VICTORIAN Liberal leader Matthew Guy has promised his party would undo recent changes to V/Line timetabling should it win government at the next state election.

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Typed a long post in a pop up window but lost it. Will try again when i get a few spare moments.

Jeez is that all the Liberals have got!!! Terry Mulder was average as Transport Minister, completed nothing major just small projects like

Domain Tram Interchange
Epsom Rail Station
Balaclava Station
Moorabbin Bus Station
Waurn Ponds Station

Michael

He is simply interfering in a subject he knows nothing about.

Matthew Guy unfortunately believes that his job as Opposition Leader is to oppose absolutely everything the Government does. Oppositions ( of all political persuasions) need to understand that the Government  isn't wrong about everything. A lifetime of experience, however, shows that the only thing on which they agree is MP's perks.

Jeez is that all the Liberals have got!!! Terry Mulder was average as Transport Minister, completed nothing major just small projects like

Domain Tram Interchange
Epsom Rail Station
Balaclava Station
Moorabbin Bus Station
Waurn Ponds Station

Michael

Don't forget Talbot station...

Matthew Guy unfortunately believes that his job as Opposition Leader is to oppose absolutely everything the Government does.

That's in the Opposition Leader's Statement of Duties. All persuasions.

Jeez is that all the Liberals have got!!! Terry Mulder was average as Transport Minister, completed nothing major just small projects like

Domain Tram Interchange
Epsom Rail Station
Balaclava Station
Moorabbin Bus Station
Waurn Ponds Station

Michael

Don't forget Talbot station...

Talbot was a Labor promise if I recall.  Just as Maryborough was.

A few source articles I went looking for:

http://www.warragulcitizen.com/local/liberals-to-let-pakenham-city-commuters-back-on-vline159

http://pakenham.starcommunity.com.au/gazette/2015-06-17/free-to-ride-under-guy/


His conduct on the east west link along with Napthine was an outrage.

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/victoria-state-election-2014/minister-ignored-business-case-when-approving-plans-for-68-billion-road-20141125-11tpi2.html

Just one of the article sources to the corrupt conduct surrounding this trouble. Give this answer in court still continued as planning minister and today he is the opposition leader.

They are also a one term state government of Victoria, and their behavior in relation to the east west link is just one of the reasons they were majority voted out.

A bullet point summary:

• Labor before was led by Brumby, and his incompetence was extremely disgusting, the conduct with myki, one example for him.
• Then we switched him out with Ted Ballieu, I believe not many voting for him would regard him as a saint anyway, he also said he would get rid of myki, then, he didn't, because the contract would have a $2 billion exit fee. We didn't want a public transport system overall being downgraded in it's effectiveness by a ticketing system which will lower it's quality standards further than it has now done.
• Then Napthine took over and they got weaker when they brought up the east west link, a project it itself would have business case that shoots itself and they hid it from us. They didn't handle the issue with Geoff Shaw properly and eventually they were shooting each other up, and labor had the opportunity to kick him out when Napthine finally gave up on depending on him.
• But labor wouldn't vote him out, either they wanted to keep him there to ensure more people would sway away from Napthine or, knowing that Napthine would sign those contracts even though they wouldn't pass into act.
• This was all surrounding an equal number of labor and liberal seats with Geoff shaw an independent, resigning from the liberal party. Effectively himself was the sole decider for the passage of any legislation.
• Election is November 29th 2014
• Just before caretaker mode October 2014, Napthine signs contracts, hasn't passed as legislation in parliament, and Labor still keeps to their position of official opposition, but wouldn't cancel them if they were signed.
• As the greens begin to gain more attention from voters, labor changes their position, extremely suspicious whether they would go through with their word to cancel contracts.
• Now that they have done so, but we have on word on a Doncaster rail link.

This is just a short summary of key problems and dissatisfying behaviour from both liberal and labor, from the period of Brumby to now on the day of this post. The concealment and obfuscation from both parties is paramount.

Some reading this may wonder how this entire body of passage will be relevant to this thread and discussion, why would it be, you may ask?

It is because this is how we should be evaluating them on their conduct and it is vital to reflect on this in order to weigh it up to this issue and the debates that would be discussed in the future as they come up.

And in relation to this thread, looking at how it works, if I regularly used Pakenham station, I would want to use the V/line train from there to travel express all the way into the city. It's seating is comfortable, a vast majority of stations are skipped if the CBD is my destination, I could even use it to get off at dandenong or caulfield quickly for connections.

Compare this to a metro train, grotesque marks of vandalism left behind, the seating is not as comfortable and it will take much more time for them to travel as it must service every metro station to Caulfield.

V/line passengers are sick of it as indicated and believe people in metro area should not be allowed to utilize a V/line country train. That is reasonable in a perspective of a metro train is a good quality service, runs on time, clean and not vandalized with graffiti. But it is not a service that possesses this quality. It is severely run down in terms of quality and effectiveness in delivering services to mention a couple of these points.

It's also a service where you are significantly at greater risk of being a victim of assault, metro services do not have a conductor as V/line services do.

Metro passengers experience these problems from a day to day basis and they are sick of it, which is why so many do not want to travel on them if a V/line service can give them the alternative. If your train is delayed and gets stuck in the middle between stations would you prefer to be on a metro train or a v/line train?

As the rule is changed metro passengers must use only metro trains, then you must invest efforts in providing a metro service that is reliable, clean and overall efficient and effective, give it a significant upgrade. Is it going to be the case after this rule is imposed?

The issue of Pakenham passengers not being able to board V/line trains, Andrews is removing crossings for a start and initiating projects on building high capacity trains:

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/andrews-government-to-spend-13b-on-highcapacity-trains-20150629-gi0ek0.html

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-03-31/victorian-labor-dumps-major-rail-upgrade-announces-new-project/6361250

The impression is that there will be more trains, for higher frequencies, coming from these articles. The quality of the passenger saloon/cabin, unsure, if they can be cleaner and less prone to damage from vandalism it would be better.

Currently the way the system is run, it's why there are many around the Pakenham area who do not appreciate this at all, the V/line passengers I hope, could sometimes spare a thought to the reality of metro train travel, it's very tough in peak hours for regional commuters when you have to stand all the way, but people on the Pakenham line are being served a substandard quality they don't deserve, everybody in the metro area is.

I would like to have the right to ride V/line trains from Pakenham to the CBD. The V/line passengers don't want additional passengers from metro as it takes up more room when it's overcrowded. It takes more space when there are more frequent trains with metro, but if only metro services were of high standards and quality.

The metro services need to be drastically improved and provide every metro passenger a truly reasonable alternative.

Which is why this stunt from Matthew Guy is flabbergasting. It is ignorant of the severe chronic problem not just confined to the issue of train frequency, but breakdown and cancellation rates that occur with metro trains, refusing to deal with the issue of the metropolitan train system that is underfunded and lacking in quality.

Give back the arrangement of permitting metro passengers on V/line trains in Pakenham, what about the metro trains service quality? What about the metro rail tunnel that your party refused to build calling the construction period a 'Berlin Wall' for Melbourne?

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/swanston-street-ripup-for-melbourne-metro-rail-akin-to-berlin-wall-napthine-20140217-32v55.html

Stick up a 'Melbourne rail link' going from South Yarra to Fishermans bend to Southern Cross. What is your plan to improve metropolitan train services? The last one of the stunts was just to send an X'trap down the Frankston line, the suspension on them are the least comfortable compared with the Comengs and the Siemens.

I do not appreciate Labor in the lead up to the election, I still am disappointed that the cancellation of the East West Link, is not resulting in an alternative transport project to address the chronic overcrowding of Eastern Freeway traffic.

We want a party voted in to government that will do better than red and blue, they are incompetent and pathetic. The opposition is still running with it's hidden agenda, they are still obfuscating their intention to advance their vested interests, dressing up removal of metro passengers from V/line trains as a backward solution, at the same time insensitively calling their solution to reverse the change as correct motion while refusing to discuss a real alternative to begin overhauling and critically upgrading our public transport system to be universally co-ordinated and efficient, metropolitan and regional.

How about a compromise: special paper tickets for Pakenham commuters that wish to use Vline services to the city. Double the cost of an existing Zone 1/2 full fare, no concessions available. That solves all of the problems that people seem to have with Melbourne's railways at once!

You want to hold up a regional 'express' service into the city by boarding at Pakenham? Pay your way for the privilege!

How about: A) special paper tickets for Pakenham commuters that wish to use Vline services to the city?

Surely option A) is crazy, but also, not crazy enough:-

* B) Increase number of cars on V/Line train, lock them, open these cars at Packenham for suburban pax?
* C) Run a suburban train(s) 2 min before or 2 min after V/Line train, with same limited stopping pattern (or both before and after)?
* D) Amalgamate V/Line train with suburban train waiting at Packenham, so as to use only one path?
* E) If amalgamation of Diesel and Electric trains unfeasible, amalgamate with compatible suburban diesel train?
* F) Terminate V/Line 3 car train at Packenham, and connect with 6 car electric train with limited stopping pattern?
* or
* G) Enforce pickup and set down restrictions, like what happens in Sydney.

The airline industry have something that might be called "Capacity Management" which tries
* to sell all seats, even if the last seats on an emptyish plane are sold cheaply
* makes pax wanting cheap seats wait for next flight if current plane is sold out with full fare pax.

* B) Increase number of cars on V/Line train, lock them, open these cars at Pakenham for suburban pax?
* C) Run a suburban train(s) 2 min before or 2 min after V/Line train, with same limited stopping pattern (or both before and after)?
* D) Amalgamate V/Line train with suburban train waiting at Pakenham, so as to use only one path?
* E) If amalgamation of Diesel and Electric trains infeasible, amalgamate with compatible suburban diesel train?
* F) Terminate V/Line 3 car train at Pakenham, and connect with 6 car electric train with limited stopping pattern?
* or
* G) Enforce pickup and set down restrictions, like what happens in Sydney.

B) requires new rollingstock
C) is an inefficient use of suburban rollingstock but feasible
D) is way too bureaucratically complex to ever happen, even if it were technically feasible
E) rollingstock doesn't exist in Victoria - only V/Line has DMUs (Stony Point uses V/Line Sprinters)
F) almost happened under the previous Liberal government and would have led to the Latrobe Valley attempting secession
G) already happens at Pakenham, leading to the local whingeing that you read on here and elsewhere

My proposal was made in jest. The real solution is to massively upgrade the Dandenong corridor, not fiddle around with rollingstock 'amalgamation' or too-clever-by-half timetabling.

My proposal was made in jest. The real solution is to massively upgrade the Dandenong corridor.

My proposals B to F were also made in jest, and show what might be possible if money is no object and waste is the watchword.

Would massive upgrade of the Dandenong corridor include a Bi-Di third track from where to where?

Complete level crossing removal, moving block signalling (aka High Capacity Signalling) and eventually partial (or even complete) quadruplication from Caulfield to Dandenong. Oh, and new longer electric sardine cans.

* G) Enforce pickup and set down restrictions, like what happens in Sydney.

Now THAT is the funniest thing I have read on Railpage all year!

The ONLY services where pickup and setdown restrictions are enforced are the long distance services (XPT and Xplorer).

Other services (comparable to V/Line services) which have them - Newcastle, Bathurst, South Coast - they are ignored.

I regularly get the evening Bathurst Bullet, first set down Katoomba, but stopping at Parramatta, Penrith and Springwood. Last time I counted, over 100 people got off at these stations, and despite Transport Command Police being in attendance at Penrith, not one person was stopped.

The rest of the comparable services - like all of my services from Katoomba - have NO restrictions, and people can even travel between Central and Strathfield on such services.

Dave

Complete level crossing removal, moving block signalling (aka High Capacity Signalling) and eventually partial (or even complete) quadruplication from Caulfield to Dandenong. Oh, and new longer electric sardine cans.

Until we actually do get this we will keep going around in circles.

I think for the time being the previous arrangement before now of letting Pakenham passengers on should have been kept, until all of these upgrades are implemented.

Sardine cans aren't the best reality in rail commuting but nevertheless it is a fact, many inevitably will need to use it.

Furthermore, these sardine can rollingstock should not be made to travel a period of time in excess of 60 minutes. It's just too long to force people to have to stand. Getting travel time under an hour between the CBD and terminating station of the metropolitan area will be the best in my opinion.

Looking at the pictures and discussions from passengers on overcrowded V/line trains, sitting on the floor proves this, it's just too much to stand in excess of 2 hours.

Hence the rule that you must reserve seats to Warnambool or Bairnsdale for example....

I believe Quadruplicating to Dandenong will also prove a strong case for duplicating to and extending beyond Cranbourne.

These CBD trains originating out of Traralgon definitely need more services, overcrowding on them is ridiculous, standing for 2 hours is too much.

We need to be reminded the current state of the Liberals as with dodgy Matthew Guy and his band of puppets, will only leave us to rot, society won't move forward with them. There is no such credibility and should be written off permanently, they do not deserve another chance as long as they continue to forward agendas to which they were voted out for.

Now THAT is the funniest thing I have read on Railpage all year!

The ONLY services where pickup and setdown restrictions are enforced are the long distance services (XPT and Xplorer).

Other services (comparable to V/Line services) which have them - Newcastle, Bathurst, South Coast - they are ignored.

I regularly get the evening Bathurst Bullet, first set down Katoomba, but stopping at Parramatta, Penrith and Springwood. Last time I counted, over 100 people got off at these stations, and despite Transport Command Police being in attendance at Penrith, not one person was stopped.

The rest of the comparable services - like all of my services from Katoomba - have NO restrictions, and people can even travel between Central and Strathfield on such services.

Dave

Thanks for that info, Doc. Looks like the authorities in NSW have a sensible approach to this sort of situation.

I emailed the PTV with my thoughts on the issue and a short time later, received a reply from a lady who I don't think had much of an idea. One of the things she said was that with the opening of the RRL and new timetables there would be a lot MORE Vline trains in the Metro area. I emailed back saying that this was not so - the RLL was designed to remove many Vline movements to free up more paths for Metro services. She replied, repeating the same garbage about more Vline services passing through Metro area. I think that the customer service department of PTV must employ people who have absolutely no idea and are told to cut and paste garbage in the hope that people will just give up!

I sent a similar email to the transport minister and from her office, I received a slightly better response. One of my suggestions was to remove the restrictions for Pakenham people on off-peak Vline services. The reply said that the idea had some merit and would be considered. The reply also said that at the moment the rules had not actually come into affect and if they were introduced
it wouldn't be until early next year. At this point in time customers were to be "encouraged" to not use Vline for Pakenham - Melbourne travel.

Speaking as a regular traveller on the V/Line service, the issue of allowing Met travellers onto the V/Line trains becomes contentious only on down trains and mostly only at peak times. Under the old arrangements, any passenger boarding the train after Flinders Street would have to stand all the way to Pakenham, because the Met travellers would fill the train at Flinders street. And as a matter of interest, most of the train guards operating on the services were of the opinion that this was not fair on the long distance travellers.

Out of peak times it was not an issue and not on trains heading towards the city.

Here is something simple

Peak services no Metro Passengers
Off Peak services, let them on (at the conductors discretion, providing there is space)  

You have half pleased everyone

It is unfair that the government has stopped Pakenham passengers using V/Line. The government should build extra rollingstock so there is a dedicated V/Line carriage for Pakenham travellers. If not possible then those who travel further afield simply have to be squeezed in. It’s just the way it needs to be. Those travelling to and from Pakenham must have the comfortable option of travelling with V/Line. Thank heavens for this policy by the opposition leader.

Here is something simple

Peak services no Metro Passengers
Off Peak services, let them on (at the conductors discretion, providing there is space)  

You have half pleased everyone

Woah, hold up there, that's way too logical for Railpage.

It is unfair that the government has stopped Pakenham passengers using V/Line. The government should build extra rollingstock so there is a dedicated V/Line carriage for Pakenham travellers. If not possible then those who travel further afield simply have to be squeezed in. It’s just the way it needs to be. Those travelling to and from Pakenham must have the comfortable option of travelling with V/Line. Thank heavens for this policy by the opposition leader.

Careful with what you wish for.

We definitely do need more rollingstock, though it's not only just for V/line but metro as well. Provide more room for passengers to utilize and distribute load evenly across the network.

But I am unsure of your plan for dedicating a carriage to Pakenham passengers. Carriages of all the trains are meant to be generally used across most if not all of the designated zones of operation. Regional trains throughout most if not all regional areas and metro trains, (well to be specific on metro they don't really, xtraps only out to clifton hill and burnley groups only, siemens out to south yarra and northern groups only) but nevertheless as all the metro rollingstock category, comings, xtraps and siemens are together they provide a service throughout the metro area overall.



In particular this line, Pakenham, the station is a metro station, if it can only take metro passengers, it should also service the rest of the metro stations it will attend throughout the journey. Otherwise it only wastes resources.

Dedicating a carriage to Pakenham passengers wouldn't be an efficient use of rollingstock, I am assuming that the dedicated carriage opens up to regional passengers once the entire train exits the suburban network? Even with that the V/line passengers should still be allowed the rights just as any Pakenham passenger to get a seat when they board the scheduled V/line bound service to Traralgon, or beyond.

Isolating it to suburban passengers would not only create an imbalance it's also inappropriate that seats would be available in there, where a regional passenger would not be allowed to sit.



It's a long long journey for people coming out of the CBD all the way back to Traralgon. I suspect a carriage would not have all the seats filled up if it is locked only for passengers getting off at Caulfield, Dandenong and Pakenham, it's very inefficient and will squeeze even more regional passengers into the carriages they are allowed only, while they can't spread out to the carriages that would be locked off to them.



As much as V/line passengers can pick seats on their trains as the service arrangement provides, it also allows metro passengers the same rights on board under the arrangement we are familiar as previous (Again I am not sure, but are reports that it’s not a rule yet to bar Pakenham passengers from V/line trains, only encouraging them not to). Pakenham is the edge border of the suburban zone of metropolitan trains, and it is a very long travel, understandable, and that is because the trains:

• Can’t run at high or higher speeds more of the time
• Insufficient frequencies, meaning morning Pakenham metro trains have all seats, filling up quickly by Dandenong, but evening you’d be lucky to have a seat to Dandenong once the train is out of the city loop and coming into Richmond.
• Rollingstock at capacity, this also should be looked into, in ways of increasing capacity for every train.

V/line’s main purpose is to service the Regional areas and regional stations to the CBD or even cross regional passengers. The option of providing Pakenham passengers and Sunbury passengers to board them is good, considerate and offers a quick express into the CBD and interchanging stations as it’s a long distance by metropolitan standards and the longest journey times.



But this option is given, I believe throughout as the metro trains don’t provide a service that is frequent enough, and helps take off some load from metro trains, looking back lets say a decade, not as many regional passengers would utilize these trains would they? If I am correct, and there was more room for regional trains back them.



Today chronic overcrowding is common with us and regional trains are no exception, with people sometimes having to sit on the floor, it’s 2 hours of travel time from Pakenham to Traralgon, you just can’t stand that long. Letting metro passengers on, even isolating one carriage to metropolitan passengers, if you’re suggesting just for Pakenham and then to Dandenong, Caulfield to CBD will waste the carriage resources.



You can be confident that that kind of arrangement will make both Regional passengers on the Traralgon line and metropolitan passengers along the line between Dandenong and Caulfield very very angry. It would be very unpleasant for a conductor enforcing that kind of set up on fuming passengers.



Last and most importantly, be wary when you hear announcements from politicians, I get the impression you don’t realize the ones making this announcement are guilty of severe misconduct, these are the kinds of people who will interfere and obstruct sensible debate. They will shamelessly attempt to deceive the public, believing they are better for government. They are not. There is also no guarantee they will keep to their word.



Even if they do, the state overall will have even more severe problems, by the time if they get voted back in and succeed in their ulterior agendas, the damage they inflict will be staggering, and there will be even more crowded and likely, sub standard quality regional trains, tracks and the timetables will force all services to take even more time. Not to mention a privatized V/line



Seriously, look into the one who is making this announcement this… ‘person’ and the party’s conduct.

It is unfair that the government has stopped Pakenham passengers using V/Line. The government should build extra rollingstock so there is a dedicated V/Line carriage for Pakenham travellers. If not possible then those who travel further afield simply have to be squeezed in. It’s just the way it needs to be. Those travelling to and from Pakenham must have the comfortable option of travelling with V/Line. Thank heavens for this policy by the opposition leader.

Are you serious? You are wowed by M Guy? This is Matthew Guy you are talking about. A member of a Government who made it intolerable for a Moderate Liberal (T Ballieu) and replaced him with a Neo Conservative (D Napthine) and who couldnt give a toss about public transport. That is just a knee jerk reaction and another soundbite from M Guy and so many other Vic Pollies who are renowned for it.  I am sorry to sound harsh but , if you and others buy this, well it is no wonder Victoria PT Systems are the basket case it is !!!

He has to do better than that, surely.

Micahel

No, I wasn’t being serious. I posted out of annoyance I agree with you… People complained about Labor doing nothing for PT and Myki then the liberals were voted in only to deliver miniscule PT projects, and putting their eggs in one basket (EWL).

To be honest, it’s not right for country pax who after a long day work in the city should have to give up seats to metropolitan commuters. V/Line is a regional transport service so it should be only for country passengers except where there is no metro service. Simple

Tarneit.

There goes the rubbish argument presented above.

No, I wasn’t being serious. I posted out of annoyance I agree with you… People complained about Labor doing nothing for PT and Myki then the liberals were voted in only to deliver miniscule PT projects, and putting their eggs in one basket (EWL).

To be honest, it’s not right for country pax who after a long day work in the city should have to give up seats to metropolitan commuters. V/Line is a regional transport service so it should be only for country passengers except where there is no metro service. Simple

It called public transport and no one is guarantee seat from a non reserved train service.

To be honest, Country pax has no right to complain about the long distance train trip based on they decide to live in the country side and decide to live so fair from work.

I have a workable solution -  in peak hour stop all V/Line trains at Pakenham and then run an electric train (for example : interurban multiple unit (IMU) which has capacity of 880) and run it will nearly same stopping patterns as V/Line services.)

If you do not want buy new train sets and then just upgrade some X'Trapolis - by putting in better seats for example:



Now instead of having 4 V/Line trains having total capacity of 970, we have 4 electric trains with capacity of around 800 - 1000, so times that by 4 you get 3200 to 4000 and that is 4 times more people can use public transport system.


Even better if they buy interurban multiple unit (like they have Gold Coast) instead of running them as 6 carriages sets  run them as 9 carriages sets and then you should have capacity of at lease 1,100 per train and which more then 4 V/Line trains and which has total capacity of 970 in total.

End outcome - 3,430 more people can use public transport.