Fixing bottlenecks

 
  Lad_Porter Chief Commissioner

Location: Yarra Glen
A quick flyover view on Google maps suggest that there is no space available at any of the station locations, north of North Richmond, or the tunnels.
AzN_dj
Yes, what about the tunnels?  Can't see them being widened, or bypassed, to allow for extra tracks.

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  bramt Deputy Commissioner

Yes, what about the tunnels?  Can't see them being widened, or bypassed, to allow for extra tracks.
Lad_Porter
The whole idea is investigating if quadding would be easier than a whole new tunnel from Victoria Park to Flagstaff. Yes, it would be tricky here, but widening ~100m of 'tunnel' is obviously cheaper than a whole new one...

If your assumption on the ability to take four tracks is based on (half) a quirky overpass you are sorely mistaken.
ZH836301
This was in response to this:
>I'm not convinced there is enough space through here, and real estate is at an absolute premium here, so property acquisition would be cost prohibitive.

>ZH836301: There isn't, that's why long term plans are for a new tunnel towards the city. ZH836301
Somebody

You were saying it wouldn't physically fit. I was just asking what that was based on, because there are at least some locations where 4 tracks demonstrably do fit within the reservation, for example Gipps St. I also wasn't saying you could add another 2 tracks over Gipps St tomorrow: only the southern abutments have the extra width, the northern abutments look substantially older, plus of course there are platforms on top!!

Quadding Jolimont-Clifton Hill would only really would shift congestion towards Flinders St (although the separation of express services would definitely be positive). That's the main reason for the proposed tunnel: to completely separate Mernda line services from the rest of the network whilst still providing a connection to the CBD. The costs of quadding + extra congestion relief Jolimont-Flinders St are your baseline. Comparatively the Southern Cross-Rushall tunnel proposal provides additional benefits, such as an expanded passenger catchment and better network separation. Costs would probably end up being more, but that's what a proper cost-benefit analysis should be for.
LancedDendrite
All sounds reasonable. 2 extra tracks won't help all that much by the time you get to Flinders St. A tunnel certainly would provide more benefits.
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
You were saying it wouldn't physically fit. I was just asking what that was based on, because there are at least some locations where 4 tracks demonstrably do fit within the reservation, for example Gipps St. I also wasn't saying you could add another 2 tracks over Gipps St tomorrow: only the southern abutments have the extra width, the northern abutments look substantially older, plus of course there are platforms on top!!
bramt

You can't even fit four tracks at Gipps St.

The south side of the overpass may give the impression it was built for four tracks, but it clearly isn't as they would run straight into the Collingwood station platforms.

Given the property resumptions, rail downtime, road closures, complete station rebuilds (if even possible), level crossings, etc. a new tunnel would have a far better BCR, especially since it opens up new areas, wouldn't feed straight into Flinders Street and presents the ability to do away with the horrid Rushall curve.
  AzN_dj Chief Commissioner

Location: Along route 69
I think some people have missed the point. You cant say that one part has space for 4 tracks, like saying that Gipps Street can fit four tracks, when there are sections that won't? You couldn't build four tracks, suddenly reduce it to two, and then expand it to four again. You need clearance for four for the whole section, and as I said, there isn't space at any station (unless you close every station), north of North Richmond, and the tunnels, and that is for sure. The rest of the line I can't tell you unless you went out there with a measuring stick. However, I am quite confident in suggesting that if it could have been done already, it would have been done already.
  Heihachi_73 Chief Commissioner

Location: Terminating at Ringwood
Who says all four tracks need to have platforms at every station? Most expresses in that area are Jolimont to Clifton Hill. Is there room for 2 platforms with 2 express tracks ala East Richmond?

Similarly, this is the only way a fourth track would work all the way to Box Hill. While the tracks will fit for the most part, the only stations I can see with four platforms would be Hawthorn (not Glenferrie), Camberwell, Canterbury and maybe Surrey Hills when it's finally sunk under Union Rd, if the designers aren't brain-dead like they were with Mitcham. The bridges around Glenferrie and Auburn already have room for four tracks (an extra span south of the up line) but seemingly no provision for a fourth platform. The current Mont Albert station has nowhere to add a fourth track, let alone a platform (not that it needs one), unless the heritage-listed platform 1 building is turned into a café and the station itself moved underneath Mont Albert Rd - of course the cashed-up, Lexus-driving NIMBYs living outside the station they never use will love having their precious little town modernised. Bring on the bulldozers already! Smile
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
Who says all four tracks need to have platforms at every station? Most expresses in that area are Jolimont to Clifton Hill. Is there room for 2 platforms with 2 express tracks ala East Richmond?

Similarly, this is the only way a fourth track would work all the way to Box Hill. While the tracks will fit for the most part, the only stations I can see with four platforms would be Hawthorn (not Glenferrie), Camberwell, Canterbury and maybe Surrey Hills when it's finally sunk under Union Rd, if the designers aren't brain-dead like they were with Mitcham. The bridges around Glenferrie and Auburn already have room for four tracks (an extra span south of the up line) but seemingly no provision for a fourth platform. The current Mont Albert station has nowhere to add a fourth track, let alone a platform (not that it needs one), unless the heritage-listed platform 1 building is turned into a café and the station itself moved underneath Mont Albert Rd - of course the cashed-up, Lexus-driving NIMBYs living outside the station they never use will love having their precious little town modernised. Bring on the bulldozers already! Smile
Heihachi_73
The tunnels will like be an issue, along with platform capacity at Flinders St. Even though expresses are Jolimont-Clifton Hill, you are likely to have a lot more trains running with quadruplicated track thereby increasing congestion at Flinders St.
  Heihachi_73 Chief Commissioner

Location: Terminating at Ringwood
Flinders Street will always be a bottleneck when you have more rail lines than platforms, even when through-running (e.g. Frankston to Werribee) and when lesser ones like Alamein, Williamstown and Flemington Racecourse/Showgrounds aren't counted. Any chances of the former Princes Bridge platforms ever seeing another train?

I think with Jolimont-West Richmond, the only place to lay any tracks would be south of Jolimont station (MCG side) with a massive underground section between the two stations similar to Boronia/Holmesglen, while leaving the old "London Tube" tunnels and West Richmond station pretty much untouched. I think only three tracks would be feasible between Jolimont and Clifton Hill, with the new track being express-only with no platforms at the intermediate stations (this track layout which may cause minor problems at Clifton Hill though, think of Ringwood as an example, where a down shuttle service has to go from platform 1 and cross over to the centre track over Warrandyte Rd in order to access the down Lilydale/Belgrave tracks). The only part I'm stumped with is West Richmond station. With three rail-over-road bridges north of West Richmond and a tunnel portal south of the station, where on earth would you get the room to put one? The tunnel portal would have to go where Muir St is (and that's only if grades allow, considering the down end is on top of a bridge), and in roads-first Melbourne, they would never dig up a road to suit a train unless it benefits the road itself. That doesn't even start on idiot-proofing the site so people don't jump from West Richmond's platforms into the tunnel and into the path of an express train (I suppose South Kensington is similar in this regard though). The southern track at the up end of Jolimont would also be a problem if you wanted a train from the Clifton Hill Loop to go on the express line; it would have to cross over the both the up and down lines at grade to access the express track and vice versa (there's also a road bridge between Jolimont and the loop portal), although this section already has three tracks.
  Myrtone Chief Commissioner

Location: North Carlton, Melbourne, Victoria
First of all, how many platforms does Flinders street station have and how many lines are there?

I understand that triple track dates from a time when we still had railyards in Jolimont, because trains could be stored there between morining and afternoon peak, but those yards were reduced when the city loop was built, now apartments have been built on top of the remaining ones. Storing trains in these places made triple track work.
I think that Flinders street station still has a now unused platform once used by trains to Port Melbourne and St. Kilda.

By the way, we had three railways serving the Bayside suburbs back in 1986 (when I was born), one serving South Melbourne to St. Kilda, now intergrated into the tramway network, one running southwards from Richmond to Ripponlea, then parallel to Brighton road to Elsternwick, then serving Bayside suburbs Gardenvale to Sandringham, and the other also running southwards from Richmond, but southeast from Richmond to Caulfield, then southwards to Cheltnam, and then serving the outer Bayside suburbs.

Was there ever, early on, a proposal for a single Bayside railway? Now I know there was a stretch of line from St. Kilda to Windsor, but it requried trains to change direction at St. Kilda.
  AzN_dj Chief Commissioner

Location: Along route 69
Who says all four tracks need to have platforms at every station? Most expresses in that area are Jolimont to Clifton Hill. Is there room for 2 platforms with 2 express tracks ala East Richmond?
Heihachi_73
The only way to fit four tracks is to have 0 platforms. You couldn't fit two platforms four tracks.
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
Any chances of the former Princes Bridge platforms ever seeing another train?
Heihachi_73
Given that one has been taken over by the ACMI, I don't think so.
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
Similarly, this is the only way a fourth track would work all the way to Box Hill. While the tracks will fit for the most part, the only stations I can see with four platforms would be Hawthorn (not Glenferrie), Camberwell, Canterbury and maybe Surrey Hills when it's finally sunk under Union Rd, if the designers aren't brain-dead like they were with Mitcham. The bridges around Glenferrie and Auburn already have room for four tracks (an extra span south of the up line) but seemingly no provision for a fourth platform. The current Mont Albert station has nowhere to add a fourth track, let alone a platform (not that it needs one), unless the heritage-listed platform 1 building is turned into a café and the station itself moved underneath Mont Albert Rd - of course the cashed-up, Lexus-driving NIMBYs living outside the station they never use will love having their precious little town modernised. Bring on the bulldozers already! http://Railpage.com.au/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif
heihachi

I would only give one station four platforms and that would be Glenferrie.

No point putting in four tracks if you're going to stop at every second station.

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