No level crossings between the City and Dandenong!

 
  MtBeenak Train Controller

Based on the level of political point scoring in the announcement instead of actual detail, and the frothing at the mouth from the posters here, I am 100 percent certain that this will be another complete fiasco from the ALP.  In five years time we will wonder where all of the money went and travellers on the line will still be complaining about over crowding and slow services.

Note that 50 percent of the train building will be done overseas.  This is in line with Metro/MTR's current tendering which will guarantee that the trains will be built by one of it's partners in China and the "50% local content" will be signage and numbering followed by years of fine tuning to get the trains actually into regular service.  37 high capacity sets?  That is exactly the same number as the Siemens rubbish currently limping around.  

The ALP were the idiots who let Metro/MTR take over the contract and send all of the profits back to China.  Now they are going to buy third world trains from them and commit us to years of further mis-matched rolling stock and the problems that has wrought on us for the last decade or more.  Metro/MTR is getting its way.  We will end up with five unique, separate railways.  Did we not learn anything from the Bayside/Hillside debacle?

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  topher1976 Train Controller

Location: Mill Park, Vic
In actual fact the centre-piece of this, the removal of 9 level crossings, is a commitment to road, not rail. It will not do anything to lessen the train congestion, and amounts to whimping out on the previous proposal. Nothing less than a combination of track amplification and high capacity signalling will do anything to improve the service on the Dandenong line. Just the usual spin...
TheBlacksmith
Wrong.  With the removal of the level crossings, they can increase rail movements as well.  The gates are down enough as it is, imagine if they increased services without removing the crossings!!
  topher1976 Train Controller

Location: Mill Park, Vic
No point of high capacity signalling without duplicating Dandenong to Cranbourne. That, congestion in the City Loop and V/Line are the biggest cause of delays along the corridor.
712M
City Loop won't be an issue once the Melb Metro Tunnel is built, as this is where the traffic from Pakenham and Cranbourne will be going.
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
City Loop won't be an issue once the Melb Metro Tunnel is built, as this is where the traffic from Pakenham and Cranbourne will be going.
topher1976
They could get rid of that issue right now, by removing all Frankston trains from the loop. That way, the Pakenham/Cranbourne lines would be separate from every other suburban line.
  topher1976 Train Controller

Location: Mill Park, Vic
They could get rid of that issue right now, by removing all Frankston trains from the loop. That way, the Pakenham/Cranbourne lines would be separate from every other suburban line.
railblogger
On weekdays, Frankston trains don't go thru the loop now (apart from occasional services during peak), they are part of the Cross City Group (Werribee to Frankston).  Weekends are a different story, but capacity isn't a huge issue over weekends.  Depending on the length of new high capacity trains, they may not be able to go thru the loop.
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
On weekdays, Frankston trains don't go thru the loop now (apart from occasional services during peak), they are part of the Cross City Group (Werribee to Frankston).  Weekends are a different story, but capacity isn't a huge issue over weekends.  Depending on the length of new high capacity trains, they may not be able to go thru the loop.
topher1976
I know. I meant the peak trains.
  mickamious Junior Train Controller

Can someone tell me something...
Whilst these ideas of what have been implemented to take place and get built are great... Where is all this money coming from?
Your talking about building the Metro Rail tunnel now also upgrading the existing works that were going to be taking place on the Dandenong corridor.. Just would like to know where the funding is...
EWL is supposedly scrapped so that money goes towards the tunnel but your short in $$ term unless my math is way out?
  TedHanson Junior Train Controller

Whilst these ideas of what have been implemented to take place and get built are great... Where is all this money coming from?
mickamious
People who vote Liberal are going to be taxed an extra 1000%!

I guess the money will come from the same place that it did to build the network, electrify the network and build the Loop. From loans. The state's current level of debt is one tenth of that of the 1920s, and a quarter of what it was in the 1970s. The fact that nil debt idiots have so captured the polity reflects the hard right wing media dominance which is anti the provision of public services - because the mega rich never use them. Melbourne will double in size in the next forty years, i.e. another Melbourne. We need to borrow big, increase taxes and build, build, build.
  TheBlacksmith Chief Commissioner

Location: Ankh Morpork
Wrong.  With the removal of the level crossings, they can increase rail movements as well.  The gates are down enough as it is, imagine if they increased services without removing the crossings!!
topher1976
Since when have the crossing gates had any effect on the train movements? They screw up the road traffic yes, but trains don't have to wait for gates.
  Madjikthise Deputy Commissioner

Since when have the crossing gates had any effect on the train movements? They screw up the road traffic yes, but trains don't have to wait for gates.
TheBlacksmith
The line is not currently run at maximum capacity. This is to allow the gates to open for at least a few minutes an hour in the peak.
If it was run to capacity today the gates would be closed for the entire peak periods morning and afternoon. This has been pointed out multiple times whenever discussions of crossing removals come up.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
The article also considers the purchasing of new rollingstock.

Under the revised plans, 37 new high-capacity trains, capable of carrying 20 per cent more passengers than a current Melbourne train, will be ordered - more than the 25 high-capacity trains included in the original proposal. The trains are expected to enter service from 2018, the government said.
Victorian Government

What manufacturers are available currently (in the state of Victoria) who could deliver a new platform? I would like to see the rollingstock development and construction happen in Victoria which would also provide much needed boosts in jobs.

Any ideas what rollingstock is be considered if any?
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
The article also considers the purchasing of new rollingstock.


What manufacturers are available currently (in the state of Victoria) who could deliver a new platform? I would like to see the rollingstock development and construction happen in Victoria which would also provide much needed boosts in jobs.

Any ideas what rollingstock is be considered if any?
bevans
I believe the original plan was to use to use rollingstock with an interior that would resemble those of the trains in cities such as Singapore and Hong Kong. As for construction, maybe Alstom will get the contract?
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
I believe the original plan was to use to use rollingstock with an interior that would resemble those of the trains in cities such as Singapore and Hong Kong. As for construction, maybe Alstom will get the contract?
railblogger

Are there examples online we can point to?

What facilities does Alstom have in Victoria?
  X'Trapolis-904M Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
What facilities does Alstom have in Victoria?
bevans
Ballarat.
  LancedDendrite Chief Commissioner

Location: Gheringhap Loop Autonomous Zone
I believe the original plan was to use to use rollingstock with an interior that would resemble those of the trains in cities such as Singapore and Hong Kong. As for construction, maybe Alstom will get the contract?
railblogger
There are three facilities in Victoria that could be a part of the tender process: Newport (Downer), Ballarat (Alstom) and Dandenong (Bombardier). All have their merits:
  • Newport might be selected to help keep jobs in the area after BAE shuts down Williamstown Shipyard
  • Ballarat might be selected to keep the factory afloat after the latest Xtrap order is finished
  • Bombardier has a very strong manufacturing base at Dandenong and would help cement it as the centre of rollingstock manufacture in Victoria - the order book is pretty big at the moment though.

There was a little bit of info given about the proposals tendered in the previous government's incarnation of th Cranbourne-Pakenham Rail Project here: https://www.railpage.com.au/news/article-15212
  Revenue Chief Commissioner

Things certainly have changed.  I used to resent investment in level crossing removals being considered public transport funding. That view was appropriate 10 years ago. However, from 2005 to 2010 metropolitan rail patronage grew by 50% and totally changed the game. It just isn't appropriate to have boom gates blocking road traffic, including buses, for the vast majority of the time in peak hour. If you added just a few more trains to the Dandenong Line then you'd find the boom gates wouldn't rise at all in peak!

Public transport exists to serve the community. So, yes this investment is about allowing more train services to operate and better public transport. Also worth mentioning the significant benefits that will be provided to bus users. There were plans being considered to split certain routes that cross train lines because it simply wasn't efficient to have buses waiting in traffic at boom gates. The recent announcements mean that this isn't required (just need to hang on for a little bit longer).

The reason that this announcement is so important is that it recognises the links between level crossings, rolling stock, signalling, etc. It's a holistic approach that is really customer focused. A single train design. When it comes times to go for next gen signalling, you only have to interface with one suburban train design (plus V/Line, freight). A line with no level crossings is much more reliable.

So the customer outcome is new trains, each of which has higher capacity than existing train, more trains, greater reliability, some new stations, etc. All very exciting. Of course, delivering 37 trains takes time but it really does mean that we have a plan for Melbourne having a true Metro style line. Smile

I remember when the Hong Kong trains were built in Preston, the Sydney trams and last order of XPTs were built in Dandenong. As has been mentioned, the XTraps are out of Ballarat, V/Locities and E-Class Trams out of Dandenong.
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
Are there examples online we can point to?
bevans
Have a look at the rollingstock used on those systems.

There are three facilities in Victoria that could be a part of the tender process: Newport (Downer), Ballarat (Alstom) and Dandenong (Bombardier). All have their merits: Newport might be selected to help keep jobs in the area after BAE shuts down Williamstown Shipyard Ballarat might be selected to keep the factory afloat after the latest Xtrap order is finished Bombardier has a very strong manufacturing base at Dandenong and would help cement it as the centre of rollingstock manufacture in Victoria - the order book is pretty big at the moment though.
LancedDendrite
While Downer and Bombardier could fulfill the order, Alstom's Ballarat plant will have no work after the next batch of X'Traps are ordered, which would mean a loss of jobs there. Also it's likely that Bombardier will be occupied with Vlocity and A-City orders.

I remember when the Hong Kong trains were built in Preston, the Sydney trams and last order of XPTs were built in Dandenong. As has been mentioned, the XTraps are out of Ballarat, V/Locities and E-Class Trams out of Dandenong.
Revenue
Don't you mean the trams?
  Revenue Chief Commissioner

Quite right - yes, I mean the Hong Kong TRAMS were built in Preston....it was quite impressive to see them under construction there and then head over to Hong Kong a couple of years later to ride on them.
  freightgate Minister for Railways

Location: Albury, New South Wales
What is an a city and who are they for !
  Mouse Chief Train Controller
  MtBeenak Train Controller

Unless the ALP gets rid of Metro we will be getting trains from their partners in China.

https://informaaustralia.wordpress.com/2014/09/10/local-builders-out-as-two-contest-for-melbourne-metro/
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Unless the ALP gets rid of Metro we will be getting trains from their partners in China.

https://informaaustralia.wordpress.com/2014/09/10/local-builders-out-as-two-contest-for-melbourne-metro/
MtBeenak

I would suggest the government has a clause in the Metro contract about sourcing rollingstock they pay for.
  don_dunstan Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Adelaide proud
Unless the ALP gets rid of Metro we will be getting trains from their partners in China.
MtBeenak
As per your link (and another link someone mentioned earlier) my understanding is that Alstom and Bombardier are already out of the running for the construction of these 'next gen' trains and that only Chinese or Korean produced trains were under consideration. Andrews mention of at least fifty percent local content would seem to be unachievable unless they reverse some of the decisions made under the Napthine government last year?
  mm42 Chief Train Controller

Unfortunately this sounds like another half-baked "solution".

Spin: High-capacity trains
Truth: These will be 6-car trains with few seats. Pity those who can't stand for long periods, eg pregnant women or men with knee problems.
Solution: 9-car trains, and extend station platforms


Spin: High-capacity signalling
Truth: There will be NO third track. Passengers from Gippsland and suburbs beyond Dandenong will crawl behind all-stoppers while on many less-busy lines (Frankston, Ringwood) there are expresses on third tracks
Solution: Build the grade separations 4 m wider to allow for a third track
  freightgate Minister for Railways

Location: Albury, New South Wales
I hope the grade separation works include space for a dedicated fright line to the cranborne area which will be required for the port upgrades at Hastings.

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