Parramatta to Central subway

 
Topic moved from Sydney Suburban by dthead on 24 Feb 2015 21:51
  eddyb Chief Train Controller

Might have to get the Chinese to build it at $78m per km

It is now turning out that the average cost of each km of subway works out to about $78 million and the metro rail systems in China's big cities like Beijing and Shanghai are struggling to maintain, unable to service vast loans procured for the construction.

http://www.firstpost.com/business/economy/metro-rails-cost-more-than-space-travel-chinese-planners-398348.html

Sponsored advertisement

  eddyb Chief Train Controller

RTT_Rules
Personally I would rather travel to experience the worlds best connected city than have a look at the old bridge or an impractical opera house but perhaps I am a bit strange.



It has me beat where the NWRL cost comes from but I suspect it would be legal costs and consultation with the NIMBYS


Transtopic
If I wanted to go Parramatta/Central I would not want to go via Epping.

This bigger tunnel in hard rock, also sequentially lined, for the same distance only cost $1,560,000,000 Australian including everything except the signals. http://www.tunneltalk.com/Norway-04Mar2015-TBM-tunnel-contract-award-for-Oslo-Ski-Follo-Railway-Line.php
Admittedly they had a separate tunnel to remove the material but trucking it away would not cost any more than $100,000,000
  Transtopic Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
Transtopic
If I wanted to go Parramatta/Central I would not want to go via Epping.
eddyb
You've misconstrued my remarks eddy.  I wasn't suggesting for a moment that you should travel between Parramatta and Central via Epping.  Of course, it would be absurd.  I was merely pointing out in response to RTT_Rules that the last official estimate of the cost of constructing the Parramatta to Epping Rail Link was $2.6 billion a few years ago and is likely to be well over $3 billion by the time it would be constructed, which is triple the cost of the light rail link between Parramatta and Macquarie Park via Eastwood.  It's all academic now, because the option for the PERL has been cut off as previously proposed stub tunnels at Epping to connect to the new NWRL rapid transit tunnels have been dropped.  The light rail link from Parramatta to Macquarie Park is a far more economical solution for the estimated patronage predicted.  I wasn't talking about Parramatta to Central.
  eddyb Chief Train Controller

Transtopic

Absurd as it sounds I have read some people suggest the NWRL will take the pressure off the western line.



Just as mobile phones are twice as good for half the price so too are new TBM for $50m each and, where surface rail is getting more expensive due to increases in land value and the NIMBYS, subways are getting cheaper as shown in the Norway link above.



Just found this plan https://www.railpage.com.au/news/s/fair-go-for-the-west-metro-train-line-could-solve-housing-shortage that in my opinion is exactly the opposite of what should happen.

Parramatta being the geographical centre of greater Sydney should have direct connection with all the major centres of Sydney as in 50 years it will be the main CBD not an island that takes a person forever on a tram to reach.

The perfect cake has just the right mix of ingredients and so it is with all transport.

Trams in the main streets of CBDs

Buses that take you closer to where you want to go

Cars for places that are not serviced by buses

Cheap express non stop subways radiating from Parramatta to all local CBDs in the city of cities.

Heavy rail to do the milk runs and service the freight trains.

Ferries to service the harbour.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Might have to get the Chinese to build it at $78m per km

It is now turning out that the average cost of each km of subway works out to about $78 million and the metro rail systems in China's big cities like Beijing and Shanghai are struggling to maintain, unable to service vast loans procured for the construction.

http://www.firstpost.com/business/economy/metro-rails-cost-more-than-space-travel-chinese-planners-398348.html
eddyb
There are numerous reasons they can do it for this price and even this cost is questionable if you understand how asian projects are often costed or rather undercosted. By and large, most Australias do not want the same Chinese policey's, work practices and standards applied to Australia projects and hence they will cost alot more than the rubbery numbers quoted above.

For example for the Chinese to do it, it is unlikely not $1 would be spent in this country, ALL and I mean ALL labour and project management would be Chinese, they would expect the land to be given to them. The Chinese workers and Management wouldn't even use the local housing or outlets, everything would come in a container including their beds. I worked on a project in India that had a large component of Chinese supplied technology (power station and some aluminium smelter areas), the only person who slept in a proper house off site was the female Contracts Manager and her accommodation was a shared kitchen and a bedroom about 2.5m x 2.5m. The rest slept in containers and offices on site. Nearly all their food was imported from China.

I do agree that Australia's capital project costs are higher than even other developed countries, but with the mining boom now over and the dollar retreating to where it belongs, then we should see major capital project costs also come down. Back in 2000 projects over $1B were rarely heard of and even more rarely taken seriously and approved. 10 years later the states talk around multi billion projects as normal.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
RTT_Rules
Personally I would rather travel to experience the worlds best connected city than have a look at the old bridge or an impractical opera house but perhaps I am a bit strange.



It has me beat where the NWRL cost comes from but I suspect it would be legal costs and consultation with the NIMBYS


Transtopic
If I wanted to go Parramatta/Central I would not want to go via Epping.

This bigger tunnel in hard rock, also sequentially lined, for the same distance only cost $1,560,000,000 Australian including everything except the signals. http://www.tunneltalk.com/Norway-04Mar2015-TBM-tunnel-contract-award-for-Oslo-Ski-Follo-Railway-Line.php
Admittedly they had a separate tunnel to remove the material but trucking it away would not cost any more than $100,000,000
eddyb
Yes thats fine for you, but you are not the typical foreign tourist coming to Australia.

NWRL project costs are in line with other similar projects either under construction or proposed/costed in Australia over last few years, including road projects. Those same Nimby's and consultants will exist for your project. Hence why I (and others) keep challenging your expected costs as unrealistic.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Transtopic

Absurd as it sounds I have read some people suggest the NWRL will take the pressure off the western line.



Just as mobile phones are twice as good for half the price so too are new TBM for $50m each and, where surface rail is getting more expensive due to increases in land value and the NIMBYS, subways are getting cheaper as shown in the Norway link above.



Just found this plan https://www.railpage.com.au/news/s/fair-go-for-the-west-metro-train-line-could-solve-housing-shortage that in my opinion is exactly the opposite of what should happen.

Parramatta being the geographical centre of greater Sydney should have direct connection with all the major centres of Sydney as in 50 years it will be the main CBD not an island that takes a person forever on a tram to reach.

The perfect cake has just the right mix of ingredients and so it is with all transport.

Trams in the main streets of CBDs

Buses that take you closer to where you want to go

Cars for places that are not serviced by buses

Cheap express non stop subways radiating from Parramatta to all local CBDs in the city of cities.

Heavy rail to do the milk runs and service the freight trains.

Ferries to service the harbour.
eddyb

The NWRL will provide "some" relief, but the word some is highlited as I doubt it would be significant.

If you look at the project people movement mapping there are people in the NW now who travel to the Western line and then to city and lower Nth shore. ~35% (open to correction) of the project users of the NWRL are those expected not to travel past Chatswood on rail. I doubt these will have any impact on the Western line, just bus and cars.

Within 20 - 30 years I believe you will see Paramatta being the centre of its own local LR network with a faster or improved rail connection to the city, it will NOT be the rail hub of Sydney. The NWRL will be extended to connect with the Richmond line, likely Schofields. But the route to the new airport will take it further west the Paramatta.

The Schofields interchange connection may help remove some from going east of Paramatta on the Western main.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
You've misconstrued my remarks eddy.  I wasn't suggesting for a moment that you should travel between Parramatta and Central via Epping.  Of course, it would be absurd.  I was merely pointing out in response to RTT_Rules that the last official estimate of the cost of constructing the Parramatta to Epping Rail Link was $2.6 billion a few years ago and is likely to be well over $3 billion by the time it would be constructed, which is triple the cost of the light rail link between Parramatta and Macquarie Park via Eastwood.  It's all academic now, because the option for the PERL has been cut off as previously proposed stub tunnels at Epping to connect to the new NWRL rapid transit tunnels have been dropped.  The light rail link from Parramatta to Macquarie Park is a far more economical solution for the estimated patronage predicted.  I wasn't talking about Parramatta to Central.
Transtopic
I support the Metro extension from Epping to Parramatta via converted Caringford Line, I would have thought the numbers stacked up but apparently not as both KK ALP and LNP have since dismissed the project (as HR DD) as not viable and best interests of Sydney despite the ALP Feds wanting to fund most of it.

Even with the NWRL going ahead, the Metro branch to Parramatta could still occur, its just not as straight forward and costs more without the stubs in place.

LR is fine, but LR is typically much slower and unlikely to be popular for through traffic with the cattle likely to travel via Nt Straithfield. In some ways I prefer the LR option to go via Eastwood and leave the Carlingford line as is as this still leaves the option open in the future for a Metro connection to Epping.

The absolute must is for a pair of stubs on the NWRL extension to the city to enable the Manly/Nth beaches branch. This has to occur.
  eddyb Chief Train Controller

RTT_Rules

There is a lot of fuel for thought in what you say but there are some points I think that are debatable.


With the end of the resources boom there are unemployed mining people worldwide so wages have been slashed and new technology TBM can handle a bigger range of geology. I notice the number plates on the NWRL workers cars come from all over Australia.

Yes the Chinese say $78/km but what about Norway that also costs $78/km with everything but the signals installed  http://www.tunneltalk.com/Norway-04Mar2015-TBM-tunnel-contract-award-for-Oslo-Ski-Follo-Railway-Line.php



Yes that's fine for you, but you are not the typical foreign tourist coming to Australia.

Perhaps those tourists like me would not bother to come to check out those old icons but would come to experience the best connected city in the world.



LR is fine, but LR is typically much slower and unlikely to be popular for through traffic

That is why I believe the Parramatta CBD should be connected to the centre with fast subways as well as any surface transport.

As I see it now, evidently Baird will easily win the state election and whack his tunnel under the harbour up to Bankstown and it may eventually form a complete circle to Rouse hill and that will be OK provided they leave room in the Centre of Parramatta for a subway station so at a later date it will be possible to put in the radial subways needed to connect all of greater Sydney quickly.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
RTT_Rules

There is a lot of fuel for thought in what you say but there are some points I think that are debatable.


With the end of the resources boom there are unemployed mining people worldwide so wages have been slashed and new technology TBM can handle a bigger range of geology. I notice the number plates on the NWRL workers cars come from all over Australia.

Yes the Chinese say $78/km but what about Norway that also costs $78/km with everything but the signals installed  http://www.tunneltalk.com/Norway-04Mar2015-TBM-tunnel-contract-award-for-Oslo-Ski-Follo-Railway-Line.php



Yes that's fine for you, but you are not the typical foreign tourist coming to Australia.

Perhaps those tourists like me would not bother to come to check out those old icons but would come to experience the best connected city in the world.



LR is fine, but LR is typically much slower and unlikely to be popular for through traffic

That is why I believe the Parramatta CBD should be connected to the centre with fast subways as well as any surface transport.

As I see it now, evidently Baird will easily win the state election and whack his tunnel under the harbour up to Bankstown and it may eventually form a complete circle to Rouse hill and that will be OK provided they leave room in the Centre of Parramatta for a subway station so at a later date it will be possible to put in the radial subways needed to connect all of greater Sydney quickly.

eddyb
European's historically do things cheaper than Oz as their pays are usually lower. Plus they have most of the resources needed for such a tunnel at hand, not half way round the world. Additionally you will see this project contractors are Spainish/Italian and hence will have access to unemployment ridden countries for cheaper labor, cheaper repatriation costs. Potentially they may even do the usual European very cheap labor solution and get from Eastern Europe. We had guys from Slovaka did a specialized lining job in UAE from a German company. Only the Supervisors were German.

The reality is this tunnel will be built in Sydney, not Europe. It will face the same challenges as the NWRL, Brisbane CRR, Perth Airport line, Melbourne metro proposals/E-W link etc. If the prices drop due to falling commodities (which they should and are for other major projects, well this is the case in Dubai where construction Management jobs are now paying 20% and more less than 2008 and I know some projects are going to start because the project owners are basically saying it would maddness not to start now for these reasons), then you will see similar benefits roll across to these other projects. The NWRL may see a cost reduction during the construction phase over the estimate.

The plan is for Paramatta to be the hub of a localised LR network, not metro.

Everyone travels for different reasons, but few travel to look at railway connections. I would dare say most tourists who travel to Sydney dont' venture much west of Darling Harbor unless its to watch cricket/football or go to the blue mountains and the odd eco/farm stay tourist. Hence why most Sydney accommodation is actually in the city.

Future Metro wise, thinking this through some more. The surface rail system will provide the fast access between the two CBD's using improved existing tracks with the fast trains then going to Airport via St Mary's. Probably about 7 stops from St Mary's to city. The NWRL Metro would probably terminate at St Mary's. From the city it will use the Bankstown line and I believe eventually the Inner West line to Lidcombe. Homebush to Lidcombe would be a new pair of lines. With a frequent enough service it should be able to drag off sufficent bodies away from the DD services and provide capacity for more people from further out west.
  eddyb Chief Train Controller

RTT_Rules

According to the tunnelling contract here http://nwrail.transport.nsw.gov.au/The-Project/Tunnelling the 15km of twin tunnels only cost $1.15b which works out at $76m/km which is even cheaper than Norway probably due to the ideal rock and smaller diameter tunnels.



I cannot see why one pair cannot start the western express at the same time as the other pair start the cross Sydney harbour rail tunnel, surely it would be better than have them rusting away in a paddock as they cost $50m each TBM
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
RTT_Rules

According to the tunnelling contract here http://nwrail.transport.nsw.gov.au/The-Project/Tunnelling the 15km of twin tunnels only cost $1.15b which works out at $76m/km which is even cheaper than Norway probably due to the ideal rock and smaller diameter tunnels.



I cannot see why one pair cannot start the western express at the same time as the other pair start the cross Sydney harbour rail tunnel, surely it would be better than have them rusting away in a paddock as they cost $50m each TBM
eddyb
Eddy,
What the tunnel contract states is irrelevant if the contract is $1.15B and the actual project cost is $6B (or what ever the actual). That's your project cost and this is the number you should be using for your CBD to CBD train comparison. Yes you can subtract any specials for the NWRL like the conversion of the ECRL, but I'm sure the CBD to CBD will have its own specials.

I agree with the keep building concept, when finished on NWRL I'd stick them at St Leonards and tell them to keep going. But while they may cost $50m each, this is chicken feed compared to the project cost and interest on the debt created. So the project needs to be done at the right timing to match the NSW taxpayer affordability or end up like Qld and be so in debt these projects become a dream for years to come.

Having thought about it some more, the Metro technology is not suited to your express type CBD to CBD project and would be better off used to remove traffic off the Main west and enable more efficient operations with DD's. ie take over the inner West traffic to allow more efficient use of the 6 tracks by trains from SW and Western lines. It does appear though that apart from building a separate Metro UG along the Inner west, an extra pair of tracks is also needed from Homebush to Grandville, but these need to be DD standard.
  eddyb Chief Train Controller

RTT_Rules

I think that whatever people say here will have no impact on detailed plans already made but as I enjoy a bit of debate may I continue.


After the GFC, Toll truck drivers in America were getting $7 per hour and wanted what we had in Australia and I saw on TV a family man with 3 kids also flipping burgers for $7 per hour also one radio caller said that it was so hard to get the dole there it was not worth applying.


Australia is about to enter its own GFC as when you cut the price of commodities by 50% you do not cut the tax but eliminate it and as an old ex coal miner who has seen three booms I have been predicting this for a couple of years. Everybody thought that the floor for iron ore would be $120 per tonne when the Chinese would close their uneconomical mines but they did not figure on A. a weakening Chinese economy and B. they would rather subsidise those mines than have civil unrest.


I believe the idea of a government is to act like a governor on a diesel to maintain stability so now is the time with approaching unemployment to build infrastructure.




I thought about what you said about a metro single being the wrong type of train and here is what I concluded.


The balance between surface rail and subway will change as land and bridges get more expensive and deep tunnels with large elevators, which  can be located anywhere, become the future and even though I like the old DD trains they are not so good for tunnels because they need an emergency platform in the tunnel and they offer more wind resistance which uses more power and increases the heat problem.


A picture of a Metro style carriage I saw  for the NWRL had conventional double seating on one side and perimeter seats on the other which would suit me as I like to stretch my legs out and am not too worried about sitting next to someone.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
RTT_Rules

I think that whatever people say here will have no impact on detailed plans already made but as I enjoy a bit of debate may I continue.


After the GFC, Toll truck drivers in America were getting $7 per hour and wanted what we had in Australia and I saw on TV a family man with 3 kids also flipping burgers for $7 per hour also one radio caller said that it was so hard to get the dole there it was not worth applying.


Australia is about to enter its own GFC as when you cut the price of commodities by 50% you do not cut the tax but eliminate it and as an old ex coal miner who has seen three booms I have been predicting this for a couple of years. Everybody thought that the floor for iron ore would be $120 per tonne when the Chinese would close their uneconomical mines but they did not figure on A. a weakening Chinese economy and B. they would rather subsidise those mines than have civil unrest.


I believe the idea of a government is to act like a governor on a diesel to maintain stability so now is the time with approaching unemployment to build infrastructure.




I thought about what you said about a metro single being the wrong type of train and here is what I concluded.


The balance between surface rail and subway will change as land and bridges get more expensive and deep tunnels with large elevators, which  can be located anywhere, become the future and even though I like the old DD trains they are not so good for tunnels because they need an emergency platform in the tunnel and they offer more wind resistance which uses more power and increases the heat problem.


A picture of a Metro style carriage I saw  for the NWRL had conventional double seating on one side and perimeter seats on the other which would suit me as I like to stretch my legs out and am not too worried about sitting next to someone.

eddyb

Australia survived GFC 1 because of four reasons only
1) Howard left ALP with a +$20B surplus at the end of 2007 + additional funds going into the Future Fund and zero govt debt. This left Rudd with a lot of spending options 18mths later when revenue dived and he was able to spend his way through.

2) The sudden 30% dive in the dollar at the start of the GFC also left many exporters in an excellent position to compete in a  tough market.

3) The banks were healthy and with unemployment only rising slightly compared to other countries s defaults on loans were low. Australian banks also have the power to recoup a defaulted loan from other assets, in USA only the property financed against can be used and many just dropped the keys off and walked away.

4) Most Commodity prices recovered quickly.

I say most, aluminium did not and still has not recovered and hence why the aging Kurri Kurri and Geelong smelters closed as did the not long upgraded and very large Gove alumina refinery. The Chinese make aluminium and much higher cost than Australia but their market is protected. The Middle East growth during the last 10 years is also huge wipping out many western producers.

The down side of Australia's resistance to the GFC is that salaries didn't change, if anything they went up along with a rising dollar making Australia the most over pad markets in the world and hence we have seen the results finalling coming to roost in last 2 years with closure after closure. Basically if you earn more than roughly 35% of your 2003 salary and you do the same job, you are over paid. I went Expat in 2010 and the "Australian syndrome" is very obvious. OS Recruiters often don't bother with Aussie applications, guys leaving to go home to earn more money when other markets are cutting pre-GFC salaries/conditions and companies not even bothering to invite Aussie companies to tender because they know it will be expensive. I had a choice at end of 2010 having spent a year in India to go to Dubai or Australia. My wife and I know we lost money coming to Dubai, but feel that one of us would probably be jobless if we stayed in Oz.

......

Back to the subway.

When I said not suitable technology to run express to Paramatta.
- DD's can do 115km/hr in tunnels, certainly they used to in the Woy Woy tunnel before the speed was cut. The air gap around the train on DD's is quite reasonable because of the height of the train the sides leave a reasonable gap. The SD's can be a more tighter fit. London Tube would be the extreme case.

- I think you will find all greenfield tunnels these days have an emergency platform. I don't see why DD, SD or metro designs would make much different. If I recall Dubai has them. Not the best picture, but here http://www.durasteel.net/invictaimages/gallery/dubai-metro-10.jpg
Tunnels used for less frequent longhaul and freight may not comply with this, but when you have 500-1000 people per movement every 3-5min, the standards are probably different.

- If I recall correctly the NWRL trains are rated to 80-90km/hr which is not uncommon for this type of work as they are designed for faster acceleration and steeper climbs. Dubai Metro is 90km/hr. Its quite possible that the surface DD stock can do CBD to CBD faster as most/all the current stock is rated to 115km/hr, getting 130km/hr stock wouldn't be so hard and I think the V-sets can do it.  Its up to the track and you probably can squeeze that with improvement in track infrastructure.

- The seating etc is not an issue. I agree with your statement.

With regarding future surface, yes agree, hence why NWRL is UG, on the Parramatta to city corridor the route is there now and reasonably straight. Just need to improve the efficiency of the existing track capacity to get the speed and volumes. Getting the inner west traffic off the corridor will help a lot.
  eddyb Chief Train Controller

RTT_Rules

It seems you are right about tunnel platforms and I read in an emergency passengers can either leave through the side doors or the wheelchair ramps either end.



Evidently the DD Epping/Chatswood tunnels were 7.2m where as the NWRL is 6.2m so that is a saving of 25% in the amount of rock needed to be cut and transported.



I know you would prefer the express to be on the heavy rail and not the subway but I suggest the other way around would be better because the heavy rail stations are already there for a DD milk run and it cost so much to build new subway stations.



The subway could still do a milk run through the CBD then non stop to Parramatta.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
RTT_Rules

It seems you are right about tunnel platforms and I read in an emergency passengers can either leave through the side doors or the wheelchair ramps either end.



Evidently the DD Epping/Chatswood tunnels were 7.2m where as the NWRL is 6.2m so that is a saving of 25% in the amount of rock needed to be cut and transported.



I know you would prefer the express to be on the heavy rail and not the subway but I suggest the other way around would be better because the heavy rail stations are already there for a DD milk run and it cost so much to build new subway stations.



The subway could still do a milk run through the CBD then non stop to Parramatta.

eddyb
Hi,
Previous reply didn't go through.

I assume the 25% less rock to move and energy to drive the TBM and speed of tunneling adds significant cost savings that over a future 100'skm of tunnels will be considerable. The nah sayers will be saying, juts make it DD compatible, but why? A DD will not be capable to enter these tunnels under the contact for at least 35 years and even then will be incompatible with the stations, door positions etc etc. Few build DD subways for good reason. The Paris RER is limited to tunnels only in the city.

The reason I say DD to be express and Metro to do the milk runs is as follows;
- Sydney DD technology is better suited to express, limited stop services and has reasonable top end speed

- NWRL Metro technology is better suited to more frequent stopping and short dwell times and has a lower top end speed.
- The govt will extend a line from St Mary's south to the new airport, this is not just a CBD to CBD project, the picture is much bigger.

- The existing users of the line are not local milk runs, but mostly outer suburban West, NW and SW services + Blue Mountains and for the inner west section you also have Nth and Central coast. Doing something for Parramatta also does them.

- To build a different technology fast tunnel to Parramatta will see the tunnel under uterlised and thus provide limited benefit for resolving the Inner and Mid Western Mains long term issues.

- The biggest bottle neck on the inner west is the local services, their 4 services per hour actually chew up 12 slots.

- Express and locals do not mix well on same tracks.

- Remove the Inner West to Homebush/Lidcombe onto a rapid frequency service will enable an extra 12 services per hour from the west/north. (yes not all these can be filled due to limitation of the city tunnels, hence why Bankstown will still need to switch to Metro.)

- Turn up and go timetables as per feeder services timetable from NWRL will attract more users.

I think by the time the airport is open we will see an express from the Airport to City via Parramatta with limited stops implemented to address you original requirements but this will need extra track capacity and hence I see a Nth beaches to Inner West line as part of the 3rd phase of the Sydney Metro. Or the express will terminate at Central Terminal.
  eddyb Chief Train Controller

RTT_Rules

Speed seems to be important in your thinking but the subway in Norway will go up to 250 kph however it is a faster train in a 10m diameter tunnel and just like a DD express I do not think people would like to change from the Metro just to save five minutes.



Much has been said about carriage capacity when in fact I believe if there is a duplication of train paths then nobody will have to even think about standing as it is the limited train paths that cause the overcrowding.



Surface rail is not only last century but with the price of land and NIMBYS,  subways are the way to go in our ideal Sydney rock.



Now two things to consider regarding the cost are the size of the tunnels and number of stations.



A 6.2m diameter metro tunnel has a cross section of 32.1 square metres where the cross section of a 7.2m diameter DD tunnel is 40.7 square metres so that means you have an extra 30% of rock to cut and transport with a DD subway.



Subway stations cost about $500m each so the less stations you have the longer tunnels you can afford so once the metro is done under the harbour and CBD the subways should be non stop to Mascot and Parramatta particularly as heavy rail stations are already there for passengers who want to go to intermediate stops.



At present the Parramatta/Central DD express misses so many stations they may as well put a bulldozer through them because people would be tempted to drive their cars rather than wait for the odd train that stops so my thinking is that it would be cheaper to use those existing surface stations for DD milk runs and make CBD/Mascot and CBD/Parramatta non stop metro express at only $100m per kilometre.


I cannot see Badgerys creek ever being anything like Mascot as it would be too noisy and smelly for future megacity Sydney.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
RTT_Rules

Speed seems to be important in your thinking but the subway in Norway will go up to 250 kph however it is a faster train in a 10m diameter tunnel and just like a DD express I do not think people would like to change from the Metro just to save five minutes.



Much has been said about carriage capacity when in fact I believe if there is a duplication of train paths then nobody will have to even think about standing as it is the limited train paths that cause the overcrowding.



Surface rail is not only last century but with the price of land and NIMBYS,  subways are the way to go in our ideal Sydney rock.



Now two things to consider regarding the cost are the size of the tunnels and number of stations.



A 6.2m diameter metro tunnel has a cross section of 32.1 square metres where the cross section of a 7.2m diameter DD tunnel is 40.7 square metres so that means you have an extra 30% of rock to cut and transport with a DD subway.



Subway stations cost about $500m each so the less stations you have the longer tunnels you can afford so once the metro is done under the harbour and CBD the subways should be non stop to Mascot and Parramatta particularly as heavy rail stations are already there for passengers who want to go to intermediate stops.



At present the Parramatta/Central DD express misses so many stations they may as well put a bulldozer through them because people would be tempted to drive their cars rather than wait for the odd train that stops so my thinking is that it would be cheaper to use those existing surface stations for DD milk runs and make CBD/Mascot and CBD/Parramatta non stop metro express at only $100m per kilometre.


I cannot see Badgerys creek ever being anything like Mascot as it would be too noisy and smelly for future megacity Sydney.

eddyb
Not speed focused, just making comment that if this is an extension of the NWRL it will be speed limited compared to surface rail. Does this make a difference over this distance???

I agree, in inner Sydney, East of Paramatta there will be very little surface rail construction in the future as land is just too expensive. The Airport line will however be suitable for surface due to much lower costs to do so. Other cities are still building inner city surface rail because land was preserved.

The issue for Mascot and why Badgery's creek will take off faster than most think is the Sydney curfew. Its costing alot of money to the airlines. Think about one of the world's largest airlines, Emirates. They have to build their fleet schedule (250 planes) with one of the best industry uterlisation around the fact that for 8hrs a day they cannot use Sydney (and yes other airports have restrictions too). Meanwhile in Brisbane, Emirates have planes leave at 2am. If the arriving plane to Dubai for Sydney is late, they need to steal planes off other sectors and cause significant disruption rather than risk letting the A380 due to arrive at Sydney around 9-10pm at night be too late. The airlines don't like multiple airport cities, but Mascot has too many restrictions now. More in the future. By the time its built, the planes that use, most of which have yet to be built and will be next generation model B777, B737, A380, A350, etc etc will be 15-20% quieter than today and 10-15% less fuel per passenger km. Mega Cities need 24hr airports.

The Metro will not reach Paramatta, too far and not needed. Why build capacity if once built there would not be people standing. Most trains double their capacity with standees.

The reason for the inner west metro all stopping allowing DD to run express is simple.
- it only needs to be half the distance to Paramatta
- Uses NWRL technology
- better suited to milk runs
- Enables frequent time tables for the inner city which is more deserving
- Adds 12 trains per capacity to the Southern tracks where as express UG wouldn't even remove 12 trains per hour off the surface tracks.
- Costs alot more than $100m/km. You are hard up building surface tracks on easy grades and lower land costs for that. The Perth Southern line built before the mining boom was built for about $100/km 10 years ago.
  eddyb Chief Train Controller

RTT_Rules


There a number of things we agree on.


We agree that to save five minutes people would rather stay on a slower Metro than to change to a faster mode.


We agree that not much extra surface rail would be built east of Parramatta.


We agree that the main airport has to be 24/7 but I believe that is not what is proposed for BC


We agree that most airlines like just one airport so people can easily transfer domestic/international.


We agree that greater Sydney will become a megacity of 10million people.


I think about the only thing we disagree on, and you may be right, is in my opinion Parramatta will be the  CBD of greater Sydney with Mascot having an extra angled take off runway into the bay and going 24/7 with quieter aircraft so building heights in the east stay at their present levels and really tall buildings being out Parramatta.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
RTT_Rules


There a number of things we agree on.


We agree that to save five minutes people would rather stay on a slower Metro than to change to a faster mode.


We agree that not much extra surface rail would be built east of Parramatta.


We agree that the main airport has to be 24/7 but I believe that is not what is proposed for BC


We agree that most airlines like just one airport so people can easily transfer domestic/international.


We agree that greater Sydney will become a megacity of 10million people.


I think about the only thing we disagree on, and you may be right, is in my opinion Parramatta will be the  CBD of greater Sydney with Mascot having an extra angled take off runway into the bay and going 24/7 with quieter aircraft so building heights in the east stay at their present levels and really tall buildings being out Parramatta.

eddyb

Hi,
I think you will find BC will be 24/7, they are just not being loud about this fact. The first thing to move will be airfreight. Dubai kicked out the air freighters on completion of the new airport to make room for pax. Then low cost carriers will move their trying to trick people into saving a few bucks to use an airport that cost +$50 more in taxi fares. Then some small international carriers will go there because they can arrive late at night, then some of the big boys will shift.

By 2060, I predict Mascot airport will be Sydney's newest water front housing property development. Ok, maybe not go that far!

What will occur is that NWRL will be the start of a larger inner urban mostly UG 2nd rail network replicating the U-bahn of Germany cities, thus taking work load off the existing network for further capacity from further out.
  eddyb Chief Train Controller

Have a go at how Parramatta is developing http://www.parracity.nsw.gov.au/work/economic_development/major_developments

This is the letter I sent to Coles and Woolworths to fund Parrahub


Hi                                                                                                                                                                                                           31/5/15                                                                                                                                            

I have the following proposal for Coles and Woolworths to build Parrahub.


Every day a customer from Coles would win a Parrahub unit and every day a customer from Woolworths would win a Parrahub unit.


The winners would be decided by a computer generated number that matched that on a receipt of over a certain value for each store.


To prevent people making multiple purchases a number could be given for every $50 spent e.g. $150 =3 numbers and these amounts could be determined independently by each company.


I imagine the land in auto alley would be worth about $500m and it may be best to buy that first as that area has just been changed to mixed use.


It would only require a very small increase in prices plus no need for any future advertising expenditure to be an economical proposition in Sydney.


When it was completed in 1,000 days Coles and Woolworths could have a floor each in the centre of the building and it would be good for public relations providing 15,000 free parking spaces, 2,000 unit winners and a subway station that would eventually connect all of greater Sydney.


Regards

Eddy Barnett

mistereddb@gmail.com

Sponsored advertisement

Subscribers: RTT_Rules, Transtopic

Display from:   

Quick Reply

We've disabled Quick Reply for this thread as it was last updated more than six months ago.