Do you think station staff should wear hi-vis vest while flagging trains?

 
  Junction box Chief Commissioner

Location: newy
I think they should during flagging but not at all times like some CSA insist on.

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  Raichase Captain Rant!

Location: Sydney, NSW
Only qualified CSAs can display green flags.
nswtrains
CSAs qualified in Station ROW duties (ie all of them) can show green flags to give ROW to engine crew.

Only safeworking qualified CSAs can use a greenflag in a handsignalling role, when winding points or directing train crew to pass signals at stop under the instruction of the signaller for that yard.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Still more unexplained acronyms ROW and CSA ????????
  Raichase Captain Rant!

Location: Sydney, NSW
Still more unexplained acronyms ROW and CSA ????????
YM-Mundrabilla
Perhaps instead of acting incredulous, you might apply the context to the acronym and/or reference other statements in this thread in which the full terms for these acronyms has been stated. It's not a long bow to draw in a thread discussing "Right of Way" and "Customer Service Attendants" to assume that the acronyms, when used in the same context as their full meanings might have some correlation...

I can understand confusion when acronyms are used for the first time in a thread with no basis to figure them out, but c'mon. It's not rocket surgery in this instance.

If you're really having so much trouble, asking politely for people to expand rather than using umpteen question marks in mock horror might be a better approach to make, perhaps people will be more inclined to assist you with your query.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Perhaps instead of acting incredulous, you might apply the context to the acronym and/or reference other statements in this thread in which the full terms for these acronyms has been stated. It's not a long bow to draw in a thread discussing "Right of Way" and "Customer Service Attendants" to assume that the acronyms, when used in the same context as their full meanings might have some correlation...

I can understand confusion when acronyms are used for the first time in a thread with no basis to figure them out, but c'mon. It's not rocket surgery in this instance.

If you're really having so much trouble, asking politely for people to expand rather than using umpteen question marks in mock horror might be a better approach to make, perhaps people will be more inclined to assist you with your query.
Raichase
I have re-read the thread and am still unable to see where the acronyms have been defined. (We do not all live in Sydney in case you were not aware.)
  smithagain Junior Train Controller

Just like the feedback was taken into account for the new uniforms.
Blackadder
Ha! Exactly. I seriously doubt any station staff or crew ever suggested orange and grey polyester!
  smithagain Junior Train Controller

I have re-read the thread and am still unable to see where the acronyms have been defined. (We do not all live in Sydney in case you were not aware.)
YM-Mundrabilla
You are correct they weren't defined. Funny thing is, when I started the thread I deliberately chose not to use the industry terms, to make the topic more accessible to all.
  nswtrains Chief Commissioner

CSAs qualified in Station ROW duties (ie all of them) can show green flags to give ROW to engine crew.

Only safeworking qualified CSAs can use a greenflag in a hand signalling role, when winding points or directing train crew to pass signals at stop under the instruction of the signaler for that yard.
Raichase
About the only place you will find a green flag on some stations is in the emergency cabinet. At Katoomba I have only noted a white flag being used to give ROW to any train. Most of the new CSAs have no idea where a green flag is used. Not a whole lot of CSAQs around these days as none are being trained as such, unless appointed as a yard shunter at say Penrith etc. It is usually up to the SM or DM to carry out such duties, especially if on back shift (Hmm that would mean the DM).

Know a DM, who was the only person on duty at a station, who had to go and wind over some defective points a fair way away. The crowd of passengers on the station thought the DM was abandoning ship and practically lynched said DM.

Really difficult to get training in these safe working duties these days unless appointed as a DM on NSW Trains. Don't know what the situation is with Sydney Trains. I was asked to do a back shift at a station and could not do because not a CSAQ.
  apw5910 Chief Commissioner

Location: Location: Location.
I was TLA'ed the other day because a TLA said that I couldn't TLA because my TLA wasn't TLA'ed. I ended up TLA'ing with another TLA so he could TLA and then we could TLA it together.
  Raichase Captain Rant!

Location: Sydney, NSW
I have re-read the thread and am still unable to see where the acronyms have been defined. (We do not all live in Sydney in case you were not aware.)
YM-Mundrabilla
You're saying you DON'T live in Sydney? I'm completely gobsmacked, I assumed the entire world revolved around Sydney. Rolling Eyes.

I never said the terms were explicitly defined, I said that if you applied the context to the acronyms compared to the earlier statements in the thread, you could easily discern their meaning. Obviously this proved to be too challenging for you (it's not a problem for Sydney residents). When someone mentions a Customer Service Attendant with a flag, and someone else goes on to say that CSA only uses certain flags for certain roles, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that maybe CSA means Customer Service Attendant. It sure as heck doesn't mean Creative Sign Architecture.

Perhaps if people engaged their brains more often instead of playing dumb, this forum would actually discuss things of interest instead of some of the garbage that goes on currently.
  s3_gunzel Not a gunzel developer

Location: Western Sydney, AU
Can someone confirm what TLA means. Been going hard at working it out for a few hours and can't work it out.
  BigBoy2015 Station Master

Can someone confirm what TLA means. Been going hard at working it out for a few hours and can't work it out.
s3_gunzel

Three Letter Acronym

FLA = Four Letter Acronym
  meh Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
Is the Hi-vis really necessary though?

consider the reasons for wearing it is to make yourself more visible in potentially dangerous situations or environments. e.g construction sites with large vehicles rolling back and forth. The point that most alleged 'safety' people forget is that the wearer cannot put them on thinking they are invincible and do what they want. If you step in front of a moving 50t truck, wearing hi-vis isnt going to stop you being a smear on the road (though it would make picking up the pieces easier...). Same as on the railways. But if you arent working around them, why would you need them? If you're argument is that it's for safety reasons, then please mr union stand at every ticket barrier handing out safety vests to every and all passengers, as they are in the same situation as the station staff in regards to proximity to trains. In fact station staff would be much more switched on than many commuters.

So I would agree that there is absolutely no need for station staff to wear them. That said, they should though have them readily available if the need did present itself.
  Junction box Chief Commissioner

Location: newy
Do ASM even have safeworking these days in case of emergencies?
  Raichase Captain Rant!

Location: Sydney, NSW
So I would agree that there is absolutely no need for station staff to wear them. That said, they should though have them readily available if the need did present itself.
meh
Consider the argument is that the high-vis is to readily identify the staff member to operational train crew so they are able to quickly sight the CSA and respond to any relevant hand signals. This is especially important when an emergency stop hand signal is being given.
  s3_gunzel Not a gunzel developer

Location: Western Sydney, AU
Consider the argument is that the high-vis is to readily identify the staff member to operational train crew so they are able to quickly sight the CSA and respond to any relevant hand signals. This is especially important when an emergency stop hand signal is being given.
Raichase
My argument was slightly different, pertaining to the customer being able to spot the relavent (on duty) staff member at any given time. But yes, train crew as well.
  nswtrains Chief Commissioner

Do ASM even have safeworking these days in case of emergencies?
Junction box
No such thing as an ASM. SMs only exist on larger NSW Trains stations, whilst DMs do the rest. On Sydney Trains there are Cluster Station Managers (not correct term) and all Sydney Train stations are run by SDMs.

DMs on NSW Trains stations have emergency safe working duties plus a few remaining CSAQs.

Frankly, the issue of hi vis vests has nothing to do with anybody other than those involved in the issue. The opinions of others is not worth a pinch of poo and will have no impact on the eventual decision.

To my mind, NSW Trains staff will retain them. Some NSW Trains CSAs also test crossing gates on a daily basis and they are definitely required in those circumstances so they are visible to motorists.

The Blue Mountains is often subject thick fog and vests are very useful in those weather conditions. One day last week the mist did not clear until almost midday. Very different conditions to Sydney Trains and I guess such weather events are common in the southern Highlands also.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
On stations, No, not needed. Just wear a suitable uniform that is clear. This is probably where a hat also helps.
  theanimal Chief Commissioner


To my mind, NSW Trains staff will retain them. Some NSW Trains CSAs also test crossing gates on a daily basis and they are definitely required in those circumstances so they are visible to motorists.

nswtrains
Are you sure this happens? many years ago I was under the impression that active control level crossings were either tested by contractors or remotely by computor.

Happy to be wrong but not sure you are right?
  Throughwestmail Train Controller

Are you sure this happens? many years ago I was under the impression that active control level crossings were either tested by contractors or remotely by computor.

Happy to be wrong but not sure you are right?
theanimal
Rod, Faulconbridge road crossing tested by station staff from Springwood or Faulco, Blackheath by Blackheath or Mt Vic staff , Medlow Bath by Katoomba and Bell by Mt Vic station staff.
  Raichase Captain Rant!

Location: Sydney, NSW
the issue of hi vis vests has nothing to do with anybody other than those involved in the issue. The opinions of others is not worth a pinch of poo and will have no impact on the eventual decision.
nswtrains
*applause*

This is exactly what I've been thinking the whole way through this thread.

For the purposes of generating a discussion about their usefulness and relevance in this modern age, then it's of interest, hence the thread. However when all of the armchair experts who've never worked a train in their life come in and tell everyone what the railways should do because they're the experts and everyone else is stupid, then it just becomes more of the same.

Well said.
  Blackadder Chief Commissioner

Location: Not the ECRL
*applause*

This is exactly what I've been thinking the whole way through this thread.

For the purposes of generating a discussion about their usefulness and relevance in this modern age, then it's of interest, hence the thread. However when all of the armchair experts who've never worked a train in their life come in and tell everyone what the railways should do because they're the experts and everyone else is stupid, then it just becomes more of the same.

Well said.
"Raichase"


They sound like the off the street Managers Wink

Seriously to those who don't have to deal with this on a regular basis, yes your opinions are fine but just remember they are only opinions with no operational experience to back it up.
  s3_gunzel Not a gunzel developer

Location: Western Sydney, AU
I don't deal with safe working on a regular basis (heck I'm not even employed by the railways). I appreciate what I'm posting is opinion and that's all it should be taken as. Not something official.
  Raichase Captain Rant!

Location: Sydney, NSW
I don't deal with safe working on a regular basis (heck I'm not even employed by the railways). I appreciate what I'm posting is opinion and that's all it should be taken as. Not something official.
s3_gunzel
That should indeed be encouraged! The sharing of opinions is why we have a forum in the first place. Where I (and many other people) get annoyed, is when people with only a layperson viewpoint and the information available to a layperson, starts saying the railways are "wrong" and that they "should" be doing this or that. Obviously they know better than the people paid to make the decisions. I've seen it in many infrastructure threads, in which "expert" gunzels are explaining that the signals are in the wrong place, or the speedboards are too fast/slow, or the method of construction is completely wrong. Because they know better from the warmth of their armchair.

Please don't stop having and expressing opinions s3_gunzel, often your posts contribute more to a thread than many others do.

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