Peco PL-11 surface mount point motors

 
  Roachie Chief Commissioner

Location: Kadina SA (formerly NSW)
I've just received some of these point motors in the mail; never used them before.

The instructions don't mention whether or not the small spring in the Peco point mechanism needs to be removed (as is the case with the other/larger Peco point motors).

So, does anybody on here have any experience with the side/surface mounted Peco PL-11 and can advise me whether the spring needs to be removed from between the point blades please? I assume "yes", but not sure. These are for my brother's layout in Narrandera and I need to inform him what to do.

Thanks,

Roachie

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  Piston Train Controller

The PL11 has a built in spring to hold the throwbar when extended across. There is a spring under a flap over the throwbar. Remove this cover and spring and retain the spring in the points.

Its easier if you need to recycle the point in the future to keep the spring in position. The spring on the points can also be tensioned by adjusting a plastic slider between the point blades.
  Albert Chief Commissioner

I used them straight out of the packet, no mods at all.
  Captain Underpants Train Controller

I used them straight out of the packet, no mods at all.
Albert
That's what I thought Albert. Just hook them up and away you go. No removal of any spring.
I use Tortoise myself and yes you have to remove the spring in the point.
  Roachie Chief Commissioner

Location: Kadina SA (formerly NSW)
Thanks gents.....much appreciated.

Roachie
  sol Assistant Commissioner

Location: Evanston Gardens SA
One does not have to remove the spring from Peco points using Tortoise or Cobalt if using a pushbutton/non-locking toggle& letting the spring do the job of the normal stall action  but of course one does not get the slow action but a click over. They work OK having seen a layout that uses that principle.

The only problem with side mounted Peco solenoids is no contacts for frog switching, etc without using either a microswitch that is operated via the tiebar or use one of these
http://www.heathcote-electronics.co.uk/PtIndicr.htm#POINT INDICATOR-RELAY

With the PL11 you have to make sure the operating piece is in line with the tiebar.

Currently my layout has 45  Peco PL 11's installed with at least another 6 to go.
  Roachie Chief Commissioner

Location: Kadina SA (formerly NSW)
One does not have to remove the spring from Peco points using Tortoise or Cobalt if using a pushbutton/non-locking toggle& letting the spring do the job of the normal stall action  but of course one does not get the slow action but a click over. They work OK having seen a layout that uses that principle.

The only problem with side mounted Peco solenoids is no contacts for frog switching, etc without using either a microswitch that is operated via the tiebar or use one of these
http://www.heathcote-electronics.co.uk/PtIndicr.htm#POINT INDICATOR-RELAY

With the PL11 you have to make sure the operating piece is in line with the tiebar.

Currently my layout has 45  Peco PL 11's installed with at least another 6 to go.
sol
Sol,

The Tortoise machines have the necessary contact to break the power supply once they reach their full throw....so no need to have momentary contact switches regardless of the type of turnout being used. Once the Tortoise has reached it's "other end", it cuts power to the motor.

Roachie
  sol Assistant Commissioner

Location: Evanston Gardens SA
Roachie, I was not sure on the timing of the contacts within Tortoise if they allowed the full throw to go over before the power is removed so I just tested on and found the power is removed just after half way of the throw so I don't think that idea is feasible.
  FirstStopCentral Chief Train Controller

Sol,

The Tortoise machines have the necessary contact to break the power supply once they reach their full throw....so no need to have momentary contact switches regardless of the type of turnout being used. Once the Tortoise has reached it's "other end", it cuts power to the motor.

Roachie
Roachie
There's nothing in a Tortoise to 'break the power', they continue to draw a small current and the motor 'stalls' and continues to push the point blades against the running rail. This is why they are called 'stall type' motors. Removing power from them will allow the pressure against the rail to reduce and the blade will spring back a bit, this may lead to derailing and certainly won't provide electrical continuity as reliably. When you power up your layout, you'll see all the points nudge a little as the stall type point motors cut in.

Leaving the Peco springs in place defeats the purpose of using slow-motion motors.

Paul
  sol Assistant Commissioner

Location: Evanston Gardens SA
Granted that there is no in-built "switching power off" facility like Lemarco  have but as Roachie posted, I assumed he was talking about wiring the operate leads via the in-built change over switches  but the contacts do not allow that as I found by doing the test.

Yes Tortoise bounce back a bit if de-powered but Cobalt don't due to different gearing.

Slow motion motors are perfect for hand made points/turnouts as it saves the ker-thump of solenoids on tiebars   but also considering cost ,  Tortoise ( with two changeover switches)  from USA can costs a lot less in $ & time than equivalent Peco P- 10 solenoids & PL-15 microswitches from the UK when 70-80 points/turnouts are in use.

My friend who left the Peco springs in, was not at all concerned about not having the slow moving action as he is using Code 100 rail anyway.

One of the rules of the hobby - each to his own - what works for him - good .
  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".
Granted that there is no in-built "switching power off" facility like Lemarco  have but as Roachie posted, I assumed he was talking about wiring the operate leads via the in-built change over switches  but the contacts do not allow that as I found by doing the test.

Yes Tortoise bounce back a bit if de-powered but Cobalt don't due to different gearing.

Slow motion motors are perfect for hand made points/turnouts as it saves the ker-thump of solenoids on tiebars   but also considering cost ,  Tortoise ( with two changeover switches)  from USA can costs a lot less in $ & time than equivalent Peco P- 10 solenoids & PL-15 microswitches from the UK when 70-80 points/turnouts are in use.

My friend who left the Peco springs in, was not at all concerned about not having the slow moving action as he is using Code 100 rail anyway.

One of the rules of the hobby - each to his own - what works for him - good .
sol
One good thing about your friends layout Sol is that if a point motor should give up the ghost and need to be removed the point will still operate as a hand thrown point again till a new Tortoise or Cobalt can be sourced to replace the defective one. Not that these motors get defective very often though.
  Scottyd72 Beginner

Location: Sydney, Australia
Hi, can I ask all of you, can you use a conventional double throw switch to control a Peco PL-11?
  sol Assistant Commissioner

Location: Evanston Gardens SA
Not directly as all solenoid motors need a pulse of power  otherwise the coils will burn out- you can use a non-locking toggle  centre off.

Of course you can put these between switch and solenoid
http://dccconcepts.com/index_files/DCCmasterswitch.htm
  Scottyd72 Beginner

Location: Sydney, Australia
Ah thanks Sol
  ARodH Chief Train Controller

Location: East Oakleigh, Vic
I'm going to use a few of these on my layout, however my first wiring attempt has me puzzled. I've attached and wired the crossover up according to page 3 of http://www.dccconcepts.com/vamr/controlling-solenoid-pointwork-using-cobalt-s-levers the first few changes has both points in the crossover changing correctly, then a few changes more the furthest PL11 from the CDU stops operating correctly causing the point blades to stop in mid travel. The other PL11 has no problem.
Tapping the switch lever or re-throwing it, eventually gets the point to the desired position. Although, if I was operating a train at the time and didn't notice the incomplete point change a derailment would occur.

I'm thinking that it's either down to gauge of wire I'm using (18-24 awg) or I need to raise the hight of the stalling motor.

Also like most I'm using the PL11s in an effort to minimise the number of holes through the board. And for those advocates of stall motors, I have acquired some Cobalt motors, however they're too long for my use in their normal orientation.
  LaidlayM Chief Commissioner

Location: Research
Sol,

The Tortoise machines have the necessary contact to break the power supply once they reach their full throw....so no need to have momentary contact switches regardless of the type of turnout being used. Once the Tortoise has reached it's "other end", it cuts power to the motor.

Roachie
Roachie
Roachie,

I use some Tortoise but I thought they were "stall action" with power always applied to the motor, at least that's how I have wired them.  I don't have any over centre springs as I mainly Shinohara (NKP) turnouts in staging and self built on stage.  I do use one SPDT set of contacts to power the crossing (frog in US lingo).

Mark
  Roachie Chief Commissioner

Location: Kadina SA (formerly NSW)
Roachie,

I use some Tortoise but I thought they were "stall action" with power always applied to the motor, at least that's how I have wired them.  I don't have any over centre springs as I mainly Shinohara (NKP) turnouts in staging and self built on stage.  I do use one SPDT set of contacts to power the crossing (frog in US lingo).

Mark
LaidlayM
Mark,

On reflection I reckon you're correct.....they are known as "stall motors" which means they have power going to them all the time.
Sorry for misleading everybody..... (that must have been a while ago as this is an old thread).

Roachie
  ARodH Chief Train Controller

Location: East Oakleigh, Vic
An update on my usage of Peco PL-11's, the ill tempered crossover was due to a faulty Cobalt-S lever with a momentary switch on only one side of it's action. Any other recalcitrant PL-11s were usually due to wiring glitches or being fastened down too tightly.

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