Access to railway stations

 
  eddyb Chief Train Controller

In my humble opinion

People will complete their trip by car rather than pay to park and ride at a station but to provide free parking next to a station  costs about $50,000 per car space and I believe it would be more economical to provide a few free buses doing one hour routes starting and finishing at railway stations with a 10 minute station stop so not only would people get there in time to catch the train but it would still be there to take train passengers to their destination.



A second way would be to build a multi purpose large free carpark below a building that is paid for by the shops and residents above like the proposed Parramatta Parrahub.



The third way is like Manly or Sydenham where people use an old cheap bike as transport to a ferry or station and do not worry about lockers or hats but just leave it with all the other old bikes and continue their trip on public transport.

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  thadocta Chief Commissioner

Location: Katoomba
In my humble opinion, you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

You are seriously suggesting that people will willingly sit in log jammed traffic, crawling along, to avoid paying for parking?

Whilst I agree with the bus option, it needs to be reliable, and reliability and buses in Sydney do not gel well together..

I do think that parking should be paid for, but it should be in conjunction with the Opal card, along the lines of a small charge if train travel is undertaken, a MASSIVE charge if there is no train travel.

I know of one person here in Katoomba who parks in the commuter car-park, then walks to work at the local newsagent, why should she get parking provided by the railways intended for commuters?

I am all in favour of gates at entry and exit, tap on with your Opal card, if you travel by train, charged a dollar or three, if you are using it as a local parking space, then $50 sounds appropriate for all day parking at a carpark intended for commuters.

Dave
  eddyb Chief Train Controller

Thanks for those points, it is a good one about how reliable buses would be in Sydney traffic and I don't know how much traffic it would take to get people out of their lovely comfortable cars.
  seb2351 Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
Thanks for those points, it is a good one about how reliable buses would be in Sydney traffic and I don't know how much traffic it would take to get people out of their lovely comfortable cars.
eddyb
When I lived in Sydney, 3 factors would determine whether I chose to drive into work:
* Parking at the station
* Crowding on the train (not so much an issue when I was in uniform, but on days off)
* Timetabling and availability of services when I finished work.

Parking was my number 1 priority, because I would then use my car to drive to the shops on the way home etc. Given the 3rd world timetabling service we got on the South Coast line, I would drive to Waterfall. This negated the point about timetabling to a certain degree, but still didn't resolve the issue when starting late/finishing early.

Ultimately, I want to make 1 journey to the train station, a reasonable trip time wise to my destination and then arrive at work. If I have to waste my time looking for a parking spot, jostling for a train that is at 130% loading and then take 2 hours for a journey that a car takes 1 hour, why would I bother.

Focus your attention on my first three points, and you will see trains share of transport increase substantially.
  eddyb Chief Train Controller

seb2351

I think when the metro is operational it will free up trains and lines to address the second and third problems and as buses can go almost as fast as cars and could stop right next to the Waterfall station it could make sense to provide a few free buses Wollongong/Waterfall that could be paid for by a parking charge at the station but there would still be a parking problem where the bus leaves from unless it stopped at a number of bus stops.

Perhaps the best way forward would be a combination of peak direction one hour route free buses collecting people and taking them to the limited train stops like North Wollongong and Thirroul etc. being paid for by parking charges at stations.
  viaprojects Chief Train Controller

In my humble opinion




A second way would be to build a multi purpose large free carpark below a building that is paid for by the shops and residents above like the proposed Parramatta Parrahub.




eddyb



some hub transport locations have solutions.

Parramatta has a few. rail , metro bus , free bus loop and lock ups for bikes. including paid parking.

however even with the metro there is no real transport option to connect Parramatta rail to the metro system. unless you like busses even then it's better to drive to a main location

light rail is on the table but there has been no final plan on which route.
  eddyb Chief Train Controller

After thinking about what different people have said on different threads it appears that Perth has the best balance in getting to the railway station.



It would be hard to know how much people would be prepared to pay to park near a station but it could start off at 50 cents per hour on your Opal card as you go out through the boom gate and increase it until there are a few empty parking spaces as now they are all filled to capacity.



The other day I went up to see how the NWRL was going and as I headed east along Showground road I noticed a line of traffic trying to turn left from a side street on my left and 5 cars back there was a bus that would never be on schedule as it would take him 10 minutes just to get around the corner.



Maybe if the buses were free to the station less cars would be jamming up the roads and buses would be on time but I do not know how much it would cost to run a standard bus.



One guy thinks a car space would only cost about $35,000 in a large carpark below shops and could be done for $5 per day which would be more affordable than parking in the CBD.



Old bikes are a great way like Sydenham and Manly as they do not need lockers.



Where a train has limited stops I think it would be just as cheap and more convenient to have free buses to take passengers to limited stop stations like North Wollongong and Thirroul etc. so there could be more fast limited stop trains.


  cityrail-rulez Chief Train Controller

This is quite funny, last time I checked parking at stations is free
I have no idea where you would get the car parking cost $50,000 per car space, unless it's a new law the government needs to help pay for the Newcastle line to be removed for rehabilition of the CBD:lol:
  eddyb Chief Train Controller

This is quite funny, last time I checked parking at stations is free
I have no idea where you would get the car parking cost $50,000 per car space, unless it's a new law the government needs to help pay for the Newcastle line to be removed for rehabilition of the CBD:lol:
cityrail-rulez
Well it says here http://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/news/getting-on-with-the-job 1,200 car park spaces for $170,000,000 but there is a bit of other stuff so I think $50,000 per space would be quite Conservative and I do not know if that $170m includes the land value.
  johnboy Chief Commissioner

Location: Up the road from Gulgong
In my humble opinion

People will complete their trip by car rather than pay to park and ride at a station but to provide free parking next to a station  costs about $50,000 per car space and I believe it would be more economical to provide a few free buses doing one hour routes starting and finishing at railway stations with a 10 minute station stop so not only would people get there in time to catch the train but it would still be there to take train passengers to their destination.



A second way would be to build a multi purpose large free carpark below a building that is paid for by the shops and residents above like the proposed Parramatta Parrahub.



The third way is like Manly or Sydenham where people use an old cheap bike as transport to a ferry or station and do not worry about lockers or hats but just leave it with all the other old bikes and continue their trip on public transport.

eddyb
"Costs" per car parking is an interesting way pollies wll put it. A number carparks are owned by Councils, or state paid on Council land. It is not a large "cost" but gurrus will argue that it "cost $thousands per year. The cost of 'free buses' to railway stations is a long term cost that will have little effect. Bus travel to stations is often not used because of cost but because people do not want to use a bus.

Parramatta (or any major hub) would be the worse place to place a carpark
1) It is already jammed packed with cars thanks to Westfields and those too lazy to catch a train to Parramatta
2) You have a few communter carpark near any shops and it is often taken up by shop keepers or shoppers, not communters.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
In my humble opinion, you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

You are seriously suggesting that people will willingly sit in log jammed traffic, crawling along, to avoid paying for parking?

Whilst I agree with the bus option, it needs to be reliable, and reliability and buses in Sydney do not gel well together..

I do think that parking should be paid for, but it should be in conjunction with the Opal card, along the lines of a small charge if train travel is undertaken, a MASSIVE charge if there is no train travel.

I know of one person here in Katoomba who parks in the commuter car-park, then walks to work at the local newsagent, why should she get parking provided by the railways intended for commuters?

I am all in favour of gates at entry and exit, tap on with your Opal card, if you travel by train, charged a dollar or three, if you are using it as a local parking space, then $50 sounds appropriate for all day parking at a carpark intended for commuters.

Dave
thadocta
Tend to agree, ticket holders get a discount. Non ticket holders get charged full commercial rates, what ever that is which will be based on the actual carpark. Not all carparks would cost $50k to build.

Free buses and carparks are novel enough idea, but in reality PT is already heavily subsidised and this just adds to the cost and detracts the govt from encouraging more users. ie they make more money from the GST from the petrol.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE

"Costs" per car parking is an interesting way pollies wll put it. A number carparks are owned by Councils, or state paid on Council land. It is not a large "cost" but gurrus will argue that it "cost $thousands per year. The cost of 'free buses' to railway stations is a long term cost that will have little effect. Bus travel to stations is often not used because of cost but because people do not want to use a bus.

Parramatta (or any major hub) would be the worse place to place a carpark
1) It is already jammed packed with cars thanks to Westfields and those too lazy to catch a train to Parramatta
2) You have a few communter carpark near any shops and it is often taken up by shop keepers or shoppers, not communters.
johnboy

I think bus links to railway stations are effective when they come from some distance away and go mostly the straightest route to the station. However to collect people in a low density area 3-6km away from the station in a circular route is a painfully slow trip and likely to have a low yield in pax. In the right areas bikes will always be attractive to some, but in hot climates in business attire, this will never have the success rate you see in cooler more dense Europe.
  eddyb Chief Train Controller

johnboy
I agree that you would not want anymore cars in Parramatta but my Parrahub proposal is adjacent to the M4 so people would park their cars there and switch to public transport instead of clogging up the M4 further east.

Actually my proposal would have 15,000 free parking spaces and it could really clear many streets of Parramatta for a better flow of traffic.

I once asked a world public transport expert what he thought of my proposal and he had the same reaction as you and he actually said    "I stopped reading when I read about the 15,000 space parking station"  

As you know it is almost impossible to get people interested in something new and it has to be economically viable even if it has great social advantages so last night I thought that fast trains will eventually be connected to Sydney from north and south and rather than spending $1b to build an underground station perhaps they could terminate at the subway station and pay a fee.
  viaprojects Chief Train Controller


my Parrahub proposal is adjacent to the M4 so people would park their cars there and switch to public transport instead of clogging up the M4 further east.
eddyb


dump the idea. The M4 is being upgraded ( WestConnex ) and the area you planning "Auto Alley" is being cleaned up with housing. any traffic problem is now east of Homebush as they have started work to widen the M4.



Actually my proposal would have 15,000 free parking spaces and it could really clear many streets of Parramatta for a better flow of traffic.
eddyb


Parramatta council is not looking for parking spaces. it's all ready a transport hub and is looking for New options for the buses that pack the station.

hint Parramatta council has a transport plan. it's just waiting on the state government..
  eddyb Chief Train Controller

Well in my opinion a $2b, 15 minute metro directly to Parramatta would get more bang for the buck then the westconnex and I have looked at Parramatta council's plan and in my opinion they are a bit short sighted.

First they want to put mixed use buildings of limited height in auto alley and they do not even consider a subway hub that will be needed in the future to not only connect all of greater Sydney but they totally ignore the fact that at sometime there needs an underground north and south fast rail station.

They want to allow tall buildings to crowd out the heritage buildings and as the centre is moving northwards I suppose they expect people to use the NWRL for a world tour to the present CBD.

I think they just put my concept in fantasy section. GRRR
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

I do think that parking should be paid for, but it should be in conjunction with the Opal card, along the lines of a small charge if train travel is undertaken, a MASSIVE charge if there is no train travel.

I know of one person here in Katoomba who parks in the commuter car-park, then walks to work at the local newsagent, why should she get parking provided by the railways intended for commuters?

I am all in favour of gates at entry and exit, tap on with your Opal card, if you travel by train, charged a dollar or three, if you are using it as a local parking space, then $50 sounds appropriate for all day parking at a carpark intended for commuters.
thadocta
The Metrocard in Adelaide is able to be used in this way at the Modbury (O-Bahn interchange) parking station opened in January last year.

If your Metrocard is still 'active' (AdelaideMetro ticketing works on a two hour window of unlimited transfers) from travelling within the two hours before you attempt to exit the car park, you get charged a $2 flat rate for the day when you scan the Metrocard at the boom gate

If you haven't been on public transport, the charge is $10 for the day which can be paid by Metrocard or a paper ticket. In this instance, the casual parking fee of $10 is high enough to act as a disincentive because the adjacent shopping centre has free (albeit less secure, and mostly not sheltered) parking which is much closer to the centre than the O-Bahn parking. That would obviously be different in different places.

Metrocard can also be used for accessing bike lockups at a number of major stations (I think it's 8 rail, 3 O-Bahn and one conventional bus interchange) which are free for unlimited use after paying a $10 yearly fee and presenting photo ID for it to be activated.

I once asked a world public transport expert what he thought of my proposal and he had the same reaction as you and he actually said    "I stopped reading when I read about the 15,000 space parking station"  
eddyb
And quite rightly so.

Even without considering climate change and despite the massively lavish subsidisation of private vehicle use in Australia to hold off its obsolescence, Peak Car is coming. At some point Australia needs to stop clinging to start planning for the future instead of continuing to throw billions of dollars down the toilet in a desperate attempt to stay stuck in the past.

The one positive of wasting space on car parking is that when it becomes obsolete, every car park can be converted into 8-10 bike parks!

In the right areas bikes will always be attractive to some, but in hot climates in business attire, this will never have the success rate you see in cooler more dense Europe.
RTT_Rules
It's more to do with Australian attitudes than any good reason.

Europe experienced a heatwave around the start of July which had many cities in even the cycling paradise countries of northern Europe experiencing maximum temperatures in the high thirties and low forties just like we get. And yet for some reason there was no difference in the number of people cycling to work or to train stations.

There are three big attitude changes we need to make here:
  1. Realise that wearing a suit and tie in hot weather is ridiculous and doesn't make you more productive than wearing a short sleeve shirt and lightweight trousers or even shorts.
  2. Dump our ridiculous mandatory helmet laws (the easiest step - it's just a stroke of a pen!) which have been the main cause of killing off cycling in Australia as a normal form of transport. Helmets would still of course be used for sport cycling - I like how the Dutch language uses a separate word for sport cyclists, which literally translates to "wheeled athlete", to distinguish them from cyclists who are normal people using bikes for normal transport.
  3. Deal out some tough love for our world-leading obesity problem.
  4. Provide appropriate infrastructure so you can trundle along at 15-20 km/h in normal clothes (like Princess Mary does with her kids - in Australia she would be cooped up in a limo!) instead of kitting up in a helmet and lycra superhero outfit for a death defying sport cycle.
  5. Ween the motor industry off taxpayer subsidies - starting with charging rego by the kilogram - while still providing relief for people in regional areas where the tyranny of distance comes into play.
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

Actually my proposal would have 15,000 free parking spaces and it could really clear many streets of Parramatta for a better flow of traffic.
eddyb
Well, no. The streets would be choked up with people driving to and from the station. Do you even have any idea of what 15,000 cars looks like on the road?

You would be better off constructing a bunch of stations closer to where people live, so that more of them could be within Active Transport range of their local station instead of so far away they have to drive.
  eddyb Chief Train Controller

justapassenger


I agree totally with your thoughts on bikes but regarding cars the future in my opinion will be hydrogen or electric.


As you have suggested it is good to build high density close to stations and that is exactly what they are doing with the NWRL


Church street has been a mall for a number of years now and north/south traffic has to go around the CBD and I would think most cars would come off the M4 or Great western highway.


The expert I contacted said himself that a multiple use car park is the way to go so I never understood his objection.
  viaprojects Chief Train Controller


There are three big attitude changes we need to make here:
justapassenger


you need to count before you post.

  • Realise that wearing a suit and tie in hot weather is ridiculous and doesn't make you more productive than wearing a short sleeve shirt and lightweight trousers or even shorts.

  • pick a suit summer / winter or change at the work place. it's not a transport problem.

  • Dump our ridiculous mandatory helmet laws (the easiest step - it's just a stroke of a pen!) which have been the main cause of killing off cycling in Australia as a normal form of transport. Helmets would still of course be used for sport cycling - I like how the Dutch language uses a separate word for sport cyclists, which literally translates to "wheeled athlete", to distinguish them from cyclists who are normal people using bikes for normal transport.


  • http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-09-11/senate-nanny-state-inquiry-begins/6766740

  • Deal out some tough love for our world-leading obesity problem.

  • pass

  • Provide appropriate infrastructure so you can trundle along at 15-20 km/h in normal clothes (like Princess Mary does with her kids - in Australia she would be cooped up in a limo!) instead of kitting up in a helmet and lycra superhero outfit for a death defying sport cycle.


  • we have bike paths

  • Ween the motor industry off taxpayer subsidies - starting with charging rego by the kilogram - while still providing relief for people in regional areas where the tyranny of distance comes into play.


  • there have been some changes and afik NSW is a state that charges by weight

    and we have a parking space levy in Parramatta --> http://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/professional-drivers/parking-space-levy
      eddyb Chief Train Controller

    Everybody loves free buses and limited stop trains I think and I have been comparing North Wollongong and Helensburgh stations

    North Wollongong has very few parking spots but it has a free bus that collects people from everywhere.

    Helensburgh has about 50? free parking spots that are always overcrowded but it also collects passengers from the all stops trains i suspect.

    Not sure if providing a free bus with the parking levy would be more economical than free parking but i think it would be fairer on people who do not drive.

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