That's not what I am saying. But I am saying that Rail Passengers should pay more through the farebox towards the Operation of the system. 15 % is far too low, remember for every $1 spent on rail 85c goes towards the day to day running and only 15c towards Capital works. $42.00 off peak return to Bendigo for example is far too cheap.

Michael

Why should rail have to recover all costs and the road systems and users run off general revenue, there's plenty of overseas experience to show increasing spending on public roads is not the answer and bye the way fuel tax's do not go any where near to paying for all the expenses of roads.
In reality Victorian's and Australians are living in a financial fairy land as they CLEARLY think they do NOT have to pay for transport infrastucture, that simply has to change or we will really be in trouble!

woodford

Here here

That's not what I am saying. But I am saying that Rail Passengers should pay more through the farebox towards the Operation of the system. 15 % is far too low, remember for every $1 spent on rail 85c goes towards the day to day running and only 15c towards Capital works. $42.00 off peak return to Bendigo for example is far too cheap.

Michael

Why should rail have to recover all costs and the road systems and users run off general revenue, there's plenty of overseas experience to show increasing spending on public roads is not the answer and bye the way fuel tax's do not go any where near to paying for all the expenses of roads.
In reality Victorian's and Australians are living in a financial fairy land as they CLEARLY think they do NOT have to pay for transport infrastucture, that simply has to change or we will really be in trouble!

woodford

Could not have said it better myself @woodford

In fact I would argue it is even worse than that.  I would argue the rot is so badly ingrained into Australian policy making (especially in the rust belt states) I cannot see a carbon reduced future at all for Australia.

Moreover, I cannot see how Australia can improve on the cost efficiency of its transport networks without a policy shift to rail or at least away from road transport as a panacea.  It is a race or slide to the bottom. Railways in Australia lack innovation.

When having coffee with a friend last week who is a model rail roader, talking about the benefits of electrification to Bacchus Marsh (and even Ballarat) he stated when asked about his thoughts on the project "it would not be economically viable".  Interesting view from someone without a finance background.

The economic rationalists have tainted public policy and ingrained into the mind of the average Australia that all projects must have a positive cashflow return. (As for NPV let's leave that alone for now as social and environmental benefits should also be considered in an NPV calc.)

My response was (if you are interested) what is the cost of not doing anything and should we now stop innovating as a country?

Sorting out the Deer Park Junction (i.e with a flyover) should be an urgent priority.  Duplicating to Bacchus Marsh next.  

As for electrification, there's the question of whether they use the new RRL tracks between Sunshine and SCS, or merge with the existing electrified Sunbury line at Sunshine.  If the latter, then a flyover at Sunshine would be necessary too IMO given the congestion occurring there today.

The proposed E6 rail corridor could offer some alternative routing in the distant future.  I'm thinking Melton - Diggers Rest - Bulla - Melb Airport - Albion - SCS.  Just trying to think outside the square...

That's not what I am saying. But I am saying that Rail Passengers should pay more through the farebox towards the Operation of the system. 15 % is far too low, remember for every $1 spent on rail 85c goes towards the day to day running and only 15c towards Capital works. $42.00 off peak return to Bendigo for example is far too cheap.

Michael

Most people from Ballarat travelling to Melbourne is travelling in the peak time and normally will be used MYKI pass and MYKI daily rate (over 69 days) is $10.78 per day or travelling only 5 days a week =  7* 10.78 = $75.46 /5 = $15.09 a day

That's pretty rich coming from you, Mike.

Specifically I was referring to the armchair posters 'vision' of running overhead wires to Ballarat and ridiculous comments that electric trains would be faster than VLocity's on the hills etc.

Clearly VLocity's will be at the end of their economic life before electrification is considered, that won't happen before 2045. By then I'll be pushing up daisies and the population will probably have reached that critical point for the consideration of wires.

The dreamers in here aren't considering where all the VLocity's going to go in the interim should their pie-in-the-sky thought bubbles ever get up, as there are still about 10 VLocity sets (at least) yet to be delivered...flog them off to NSW or something

Mike.

How about duplication to Bacchus Marsh, electrification to Melton (at 25kVAC to lower costs) and station bypass tracks at Rockbank, Caroline Springs, Deer Park and Ardeer?

This approach would be a sensible project. Could we also consider running the electrified services on the new RRL tracks between Sunshine and SCS into powered platforms at SCS?

I would extended to Bacchus Marsh and not stop at Melton.

Higher speeds would more easily be achieved through electrification of the entire route to at least Ballan but why would you stop there?

Higher speeds would more easily be achieved through electrification of the entire route to at least Ballan but why would you stop there?

It just gets sillier and sillier..

Must be a full moon atm.

No chance of higher speeds if the alignment isn't improved and the electric rollingstock doesn't have tilt. Fast acceleration, yes. Higher speeds, no. Vlocity DMUs have plenty of power to get up the grades when they have a good run up.

Why should rail have to recover all costs and the road systems and users run off general revenue, there's plenty of overseas experience to show increasing spending on public roads is not the answer and bye the way fuel tax's do not go any where near to paying for all the expenses of roads.
In reality Victorian's and Australians are living in a financial fairy land as they CLEARLY think they do NOT have to pay for transport infrastucture, that simply has to change or we will really be in trouble!

woodford

Why should rail have to recover all costs?

I am not saying that, but I am arguing that more revenue must be taken from the fare box. 40 to 45% rather than just 15% as is the case with V/Line. The fares are too low!!

Road systems and users run off general revenue

Yes but most of the Tax excise from fuel goes into General Revenue, 75% (Wikipedia). That's why Governments like to fund roads.

In reality Victorian's and Australians are living in a financial fairy land as they CLEARLY think they do NOT have to pay for transport infrastucture, that simply has to change or we will really be in trouble!

I agree but Australians are the masters of Cheaparsery and unless this changes we in Victoria will have a mediocre system for eternity.

Michael

Could not have said it better myself @woodford

In fact I would argue it is even worse than that.  I would argue the rot is so badly ingrained into Australian policy making (especially in the rust belt states) I cannot see a carbon reduced future at all for Australia.

Moreover, I cannot see how Australia can improve on the cost efficiency of its transport networks without a policy shift to rail or at least away from road transport as a panacea.  It is a race or slide to the bottom. Railways in Australia lack innovation.

When having coffee with a friend last week who is a model rail roader, talking about the benefits of electrification to Bacchus Marsh (and even Ballarat) he stated when asked about his thoughts on the project "it would not be economically viable".  Interesting view from someone without a finance background.

The economic rationalists have tainted public policy and ingrained into the mind of the average Australia that all projects must have a positive cashflow return. (As for NPV let's leave that alone for now as social and environmental benefits should also be considered in an NPV calc.)

My response was (if you are interested) what is the cost of not doing anything and should we now stop innovating as a country?

My response was (if you are interested) what is the cost of not doing anything and should we now stop innovating as a country?

As regards to Rail, we could not innovate our way out of a Paper bag!!! Passenger Rail is the responsibility of the States. Here in Victoria it has never been taken seriously. Look at Project planning. For roads, a group of experts model traffic flow and based on that draw up Projects for submission and they are sent to DoI. For Public Transport, there is a link in the PTV Website allowing members of the Public to have their say. Good old paralysis by analysis. Running Railways is a complex operation, how would Joe Public have the faintest idea about what improvements can be made!!!

Compare Victoria to NSW when it comes to Train Procurement. When NSW orders trains they order lots of them, 78 8 car trains for the latest tranche. What do we do in Victoria, 5 hers, 6 there 7 here. Of Xtraps, a design that is well obsolete and basic or Velocities a DMU with a maximum speed of 100mph at an eye watering $6.5 Million per carriage. The new High Speed Class 801 EMU's in the UK come in at $5.5 Million per carriage and they can do 140mph!!!

When the Coalition won office in NSW Gladys Berejiklian head hunted Howard Collins, a man with over 40 years service with London Underground. In Victoria for the Bendigo Rail Project, they put the local MP for Ballarat West in charge.

In Victoria, nothing will happen. The judgement is out about Melbourne Metro Rail, because we do not have the expertise.


Michael