NSW MOTORAIL Car Carrier (MBK/BKX) colours

 
  railmod Chief Train Controller

Hi All, I've just about finished my version of the MBK (BKX) and want to run it with the Southern Aurora, I've seen a photo of AMIZ2595 (which I think is the same wagon as MBK2596) and it has the boards holding the 'MOTORAIL' and 'NSW & Arrows' signs in wagon red/NSW Red but I can't make out the colour of the rest of the wagon.
Does anyone know what the colour scheme of the wagon was or have photos of the MBK in colour that shows the colour scheme of the wagon?
Ta Alex.

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  EFB5800 Chief Train Controller

Location: On my office roof.
They were silver on the visible parts of the sides, but I don't think the whole wagon bodies were re-painted. The 2 in this Weston Langford photo look dirty apart from fresh silver sides and signage.

http://www.westonlangford.com/media/photos/113319.jpg

Cheers, Matt.
  railmod Chief Train Controller

They were silver on the visible parts of the sides, but I don't think the whole wagon bodies were re-painted. The 2 in this Weston Langford photo look dirty apart from fresh silver sides and signage.

http://www.westonlangford.com/media/photos/113319.jpg

Cheers, Matt.
EFB5800
Thanks Matt,
Interesting that the sides are painted silver, makes sense seeing they are for the Southern Aurora, but I was hoping they where red - ohh well.

Cheers Alex.
  ajbrown Junior Train Controller

Thanks Matt,
Interesting that the sides are painted silver, makes sense seeing they are for the Southern Aurora, but I was hoping they where red - ohh well.

Cheers Alex.
railmod
Whilst I can't remember just what colour they were, I would question the colour depicted in Weston Langford's photo as being silver. Notice that it has been taken very late in the afternoon and the setting sun plays tricks at that time of day. But then I could be wrong: I often am!

Allan Brown
  FirstStopCentral Chief Train Controller

Whilst I can't remember just what colour they were, I would question the colour depicted in Weston Langford's photo as being silver. Notice that it has been taken very late in the afternoon and the setting sun plays tricks at that time of day. But then I could be wrong: I often am!

Allan Brown
ajbrown

I'm with you Allan, I think it's just the late sun glinting off the flat part of the side, not silver at all.

Paul
  NSWRcars Assistant Commissioner

not silver at all.
FirstStopCentral
And I’ll disagree. Look a the signage boards, why aren’t they glinting? Several MBK were definitely painted silver for use on the Aurora. I think those normally on the Gold Coast MotoRail always wore red. The large signage boards were removed in later years, or perhaps late conversions never carried them?
  a6et Minister for Railways

I would perhaps suggest the one on the engine could be PTC blue, with the other one could be Maroon colour, the colour tinges can be picked on the ends of each wagon, at the sides, also the one not on the engine certainly shows the maroon colours around the Motorail & PTC signages.

The one on the engine could also be maroon but, I see enough blue along the edges.  Although the other aspect to consider is that the signs are actually new painted as well as having the stencilling done, but the remainder of the body works are actually olf gun metal, which I tend to think I would choose that as being more correct.
  NSWRcars Assistant Commissioner

According to Coaching Stock of the NSW Railways Volume 2, MBK 2591-2595 were painted silver and fitted with shunters steps, for the Southern Aurora.

They were converted to MBY in 1978-1979, when 2CM bogies were fitted. The Weston Langford photo shows two MBY.
  railmod Chief Train Controller

OK,
Thanks for all the replies - its been interesting, just wish there was a decent colour photo showing the wagon. I've found the following photo on Peter Vincent's site : http://www.pjv101.net/cd/pages/c427m.htm but unfortunately its in B&W, wish it was colour.
NSWRcars, has the Coaching stock book any colour photos of the MBK?

Cheers Alex.
  NSWRcars Assistant Commissioner

OK,
Thanks for all the replies - its been interesting, just wish there was a decent colour photo showing the wagon. I've found the following photo on Peter Vincent's site : http://www.pjv101.net/cd/pages/c427m.htm but unfortunately its in B&W, wish it was colour.
NSWRcars, has the Coaching stock book any colour photos of the MBK?

Cheers Alex.
railmod
No colour photos. Interestingly the Peter Vincent photo shows 2CM bogies well before the recode to MBY. They may have always had them?
  railmod Chief Train Controller

thanks NSWRcars, I posted a similar message on the facebook NSW diesel modelers page & Steve Pracy came back with a Weston Langford colour photo which quite clearly shows the cars in silver with Deep Indian Red signboards.
Cheers Alex.
  petan Chief Commissioner

Location: Waiting to see a zebra using a zebra crossing!
The MotoRail loading rules http://s311.photobucket.com/user/petanoz/media/Timetables/MotoRail-layout_zpspehwmcdm.jpg.html

I have already posted this on a couple of facebook groups a well.
  railmod Chief Train Controller

Thanks Petan (Peter-the-C ??) - appreciate the info, just need to figure out if I paint the MBK with Silver posts how the rest of the wagon is painted - is it all silver or gunmetal grey with silver posts.

Cheers Alex.
  petan Chief Commissioner

Location: Waiting to see a zebra using a zebra crossing!
Thanks Petan (Peter-the-C ??) - appreciate the info, just need to figure out if I paint the MBK with Silver posts how the rest of the wagon is painted - is it all silver or gunmetal grey with silver posts.

Cheers Alex.
railmod

Alex, I assumed you saw my similar post on that Facebook last night so yes it is I. No luck with colour side on images as space limits means I have culled most old magazines. Colour MotoRail images were quite plentiful in Railway Digest towards the end of the MotoRail era so maybe others have also culled magazines otherwise they would have appeared here or that Facebook group. More on the Southern Aurora this old thread https://www.railpage.com.au/f-p133696.htm I am aware most internet images are of the locos so that might explain the shortage of colour side on MotoRail images showing details. Many also only worried about the passenger cars and considered the MotoRail an addon extra no worth the picture? The MotoRail led out of Sydney and for a while was swapped mid trip to help shunting in Melbourne so it covered up the blue neon sign when trailing.
  petan Chief Commissioner

Location: Waiting to see a zebra using a zebra crossing!
And I’ll disagree. Look a the signage boards, why aren’t they glinting? Several MBK were definitely painted silver for use on the Aurora. I think those normally on the Gold Coast MotoRail always wore red. The large signage boards were removed in later years, or perhaps late conversions never carried them?
NSWRcars

The Brisbane Limited received a MotoRail service after the move across the river to Roma Street terminal from South Brisbane. My memory saws the Limited and the Murwillumbah sets were interchangeable and appeared on the other train alternate days with the FAM sleepers on both trains. I was not aware S1/3 had different MotoRail wagons from N1/2 and N3/4 and would be interested in more details on that please. The Intercapital Daylight also had a MotoRail service for Sydney Melbourne trips so did the ICD have red or silver?
  EFB5800 Chief Train Controller

Location: On my office roof.
I seem to remember the ICD gained 1 motorail wagon after the SA was combined into the Sydney / Melbourne Express. The SEx/MEx originally had 16 cars, which allowed room for only 1 car wagon. So that would have still left 4 wagons in the pool. I only remember seeing them dirty by that stage, so would guess they were silver sided under the dirt. The pictures on the Auscision SA page show some quite dirty ones  in the late 70's with a bit of silver showing.
  petan Chief Commissioner

Location: Waiting to see a zebra using a zebra crossing!
I seem to remember the ICD gained 1 motorail wagon after the SA was combined into the Sydney / Melbourne Express. The SEx/MEx originally had 16 cars, which allowed room for only 1 car wagon. So that would have still left 4 wagons in the pool. I only remember seeing them dirty by that stage, so would guess they were silver sided under the dirt. The pictures on the Auscision SA page show some quite dirty ones  in the late 70's with a bit of silver showing.
EFB5800

No ICD MotoRail in the 1984 public TT but was in the 1989 public TT so I think you are right.
  NSWRcars Assistant Commissioner

I was not aware S1/3 had different MotoRail wagons from N1/2 and N3/4 and would be interested in more details on that please. The Intercapital Daylight also had a MotoRail service for Sydney Melbourne trips so did the ICD have red or silver?
petan
The Coaching Stock book gives a rundown of all these wagons.

Briefly:

2581-2584 were the first for the Gold Coast Motorail in 1974;

2591-2595 were next for the Aurora, also in 1974 and painted silver;

Later conversions were for the Indian Pacific and other interstate trains, bringing the total to 21 wagons numbered 2575-2595.

I have no idea which liveries were carried, and whether certain wagons remained captive to particular trains.
  petan Chief Commissioner

Location: Waiting to see a zebra using a zebra crossing!
The Coaching Stock book gives a rundown of all these wagons.

Briefly:

2581-2584 were the first for the Gold Coast Motorail in 1974;

2591-2595 were next for the Aurora, also in 1974 and painted silver;

Later conversions were for the Indian Pacific and other interstate trains, bringing the total to 21 wagons numbered 2575-2595.

I have no idea which liveries were carried, and whether certain wagons remained captive to particular trains.
NSWRcars

My point was earlier you wrote the MBK were definitely painted silver for use on the Aurora and those normally on the Gold Coast MotoRail always were red. Now you wrote you have no idea which liveries were carried, and whether certain wagons remained captive to particular trains. That suggests the silver could appear at Brisbane and Murwillumbah as well?

The Aurora MotoRail was shunted from lead to tail at Albury according to Ausloco yahoogroup message 9345 Southern Aurora Telephones on NSW & VR locos by Grahamef on2001Dec 30, 2001. Not sure for how many years this occurred.  I also am glad we are having this discussion as it is a topic I like, having occasional watched the MotoRail departures out of Sydney and the Brisbane and Murwillumbah trains a fair bit. If only I had pointed the camera at the northern MotoRails a bit more myself I could answer my own questions. There are not that many MotoRail articles around. AMRM has one based on the Murwillumbah one in issue 105 NOV/DEC 1980 and there are two different ones in the AMRA Journal in 1995.  There might be more?
  NSWRcars Assistant Commissioner

My point was earlier you wrote the MBK were definitely painted silver for use on the Aurora and those normally on the Gold Coast MotoRail always were red. Now you wrote you have no idea which liveries were carried, and whether certain wagons remained captive to particular trains. That suggests the silver could appear at Brisbane and Murwillumbah as well?
petan
I don’t know which wagons wore which liveries, but I definitely recall silver ones used on the Aurora, and red ones on the north. Whether silver ones ever went north, I can’t say.

The Coaching Stock book states 2591-2595 were silver. It doesn’t mention colours of the others.

Perhaps even more interesting were the two wagons with fully enclosed decks, painted blue, but never used in revenue service. I recall seeing one of them at Eveleigh. I’ve heard various stories about why they were not commissioned...
  EFB5800 Chief Train Controller

Location: On my office roof.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorail

The one in the pic of the North Coast Motorail looks to be freshly painted to match the cars. Also interesting is what looks to be 2AE bogies under it.
  petan Chief Commissioner

Location: Waiting to see a zebra using a zebra crossing!
I don’t know which wagons wore which liveries, but I definitely recall silver ones used on the Aurora, and red ones on the north. Whether silver ones ever went north, I can’t say.

The Coaching Stock book states 2591-2595 were silver. It doesn’t mention colours of the others.

Perhaps even more interesting were the two wagons with fully enclosed decks, painted blue, but never used in revenue service. I recall seeing one of them at Eveleigh. I’ve heard various stories about why they were not commissioned...
NSWRcars
Thanks NSWRcars for the extra research and car numbers Smile  On a different topic, the car keys rode in an envelope in the loco cab and were handed down from the loco to platform staff as the train went along the Murwillumbah platform. That enabled the staff to get the cars on the MotoRail ready. I found one of these envelopes at Murwillumbah http://s311.photobucket.com/user/petanoz/media/Rail%20assorted/MotoRail-keys_zps163246a4.jpg.html?sort=3&o=3
  NSWRcars Assistant Commissioner

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorail

The one in the pic of the North Coast Motorail looks to be freshly painted to match the cars. Also interesting is what looks to be 2AE bogies under it.
EFB5800
The initial four converted for the Gold Coast MotoRail had 2AE bogies, and were painted Indian Red. Coaching Stock book claims the five silver ones for the Aurora also originally had 2AE’s, but I don’t remember this. If they did, they were soon changed to 2CM, as per the Peter Vincent photo of MBK2595.
  petan Chief Commissioner

Location: Waiting to see a zebra using a zebra crossing!
Brisbane Limited in 1989 had a MotoRail with open frame style sides not fully enclosed sides. The sign mid wagon was white / silver with red edge and red lettering. Image is of the locos so the MotoRail is mostly side on so no clear details of the sign's Alex needs. Source; Railway Digest front cover March 1990 of Brisbane Limited on Grady's Creek Bridge north of Kyogle so not on the NSW main south thus silver signs on northern trains. Open frame Motorail wagons were regular at Murwillumbah in the later years.  

I really am surprised several colour images of the MotoRail wagons have not appeared on this thread as I recall many in Railway Digest I had to give away due to space here. I kept a few but usually my magazines go to the local old folks homes after a year or so.
  railmod Chief Train Controller

Brisbane Limited in 1989 had a MotoRail with open frame style sides not fully enclosed sides. The sign mid wagon was white / silver with red edge and red lettering. Image is of the locos so the MotoRail is mostly side on so no clear details of the sign's Alex needs. Source; Railway Digest front cover March 1990 of Brisbane Limited on Grady's Creek Bridge north of Kyogle so not on the NSW main south thus silver signs on northern trains. Open frame Motorail wagons were regular at Murwillumbah in the later years.  

I really am surprised several colour images of the MotoRail wagons have not appeared on this thread as I recall many in Railway Digest I had to give away due to space here. I kept a few but usually my magazines go to the local old folks homes after a year or so.
petan
Hi Petan,
Sorry if I was not quite clear on what I am trying to achieve, I've almost finished a model of the Southern Aurora & have an MBK (BMK) which I want to run with the Southern Aurora, whilst I originally painted it wagon red, I've settled on repainting the MBK in silver (as per Steven Pracy's photos on fb) and am just trying to figure out whether the whole car is silver or just the posts with the rest in gunmetal grey, and if just the posts, are they silver only on the 'outside' or the whole post. I'm not worried about the sign as I've already got decals which match the photo Steven posted and also a Peter Vincent photo I found on the web.
Like you, I'm surprised how few photos are out there of the Wagons in Silver, let alone any that could be used to figure out the colour scheme.
Cheers Alex.

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