Tunnelling starts on North-West Rail Link

 
Topic moved from News by dthead on 16 Mar 2015 22:01
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
The Western Express makes an ideal train to the Airport.

The new airport is along way out, you need an express for the travel time to the city by train to be realistic for travellers. At the same time the Paramatta and points west also need and deserve faster access to the city and VV.
Its roughly 25km from Leppington to Badgery's Creek and up to the Rooty Hill which is where a loop line might run. As this is past Blacktown this makes it perfect for a Western Express,
ie
- City Circle / Redfern
- Straithfield
- Paramatta
- Westmead
- Blacktown
- Badger's Creek Airport Loop Line to Glenfield Stations
- East Hills
- Wolli Creek and Airport line stations to City Cirlce

Penrith and Richmond Line users are catered for as they can catch their respective local services from Blacktown.  

ESR, sth Branch is now Randwick only. The SSLR kills part of the demand in the more southern lower density suburbs for costly UG railway. I staying with a 4.5km curved extension terminating under the south edge of Randwick near the uni and hospital.
Station at Queens Park, Coogee and Randwick. Spaced about 1.2 to 1.5km apart and similar distance to the beaches.
Sorry, still don't agree with you.  It's much more direct from Badgerys Creek to the CBD via the SWRL and East Hills Line.  An express service should run to the City Circle via Sydenham, not Sydney Airport.  I can't see the point of a loop from the Western Express.  The whole purpose of the Western Express is to provide faster journey times for outer suburban services from Penrith and Richmond.  If, as you're suggesting, that these commuters would have to change at Blacktown to reach the CBD, what's the benefit for them?  

As for the ESR, Maroubra Junction is a high density centre with significant residential redevelopment in recent years.  A railway extension would provide a faster service to the CBD than the light rail.  If the light rail was extended from Kingsford to Maroubra Junction it would provide a complimentary service along a different route.
Transtopic

Its a holistic approach.


- There will be more and more Airport to Airport traffic
- There will be traffic from BC Airport to the West and Nth
- The will be traffic from BC Airport to the city
- The Express service can provide near cross platform interchange at Blacktown if done well, maybe not for both branches
- The will be growing traffic from Para to City  CBD's
- Avoids more complex time tables and routes, easy for the public to follow. This is the Airports loop train!
- Western Express corridor can still have services to Emu Plains and Richmond.
- Not sure what would be faster, going via East Hills and Airport or going via Para?

- Similar approach taken by Munich. At Munich Airport trains don't continue, rather go back to provide a buffer in the timetable and with 10min between trains is actually fed by one track only on one side at least and the next station 5min away the trains from city spilt at the platform (Airport station is off a branch from another line) in 1min or join heading to city (honestly it was done so fast that if I had not looked out the door as we left I wouldn't have seen it. So potentially The Western Express could be a 3 way split? Or maybe just 2.

ESR I'll take your word for it.

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  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
I been digging through my old computer in an attempt to find my Townhall redesign(I did it about a year ago) here it is. I did lose my cityrail expansion map so Sad

https://flic.kr/p/xAnNgo

Its basically a rough sketch of Townhall I did about a year ago. Basically We have two concourses with 3 levels of platforms sandwiched between them. There are links on the upper concourse to the surface as well as Pitt Street Station and Darling Harbour. The lower concourse is a transfer concourse. Basically signage will force transferring people to the lower concourse even though it may be faster in some cases to use the upper concourse. This creates separation of transferring passengers from the ones entering and exiting the station.

As you said this will paralyse the system for as you say 2 - 3 years. So the alternative solution is a bigger Pitt St Station for new lines and potentially diverting existing lines (less disruption) to said station at Pitt St.
fixitguy
Not a bad idea. get rid of contra flow people traffic. Dubai Metro I think does the same at some of the bigger stations. Escalators go down at one end and up at the other.

Once the new line is built you could probably get away with it by progressing closing down 1 or more platforms, allowing trains to continue but not stop. Similar was done in Brisbane. Off Peak I think you can have CC and NSL trains use the same tracks
  fixitguy Chief Train Controller

Location: In Carriage 4 on a Tangara
Not a bad idea. get rid of contra flow people traffic. Dubai Metro I think does the same at some of the bigger stations. Escalators go down at one end and up at the other.

Once the new line is built you could probably get away with it by progressing closing down 1 or more platforms, allowing trains to continue but not stop. Similar was done in Brisbane. Off Peak I think you can have CC and NSL trains use the same tracks
RTT_Rules

Thank you. I used to have a lot more of this but it was all lost when I upgraded my hard drives to SSDs.

I believe the best current solution to reduce overcrowding at Townhall and Wynard is to force more people into St James and Museum. I believe every gov't proposal for either heavy rail or metro has involved a combination of Martin Place, Pitt St and St James.

My post Sydney Metro plan involves rerouting Western Express trains anti clockwise though the CC (temporary measure to encourage people to use Museum or St James) and then building a new East West tunnel. My plans for the tunnel are below

Tunnel entrance at Illawarra Junction conenction to the Main Suburban Lines
- Railway Square/UTS ( 2 platforms + turnback facilities (Bondi Junction style) for Ilawarra or Airport Trains)
-Casino/Darling Harbour/Pyrmont (2 platforms)
-Barangaroo South (2 platforms)
-Martin Place (2 platforms + the 2 existing ESR platforms)
-Pitt St (2 plafroms + the existing Sydney metro platforms and any additional platforms) (this station would be a hub of some sorts)
-Central (2 platforms + turnback facilities (Bondi Junction style) for Western Express trains)
Tunnel exit between central and redfern east of the current airport line with connections to the Airport tunnel and platforms 9 and 10 Redfern for Airport line and Illawarra trains respectively
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE

Thank you. I used to have a lot more of this but it was all lost when I upgraded my hard drives to SSDs.

I believe the best current solution to reduce overcrowding at Townhall and Wynard is to force more people into St James and Museum. I believe every gov't proposal for either heavy rail or metro has involved a combination of Martin Place, Pitt St and St James.

My post Sydney Metro plan involves rerouting Western Express trains anti clockwise though the CC (temporary measure to encourage people to use Museum or St James) and then building a new East West tunnel. My plans for the tunnel are below

Tunnel entrance at Illawarra Junction conenction to the Main Suburban Lines
- Railway Square/UTS ( 2 platforms + turnback facilities (Bondi Junction style) for Ilawarra or Airport Trains)
-Casino/Darling Harbour/Pyrmont (2 platforms)
-Barangaroo South (2 platforms)
-Martin Place (2 platforms + the 2 existing ESR platforms)
-Pitt St (2 plafroms + the existing Sydney metro platforms and any additional platforms) (this station would be a hub of some sorts)
-Central (2 platforms + turnback facilities (Bondi Junction style) for Western Express trains)
Tunnel exit between central and redfern east of the current airport line with connections to the Airport tunnel and platforms 9 and 10 Redfern for Airport line and Illawarra trains respectively
fixitguy
Went to india for a year, had a nice near new PC, forgot many files I wanted for work plus some personal photos of a NZ holiday (just prior to using Facebook), PC in storage. Came home turned it on, all good. Kids playing outside, better be a good day. Turned off and went outside, came in 3hr later turned on, HD Foooked, no one was able to recovery anything.

...................

Tunnel entrance at Illawarra Junction conenction to the Main Suburban Lines
- Railway Square/UTS ( 2 platforms + turnback facilities (Bondi Junction style) for Ilawarra or Airport Trains)

WHY turn these trains back, only just got to edge of city?

-Casino/Darling Harbour/Pyrmont (2 platforms)
-Barangaroo South (2 platforms)
-Martin Place (2 platforms + the 2 existing ESR platforms)
-Pitt St (2 plafroms + the existing Sydney metro platforms and any additional platforms) (this station would be a hub of some sorts)
-Central (2 platforms + turnback facilities (Bondi Junction style) for Western Express trains)
WHY turn these trains back, only just got to edge of city?
Tunnel exit between central and redfern east of the current airport line with connections to the Airport tunnel and platforms 9 and 10 Redfern for Airport line and Illawarra trains respectively

Why not let the trains run around the city, that's the brilliant concept of the loops everywhere!

This is why I like the Loop as below

CC - Mascot AP Line stations - East Hills - (SW'rn Express) Glenfield - BC Airport Line stations - Blacktown - Westmead - Paramatta - (Western Express) Straithfield - CC

and VV

Multiple purpose train service that links key areas, the two airports, The western airport loop service, Sydney CBD, Para CBD, Western and SW Express services, Western to SW connection, in a practical loop service that ticks alot of boxes.

On the same infrastructure you can also run

- Richmond Line - Blacktown, Westmead, Paramatta, (Nth' Western Express) Straithfield,  CC and reverse back out to same stopping pattern.

- Emu Plains Line - Blacktown, Westmead, Paramatta, (Nth' Western Express) Straithfield,  CC and reverse back out to same stopping pattern.


Regards
Shane
  georges Chief Train Controller

Have not noticed this event previously reported on Railpage. On 2 August, 3642  was the first steam loco to traverse the North Strathfield Underpass.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49KW8C_R1DI
  fixitguy Chief Train Controller

Location: In Carriage 4 on a Tangara

Thank you. I used to have a lot more of this but it was all lost when I upgraded my hard drives to SSDs.

I believe the best current solution to reduce overcrowding at Townhall and Wynard is to force more people into St James and Museum. I believe every gov't proposal for either heavy rail or metro has involved a combination of Martin Place, Pitt St and St James.

My post Sydney Metro plan involves rerouting Western Express trains anti clockwise though the CC (temporary measure to encourage people to use Museum or St James) and then building a new East West tunnel. My plans for the tunnel are below

Tunnel entrance at Illawarra Junction conenction to the Main Suburban Lines
- Railway Square/UTS ( 2 platforms + turnback facilities (Bondi Junction style) for Ilawarra or Airport Trains)
-Casino/Darling Harbour/Pyrmont (2 platforms)
-Barangaroo South (2 platforms)
-Martin Place (2 platforms + the 2 existing ESR platforms)
-Pitt St (2 plafroms + the existing Sydney metro platforms and any additional platforms) (this station would be a hub of some sorts)
-Central (2 platforms + turnback facilities (Bondi Junction style) for Western Express trains)
Tunnel exit between central and redfern east of the current airport line with connections to the Airport tunnel and platforms 9 and 10 Redfern for Airport line and Illawarra trains respectivelyWent to india for a year, had a nice near new PC, forgot many files I wanted for work plus some personal photos of a NZ holiday (just prior to using Facebook), PC in storage. Came home turned it on, all good. Kids playing outside, better be a good day. Turned off and went outside, came in 3hr later turned on, HD Foooked, no one was able to recovery anything.

...................

Tunnel entrance at Illawarra Junction conenction to the Main Suburban Lines
- Railway Square/UTS ( 2 platforms + turnback facilities (Bondi Junction style) for Ilawarra or Airport Trains)

WHY turn these trains back, only just got to edge of city?

-Casino/Darling Harbour/Pyrmont (2 platforms)
-Barangaroo South (2 platforms)
-Martin Place (2 platforms + the 2 existing ESR platforms)
-Pitt St (2 plafroms + the existing Sydney metro platforms and any additional platforms) (this station would be a hub of some sorts)
-Central (2 platforms + turnback facilities (Bondi Junction style) for Western Express trains)
WHY turn these trains back, only just got to edge of city?
Tunnel exit between central and redfern east of the current airport line with connections to the Airport tunnel and platforms 9 and 10 Redfern for Airport line and Illawarra trains respectively

Why not let the trains run around the city, that's the brilliant concept of the loops everywhere!

This is why I like the Loop as below

CC - Mascot AP Line stations - East Hills - (SW'rn Express) Glenfield - BC Airport Line stations - Blacktown - Westmead - Paramatta - (Western Express) Straithfield - CC

and VV

Multiple purpose train service that links key areas, the two airports, The western airport loop service, Sydney CBD, Para CBD, Western and SW Express services, Western to SW connection, in a practical loop service that ticks alot of boxes.

On the same infrastructure you can also run

- Richmond Line - Blacktown, Westmead, Paramatta, (Nth' Western Express) Straithfield,  CC and reverse back out to same stopping pattern.

- Emu Plains Line - Blacktown, Westmead, Paramatta, (Nth' Western Express) Straithfield,  CC and reverse back out to same stopping pattern.


Regards
Shane
RTT_Rules
The Western Express Trains stop at Railway Square/UTS first and then travel around the loop towards Central through what I will now call the Western CC. The Illawarra and Airport Trains will travel the other way stopping at Central first and Railway Square/UTS last. The most northerly point of the loop is Martin Place and there are two central stops. The turnbacks are for i will say maybe 1/4 to 1/2 (based on demand analysis) of the trains that will not do through running. You can think of it as replacing the CC of your plan with the new Western CC. Ill get started on a map shortly. Will upload soon
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
The Western Express Trains stop at Railway Square/UTS first and then travel around the loop towards Central through what I will now call the Western CC. The Illawarra and Airport Trains will travel the other way stopping at Central first and Railway Square/UTS last. The most northerly point of the loop is Martin Place and there are two central stops. The turnbacks are for i will say maybe 1/4 to 1/2 (based on demand analysis) of the trains that will not do through running. You can think of it as replacing the CC of your plan with the new Western CC. Ill get started on a map shortly. Will upload soon
fixitguy
hi,
Yes but my trains don't terminate in the city, which is what I think you propose. You are basically running twice the trains through the tunnels than required as the trains arrive from each end full then empty until the exit the loop and return.

What I like about my airport loop train is that its always going somewhere and hence doesn't have the usual fill then decline in passenger load until the terminus, then run back.
  fixitguy Chief Train Controller

Location: In Carriage 4 on a Tangara
Yes but my trains don't terminate in the city, which is what I think you propose. You are basically running twice the trains through the tunnels than required as the trains arrive from each end full then empty until the exit the loop and return.

What I like about my airport loop train is that its always going somewhere and hence doesn't have the usual fill then decline in passenger load until the terminus, then run back.
RTT_Rules
my map is below
https://flic.kr/p/y1pYx8

Basically due to space limitations between Central and the Illawarra Junction the only actual loop is the Airport Loop that you proposed. Trains from Richmond or St Marys will either run to Hurstville or Sutherland or terminate at Central and trains from Hurstville or Sutherland will either run to St Marys or Richmond or terminate at UTS. I anticipate due to demand most trains will not be terminating.

A X of some sorts to get a proper loop running on the WCC which would be very hard to do.

The stopping pattern from Hurstville and Sutherland is
-Sutherland, all stops, Hustville, Kogarah, Wolli Creek, Sydenham, WCC.
  Transtopic Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
my map is below
https://flic.kr/p/y1pYx8

Basically due to space limitations between Central and the Illawarra Junction the only actual loop is the Airport Loop that you proposed. Trains from Richmond or St Marys will either run to Hurstville or Sutherland or terminate at Central and trains from Hurstville or Sutherland will either run to St Marys or Richmond or terminate at UTS. I anticipate due to demand most trains will not be terminating.

A X of some sorts to get a proper loop running on the WCC which would be very hard to do.

The stopping pattern from Hurstville and Sutherland is
-Sutherland, all stops, Hustville, Kogarah, Wolli Creek, Sydenham, WCC.
fixitguy
I like your concept, but can I suggest a variation, on the assumption that the Sydney Metro extension via Barangaroo, Martin Place, Pitt St and Central is realised.  

As a first stage, I propose the revival of the City Relief Line as part of the Western Express, from Eveleigh (Illawarra Junction) to Barangaroo Central/North with intermediate underground stations at Redfern, Railway Square, Haymarket, Town Hall West and Wynyard (Margaret St).  The Barangaroo Station would interchange with the metro line.

In conjunction with this project, although it need not be at the same time, the Airport Line be diverted from the City Circle to the unused underground platforms 26 & 27 at Central and extended to the unused centre platforms at St James, where turnback facilities already exist.  Cross platform transfers would be possible with the City Circle and the diversion of the Airport Line would free up 12tph in the peak.

In the longer term, the Barangaroo and St James Stations could be linked by a new City Circle line, with possible intermediate stations, allowing through running.

Complimentary to this, would be an east/west metro link from say Bondi Junction along the Oxford St corridor via St James (new station), Wynyard (Margaret St), Pyrmont, White Bay, Rozelle and the Victoria Rd corridor to Epping.

I have already expressed by opposition to conversion of the Bankstown Line to metro and instead favour a new underground metro link along the Inner West corridor, allowing the existing surface Inner West Local to be used exclusively for express South line services via both Regents Park and Granville.  A metro branch would also be desirable from Newtown to Sans Souci via Sydenham and Brighton-le-Sands.  This would be far more beneficial for the overall Sydney rail network.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
I like your concept, but can I suggest a variation, on the assumption that the Sydney Metro extension via Barangaroo, Martin Place, Pitt St and Central is realised.  

As a first stage, I propose the revival of the City Relief Line as part of the Western Express, from Eveleigh (Illawarra Junction) to Barangaroo Central/North with intermediate underground stations at Redfern, Railway Square, Haymarket, Town Hall West and Wynyard (Margaret St).  The Barangaroo Station would interchange with the metro line.

In conjunction with this project, although it need not be at the same time, the Airport Line be diverted from the City Circle to the unused underground platforms 26 & 27 at Central and extended to the unused centre platforms at St James, where turnback facilities already exist.  Cross platform transfers would be possible with the City Circle and the diversion of the Airport Line would free up 12tph in the peak.

In the longer term, the Barangaroo and St James Stations could be linked by a new City Circle line, with possible intermediate stations, allowing through running.

Complimentary to this, would be an east/west metro link from say Bondi Junction along the Oxford St corridor via St James (new station), Wynyard (Margaret St), Pyrmont, White Bay, Rozelle and the Victoria Rd corridor to Epping.

I have already expressed by opposition to conversion of the Bankstown Line to metro and instead favour a new underground metro link along the Inner West corridor, allowing the existing surface Inner West Local to be used exclusively for express South line services via both Regents Park and Granville.  A metro branch would also be desirable from Newtown to Sans Souci via Sydenham and Brighton-le-Sands.  This would be far more beneficial for the overall Sydney rail network.
Transtopic

Not agreeing with the airport option, you already know mine. However going with your statement assume the Sydney Metro is a done deal. I will suggest that your Airport line proposal also include new platforms at Pitt Street Station, otherwise the Airport misses too many city stations and requires transfers. At St James I would add a shunt neck to enable faster turn around and consistent platform use (hate to be on wrong one with baggage.

Inner West Metro
The Inner West Metro option is a good alt, although more expensive than converting the Bankstown line. However the issue is how many trains in the tunnels does it save from the tunnels? The inner west Metro stations only remove 4 trains per hour, the Bankstown line is 8. I think you would still convert the Bankstown Line but ensure you go all the way to Liverpool.

This would open up 12 slots in the tunnels and 12 slots on the Suburban tracks on the Inner West.

SW Line
Assume 4 more trains from Liverpool to a total of 12 to help increase capacity and provide a faster alt to the city.

Remaining 8 slots then get give to trains from the Main West, (lets say Blacktown) stopping all to Straithfield and then same limited express to the city as SW. Currently there is 4t/hr that do this from Blacktown, so an increase from 4 to 8t/hr.

Assume the SW line trains are replaced by the Y link services west of the Granville, maintaining efficient track capacity.

The Western Main now has 8 more slots for Western Express Services + extra Nth Main Suburban services.
(Assume between Homebush and Blacktown, nth pair of tracks are dedicated for Express and Interurban.


Nth Line and Western Line services to Straithfield
Something to think about,
- Western Express services to Blacktown have or could have a similar/same stopping pattern as Blue Mountains Services from Redfern to Straithfield.

Likewise

- Nth Line Suburban and Central Coast trains have same stopping pattern between Redfern and Straithfield.

Hence the Nth tracks from Redfern would be basically reserved for Nth Line services and the Western Line express suburban and Mountain services would use the centre tracks.

This would aid sectorisation and eliminate the mixing of four tracks at Straithfield with two lines. This would also require the installation of a pair of fly overs or under just west of Redfern.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Yes but my trains don't terminate in the city, which is what I think you propose. You are basically running twice the trains through the tunnels than required as the trains arrive from each end full then empty until the exit the loop and return.

What I like about my airport loop train is that its always going somewhere and hence doesn't have the usual fill then decline in passenger load until the terminus, then run back.
my map is below
https://flic.kr/p/y1pYx8

Basically due to space limitations between Central and the Illawarra Junction the only actual loop is the Airport Loop that you proposed. Trains from Richmond or St Marys will either run to Hurstville or Sutherland or terminate at Central and trains from Hurstville or Sutherland will either run to St Marys or Richmond or terminate at UTS. I anticipate due to demand most trains will not be terminating.

A X of some sorts to get a proper loop running on the WCC which would be very hard to do.

The stopping pattern from Hurstville and Sutherland is
-Sutherland, all stops, Hustville, Kogarah, Wolli Creek, Sydenham, WCC.
fixitguy
Ok, I see your point.
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

my map is below
https://flic.kr/p/y1pYx8
fixitguy



I've added the Bradfield (1925 IIRC) plan to fixit's map.  

There was to be an inner City Circle (Purple): ESR into St James from under Oxford St, the O'connel st, an interchange with the Yellow line at Martin Place & Pitt St, then Town Hall using what are now the ESR platforms, then under George St/Parra Rd to be the new Western suburbs railway.

The 2nd crossing was to be a Northern Beaches railway, with stops at Wynyard (1&2), the Martin Place/Pitt St interchange, another station in Pitt St where fixit has marked it, then on to Central.  Not sure if this was to use the redundant surface platforms at Central, but I suspect so.  The dives for the Southern Line (aimed at Botany) were built between the flying junctions and Redfern, and were to lead to platforms where the current ESR Redfern is built.
  fixitguy Chief Train Controller

Location: In Carriage 4 on a Tangara
Ok, I see your point.
RTT_Rules
glad you do (if that's the right way to phrase it. Meant in a nice way)

I've added the Bradfield (1925 IIRC) plan to fixit's map.  
djf01
Now when did I give you permission to use my stuff. lol jks but nice work. Bradfield was a genius. If only we has some as visionary as him (wait we do its Ron Christie with a proper govt and billions of dollars to spend Smile) Permission has been granted by me although probably not by google.

@Transtopic
Your plan may actually be cheaper due to using existing infrastructure but I doubt Central 26 and 27 are any useful due to weight issues or something (I heard it somewhere. Don't quote me on it)

Personally I would avoid Barangaroo North (its just a park) and Wynard (overcrowding) and instead have stops at Barangaroo South (employment and Wynard Relief) and Pitt St (megahub larger than but complementing Townhall)

.
.
.
.
.

Now to add to my plans as Im not bothered creating a new post

From my plans which assume (what I will call Stage 1. Its purpose to make my WCC plan work)
- Sydney Metro is built to full
- Inner West Metro (connection to existing Metro) is built to relieve South Line
- Badegerys Creek is built to full
- WCC

This allows running of
- Airport Loop Services (both directions) as per Rtt_Rules
- Western Express from both Richmond and Emu Plains connecting to Hurstville running express (some services extended to Sutherland all stops from Hurstville) (running on Illawara locals)
- Western Express from both Richmond and Emu Plains terminating at Central
- Hurstville express (some services start from Sutherland then all stops to Hurstville) terminating at UTS (running on Illawara locals)

- This should effectively give the CC to
- Revesby all stops
- South Line express
- Campbelltown Express? (I'm conflicted between WCC termination at Central, CC loop and back or replacing them, with south line express)

The rest of the ESR will be serviced by Cronulla and Waterfall (now a mix of all stops and limited stop services on Illawarra Mains)

Stage 2 extensions will be to increase services
- Sextup to Granville
- Quad to Penrith
- Quad to Sutherland
- Quadding of other areas of high demand and need

Stage 3 will be where we can go mad and build new lines
- ESR extension to Bondi Beach and Malabar
- whatever else Ron Christie proposed (as he is a legend)

Done. now time for the criticism (or love).
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

Bradfield was a genius.
fixitguy

Probably.

But Bradfield's plan, and Christie's plan, and for that matter most of the plans presented here - are just too ambitious for the likely passenger demand.  They all revolve around building lots of new lines to solve what are essentially operational rather than capacity problems.

A quick note on large loops: they are generally a bad idea.  Great for model railways, but in real life, not so hot.  It's very difficult to balance loads with different stopping patterns, and there needs to a "terminus" timetabled *somewhere* in their runs for trains to dwell off the critical path and provide timetable stability.  Besides, there is enough debate about Badgery's creek needing one railway, much less two.

I'm still firmly a hub and spoke man when it comes to heavy rail topology.  I think cross city PT links are important, but I don't see the need for these to be built in your premier high capacity format.
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

Town Hall Station:

I know I've posted this before, but I think there are 3 realistic upgrade options for TH: in increasing order of cost:

1) 4 new platform access stairs, one at each end of platforms 2 and 3.  (and completion of the 5th & 6th stairs at Wynyard as designed by Bradfield but never implemented).

The goal of this is to improve the current passenger distribution along the train (currently 0.7, my target is 0.8), which is typically currently focused near the centre of the train which are the only access points at the key loading stations.

These 4 new stair cases adds as much new HR capacity as the proposed metro 2nd crossing, and directly where it's needed.

2) A new platform 3 to the west.
It *might* be possible to add this to the west of the current alignment.  There would be support columns on the platform, it's a question of exactly how close to the lip they are.

But realistically, that means a new alignment 3m to the west with a wide modern platform with evenly distributed egress points.  This would allow either the Down shore to be a double sided platform (with the existing platform 3 widened over the old UP alignment, or the Down shore could be re-aligned through the existing platform 3 (not as "easy" as it might sound).



3) 4 hunking big new platforms beneath Kent St, feeding into Wynyard 1&2 + 3&4.
This would allow full bifurcated operations (would need a bit more work elsewhere): 30tph with a *higher* capacity train format associated with fleet renewal (ie, longer decks with seating for 150/car).  

All of these projects require shutdowns, but we're typically talking months not years, while the new project is commissioned, not built.
  eddyb Chief Train Controller

djf01
"I'm still firmly a hub and spoke man when it comes to heavy rail topology.  I think cross city PT links are important, but I don't see the need for these to be built in your premier high capacity format."

I thought the old hub and spoke was regarded as so yesterday and I am glad that someone apart from me can see it too has its place

Transporting freight is very much the same as transporting people and sometimes it is best to go direct if there is sufficient demand and sometimes via a hub and most times there needs to be a bit of both again depending on demand.

What do you think of some subways being all stop big loops while there are other subways being fast non stop to a hub
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
djf01
"I'm still firmly a hub and spoke man when it comes to heavy rail topology.  I think cross city PT links are important, but I don't see the need for these to be built in your premier high capacity format."

I thought the old hub and spoke was regarded as so yesterday and I am glad that someone apart from me can see it too has its place

Transporting freight is very much the same as transporting people and sometimes it is best to go direct if there is sufficient demand and sometimes via a hub and most times there needs to be a bit of both again depending on demand.

What do you think of some subways being all stop big loops while there are other subways being fast non stop to a hub
eddyb

Express subways on same routes as all stoppers will require separate tracks (common in New York I believe).

Down side it very expensive to build 1 subway, even more to build 2 and do we have the population to justify it? Probably not!
  eddyb Chief Train Controller

RTT_Rules
Actually I had meant the all stoppers doing a big circle with the non stoppers hub and spoke to the centre to cater for the lesser demand of people who want to go one from side of the city to the other quick smart and are prepared to pay a bit extra for a fast trip rather than going all around the city.

These days it seems everyone wants a grid system where there are many transfer points and generally regard hub and spoke as old fashioned.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Bradfield was a genius.

Probably.

But Bradfield's plan, and Christie's plan, and for that matter most of the plans presented here - are just too ambitious for the likely passenger demand.  They all revolve around building lots of new lines to solve what are essentially operational rather than capacity problems.

A quick note on large loops: they are generally a bad idea.  Great for model railways, but in real life, not so hot.  It's very difficult to balance loads with different stopping patterns, and there needs to a "terminus" timetabled *somewhere* in their runs for trains to dwell off the critical path and provide timetable stability.  Besides, there is enough debate about Badgery's creek needing one railway, much less two.

I'm still firmly a hub and spoke man when it comes to heavy rail topology.  I think cross city PT links are important, but I don't see the need for these to be built in your premier high capacity format.
djf01

On the large loop via the BC Airport.

My proposal was to build one railway connecting the Western Main to Glenfield (Leppington). I understand your point on reliability and made mention earlier that there is an option to copy Munich as if it was a continuous loop with no buffer once behind it would never catch up.

Munich has a line loop one direction to the Airport from the center city station and another line loop the other way to the airport from the center city station. The two lines at the airport are actually a terminus, so they return back the way they came, not run through.

Note: the two lines to Munich airport are not actually the same line, one is S1 which is shown as starting in the city and the other is S8 which comes from the opposite suburban location, however I don't see this as relevant to my proposal and there is no reason the trains departing nth to Paramatta cannot return via Leppington. I think there are some advantages in doing so as rolling stock can be made more luggage friendly and train fit out and internal signage designed to cater for the Airport users especially non-locals.

The through traffic from Western Main to SW Main or stations either side of the airport is likely to be limited so won't impact a great deal.

Or you have an extended dwel time at the airport of say 3-5min to factor in delays and/or driver have a pee and a coffee/tea/milo/coke/water/milk. Not sure if Sydney trains still do this, but there used to be longer dwell times in the time tabled of old at major stations on longer run trains to I assume provide some buffer against minor delays and slower passenger boarding/departing. If the train was returning back the way it came, the dwell time is usually 5-6min in this day and age anyway, some cities less than 3min via having driver rotation.

I don't propose the Airport loop be built or fully completed prior to 2030 and while the airport demand is unlikely to justify a railway on its own for longer than that, its likely the BC Airport line will be like Perth's Airport line and the existing one in Sydney, killing multiple birds with one stone in the one project which just so happens to include a station at the airport. Not like Brisbane Airport where the line has but on purpose only!
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE

Now to add to my plans as Im not bothered creating a new post

From my plans which assume (what I will call Stage 1. Its purpose to make my WCC plan work)
- Sydney Metro is built to full
- Inner West Metro (connection to existing Metro) is built to relieve South Line
- Badegerys Creek is built to full
- WCC

This allows running of
- Airport Loop Services (both directions) as per Rtt_Rules
- Western Express from both Richmond and Emu Plains connecting to Hurstville running express (some services extended to Sutherland all stops from Hurstville) (running on Illawara locals)
- Western Express from both Richmond and Emu Plains terminating at Central
- Hurstville express (some services start from Sutherland then all stops to Hurstville) terminating at UTS (running on Illawara locals)

- This should effectively give the CC to
- Revesby all stops
- South Line express
- Campbelltown Express? (I'm conflicted between WCC termination at Central, CC loop and back or replacing them, with south line express)

The rest of the ESR will be serviced by Cronulla and Waterfall (now a mix of all stops and limited stop services on Illawarra Mains)

Stage 2 extensions will be to increase services
- Sextup to Granville
- Quad to Penrith
- Quad to Sutherland
- Quadding of other areas of high demand and need

Stage 3 will be where we can go mad and build new lines
- ESR extension to Bondi Beach and Malabar
- whatever else Ron Christie proposed (as he is a legend)

Done. now time for the criticism (or love).
fixitguy

In general its praise.

- Tripple track to EP to keep the suburbans out of the way of the Mountains.


I quickly noted someone said that many of the proposals here are ambitious, but cannot remember who.

Whether it be Fixitguys proposal above or my own, I see these being built over 25-30years. Total cost probably pushing $30B on top of the current Metro.

What I think should happen is that the major parties get together and form a team to plan out the direction and future for the suburban network. One party doing this is pointless as happened in Qd with Beatie's SEQQIP although its still a baseline me thinks. Sign it off in groups of 4 years plans, the further out plans would have less and less detail and subject to change as required.

Funding, basically its $1B per year, about 3 to 4 times what they do now. So this needs to be resolved and more or higher taxes should not be deemed the only solution. Users should also be part of the funding puzzle.
- Surcharges on new stations for 10-15 years.
- Move to cheaper technology for Greenfield such as Metro, mostly for underground roll out
- More commercial activity on stations, why not lease out a whole station for redevelopment and retail use?
- Selling airspace
- Finding ways to get more funding out of govt without higher taxes.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
RTT_Rules
Actually I had meant the all stoppers doing a big circle with the non stoppers hub and spoke to the centre to cater for the lesser demand of people who want to go one from side of the city to the other quick smart and are prepared to pay a bit extra for a fast trip rather than going all around the city.

These days it seems everyone wants a grid system where there are many transfer points and generally regard hub and spoke as old fashioned.
eddyb

Hub and spoke have had their day. Look at Brisbane and especially Melbourne, want to go 5-10km across the city, need to travel 50km by rail to get there. The CBD is becoming less of a focal point as Paramatta, Chatswood etc become mini cities of their own. The current major failing for even Cityrail now is that if you don't work in the city or near the line you live on, it can be painful/time consuming to get there and you end up driving. I'm not against making people change trains once or even twice to get to their destination, but it should be practical.

I think you are refering to the City mainly, but I'm looking at the whole greater Sydney. We need more grid connections, hence my reference to Epping - Paramatta, 6-7 stations on Metro vs going via the Nth Main and then west or eventually via the NWRL and Richond Line. Also Epping to Main West through Gladsville, ESR to Randwick LR and BC Airport loop line.
  eddyb Chief Train Controller

RTT-Rules

No, I am not thinking of east Sydney as the hub but Parramatta where I believe there should be a subway hub to terminate north and south fastrails and any non stop radials as they become an economical proposition such as the now east Sydney CBD.

How long do you think it would take to go from Bella Vista to Bankstown with the metro via east Sydney CBD and I have taken half an hour to go two blocks a couple of times so driving is out.

But then again I may be wrong about Sydney becoming a megacity I will never know.
  fixitguy Chief Train Controller

Location: In Carriage 4 on a Tangara
In general its praise.

- Tripple track to EP to keep the suburbans out of the way of the Mountains.


I quickly noted someone said that many of the proposals here are ambitious, but cannot remember who.

Whether it be Fixitguys proposal above or my own, I see these being built over 25-30years. Total cost probably pushing $30B on top of the current Metro.

What I think should happen is that the major parties get together and form a team to plan out the direction and future for the suburban network. One party doing this is pointless as happened in Qd with Beatie's SEQQIP although its still a baseline me thinks. Sign it off in groups of 4 years plans, the further out plans would have less and less detail and subject to change as required.

Funding, basically its $1B per year, about 3 to 4 times what they do now. So this needs to be resolved and more or higher taxes should not be deemed the only solution. Users should also be part of the funding puzzle.
- Surcharges on new stations for 10-15 years.
- Move to cheaper technology for Greenfield such as Metro, mostly for underground roll out
- More commercial activity on stations, why not lease out a whole station for redevelopment and retail use?
- Selling airspace
- Finding ways to get more funding out of govt without higher taxes.
RTT_Rules
Thank you

I do like the joint model for transport (and other areas like schools and hospitals). We can't have 4 years of savings and then 4 years of spending. I would prefer actually 8 year plans (2 terms of govt). I would also advocate an independent or two on the board. Someone like Ron Christie would do nicely as he knows the network having run it and acted as a consultant for rail planning.

I would like to see naming rights for stations like stadiums (eg Samsung Central Station, Telstra Museum (their office is right next to it), Blackberry Town) but it would be weird most stations as the sponsor names don't really match the station names.

I don't see a surcharge working. Just look at the Airport Line (although that is way too high).

Airspace is a problem due to NIMBYs but it has to be pointed out that suitable development for each station should be found. We don't all need a Chatswood or St Lenoards. Sometimes a block of flats will do.

I also like to see some (1/2) of the road tolls be diverted to fund public transport. How much is road maintenance anyways.

Increased taxes actually won't hurt although the states actually get next to nothing of the taxes (85% to feds I believe).
We should ideally increase taxes by 5% over 5 years (0.5%/yr) to help our budget (fed) with the end of the mining boom and all.

But then again I may be wrong about Sydney becoming a megacity I will never know.
eddyb

I don't think Sydney is becoming a megahub. Mainly due to NIMBYs and the fact we love our houses. I remember a plan made by an economist or something about turning everything east of Olympic Park into units, flats or apartments and it getting ridiculed in the comments of the article. I think Sydney will still be dependent on the CBD but also with smaller CBDs at Paramattta, Macquarie Park, Chatswood and to a smaller extent Olympic Park.
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

But then again I may be wrong about Sydney becoming a megacity I will never know.
eddyb

If Sydney were in Europe, it would be the 6th largest city.  Were it in Germany, it would be easily the largest city, and more than twice the size of every city other than Berlin.

It would be the 6th largest city in the USA too, only fractionally smaller than Miami or Philadelphia.

I think it's safe to say Sydney is a megacity.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Thank you

I do like the joint model for transport (and other areas like schools and hospitals). We can't have 4 years of savings and then 4 years of spending. I would prefer actually 8 year plans (2 terms of govt). I would also advocate an independent or two on the board. Someone like Ron Christie would do nicely as he knows the network having run it and acted as a consultant for rail planning.

I would like to see naming rights for stations like stadiums (eg Samsung Central Station, Telstra Museum (their office is right next to it), Blackberry Town) but it would be weird most stations as the sponsor names don't really match the station names.

I don't see a surcharge working. Just look at the Airport Line (although that is way too high).

Airspace is a problem due to NIMBYs but it has to be pointed out that suitable development for each station should be found. We don't all need a Chatswood or St Lenoards. Sometimes a block of flats will do.

I also like to see some (1/2) of the road tolls be diverted to fund public transport. How much is road maintenance anyways.

Increased taxes actually won't hurt although the states actually get next to nothing of the taxes (85% to feds I believe).
We should ideally increase taxes by 5% over 5 years (0.5%/yr) to help our budget (fed) with the end of the mining boom and all.


I don't think Sydney is becoming a megahub. Mainly due to NIMBYs and the fact we love our houses. I remember a plan made by an economist or something about turning everything east of Olympic Park into units, flats or apartments and it getting ridiculed in the comments of the article. I think Sydney will still be dependent on the CBD but also with smaller CBDs at Paramattta, Macquarie Park, Chatswood and to a smaller extent Olympic Park.
fixitguy
Yes borrowing is point less unless its a means to an end, but if you are doing something ongoing for 30+ years, borrowing to build railways its an excise to spend more than you would if you just waited a few years.

Sydney is large, but not densely populated like Europe and some Nth America, although its changing.

Development over rail should always match the surrounding areas.

Naming rights is a winner in other places. If you can get $1mpa from major stations, name away.

Problem feds are facing is that social welfare is eating into the budget as a % more every year and unrelated to current downturn. 1980 it was 10%, 2010 it was 20%. They need more from us to pay more out, plus rising health care costs. The GST is ikely to be increased, but this is a state tax not feds. Feds just managed it. So maybe. Its currently about $50B, increasing range and rate will bring in up to $20B more, NSW will get about 20% I guess, so thats enough.

To help make rail more viable, the new stuff needs to target high density areas or redevelopment areas. The high dnesity areas of old were often low income ghetto's. Living in Dubai, my eyes have been opened to medium and and high density medium to high income developments.Despite a few myths, suits will catch trains and PT and plenty of evidence to prove they do in Sydney. If you have time, look up Dubai MArina and JLT development which straddle the hwy and Metro line. 250,000 people in an area 2 x 4km at best. Rental prices on Marina side are $50kpa for 1500 sqr foot 2beders with sprawling gardens, pools and gym in 40 story building complex with 6 buildings and about 50 or so villas.

ANyway, put rail in these areas and you will also boost your weekend and Off-peak usage compared to now where many stations are ghost towns off-peak.

The surcharge needs to be lower than airport line. Would $5 to $10/wk for a weekly be excessive?

Overall we cannot keep rolling out new Rail PT with more or equal than the current operating subsidy of 65-70%, each new piece needs to have a clear projection that within 10 years its better than 50%. And to be honest maybe in some areas of the network maybe money pit off-peak services need to be bused. Carlingford needs to go DOO.

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