      allan Chief Commissioner

    Glues for ABS are readily available. Tetra, from Simply Glues, is the one that I use.
    Posted: 01 Jan 2015 10:16
      David Peters Dr Beeching

    Location: "With Hey Boy".
    About the only successful way to join the two pieces is by mechanical means a piece of plastic or metal and drill a hole into each piece and use small number 2 screws to hold it together. However it has to be an accurate alignment of both halves. Not easily done. The best move is junk it and get some kind of bogie that is similar and buy a set of them to use. The Powerline bogie would be too small anyway for a CD brakevan, Rapido have similar types in their range!

    https://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/606-102022
    Posted: 02 Jan 2015 02:06
      Garahbara Station Master

    Location: Northern Rivers, NSW
    Thanks guys for the advice and info.  I tired once more without success.  The nice clean snap is now wrecked so won't sit together nicely now anyway.  So looks like it's new bogies for me.
    Posted: 08 Jan 2015 09:48
      Lloyd1952 Locomotive Fireman

    Location: Sydney, Australia
    If you go to the Powerline website they do list certain spares. Not sure if they have the one you are after.
    http://www.powerline.com.au
    They  have an online shop or maybe your local hobby shop might have better alternatives. eg Casula Hobbies list a number of bogies http://www.casulahobbies.com.au/catalog/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=bogie&sort=4a&page=2

    Lloyd
    Posted: 08 Jan 2015 13:37
      Garahbara Station Master

    Location: Northern Rivers, NSW
    If you go to the Powerline website they do list certain spares. Not sure if they have the one you are after.
    http://www.powerline.com.au
    They  have an online shop or maybe your local hobby shop might have better alternatives. eg Casula Hobbies list a number of bogies http://www.casulahobbies.com.au/catalog/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=bogie&sort=4a&page=2

    Lloyd
    Lloyd1952
    Lloyd,

    Thanks for that info.  The bogies I've got on it will do for the time being. They just clip in/out.  So will wait til I next "go to town" for a bit of a spending spree. Smile

    Alan.
    Posted: 09 Jan 2015 12:17

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