Federal rail cash under a cloud over South Yarra station

 
Topic moved from News by bevans on 23 Oct 2015 16:48
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
This makes me laugh. The rusted on car users of Higgins are now complaining they will not now get a shiny new railway station with the new Metro Rail Network additions which the Liberals canned and tried to divert to their property holdings at Fisherman Bend?

Federal rail cash under a cloud over South Yarra station

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  Bogong Chief Commissioner

Location: Essendon Aerodrome circa 1980
Bevans, I appreciate that you couldn't help yourself, so you help indulged in a spot of "4P" (Petty Partisan Political Point-scoring), but if you'd stopped to think, you would remember that the state seat of Prahran is held by the Green Party, NOT the Liberal party.

Prahran includes South Yarra and that state seat is the absolute heart of the federal seat of Higgins. The fact is that the Greens do well in almost all wealthy inner city areas that are largely free of unwashed riff-raff.

So while the stereotypical image of a Green voter is of an overpaid academic or fat-cat bureaucrat who lives in North Fitzroy, Green voters also live in affluent suburbs south of the river such as South Melbourne AND South Yarra.

For my sins, I know lots of people in that area and (just like the inner north where I live), quite a few of them do NOT own cars. To live in South Yarra (or the inner north), you have to be fairly well off, so all of the people I know there could easily afford a car if they wanted one. Not bothering to own a car doesn't appear to be related to voting patterns either. Some of the carless people I know vote Liberal, some of them vote Green and I'm fairly sure that one of them actually votes Labour Shocked (How very retro of her.)
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
@Bevans, I appreciate that you couldn't help yourself, so you help indulged in a spot of "4P" (Petty Partisan Political Point-scoring), but if you'd stopped to think, you would remember that the state seat of Prahran is held by the Green Party, NOT the Liberal party.

Prahran includes South Yarra and that state seat is the absolute heart of the federal seat of Higgins. The fact is that the Greens do well in almost all wealthy inner city areas that are largely free of unwashed riff-raff.
Bogong

I could not help myself.  The greens do of course hold the seat of Prahran.  However, the Fedral seat of Higgins is Liberal held for now being the seat of former treaurer Costello.  The seat is held by the ex staffer of Costello having been pre-selected for the seat above a scumbag called Andrew Abercombie. Abercrombie claimed to be such good friends with Costello. Well the best person got pre-selected. Thank god it was not him.

In all seriousness, the idea of an interchange at South Yarra does need to be reviewed.  I am not sure I understand the reason why it cannot be accommodated in the metro plans.   I have read the depth of the tunnels will be an issue but I have also read (on RP) the issue may be the cost of property acquisitions required to build out the station improvements.
  Bogong Chief Commissioner

Location: Essendon Aerodrome circa 1980

In all seriousness, the idea of an interchange at South Yarra does need to be reviewed.  I am not sure I understand the reason why it cannot be accommodated in the metro plans.   I have read the depth of the tunnels will be an issue but I have also read (on RP) the issue may be the cost of property acquisitions required to build out the station improvements.
bevans
Oh I totally agree with you on that. It's a vital interchange station and one of the most heavily used stations in Melbourne that my "South-of-the-River" friends use daily.

Labour is quoting a $1 billion dollar cost to put an underground station at South Yarra. This is clearly designed to shut people up as no single station could be so valuable to be worth the price. But the price quoted is so extreme, such a ludicrous exaggeration, it's clearly a fib as even the most over the top gold-platted station couldn't cost that much.

The most sensible place to put a station entrance on the proposed underground track alignment would be the vacant grassy area on the side of Osborne Street, about 80 metres south of Toorak Road. I reckon my mates earthmoving outfit could dig a shaft there wide enough for a couple of escalators down to the tunnel for a couple of million tops, well under 1% of the CrAzY price cited by Mr Andrews.
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
I think an underground station at South Yarra Is a must, though It may be a few hundred metres from South Yarra Station and may have a different name such as "Chapel"
  AzN_dj Chief Commissioner

Location: Along route 69
For platforms at South Yarra, the track needs to be absolutely straight in all three dimensions (no slopes, no curves). Try getting a straight line of 250 metres near the station entrance AND connect it to the existing line at this point without upsetting everything else. It would need to be underneath all rail lines, extending tracks to Jam Factory is not a massive exaggeration. And because it is also a portal, you need to knock down properties to get it back to the surface.
  Bogong Chief Commissioner

Location: Essendon Aerodrome circa 1980
... And because it is also a portal, you need to knock down properties to get it back to the surface.
AzN_dj
Not if you just have a simple small entrance to escalators with only room for card validators, like they have at many entrances to the London Tube. Some of them are only 5 x 5 metres.

Whack the small entrance cabin on the empty land beside Osborne St and it should be on the tunnel alignment anyway, with no need to worry about having a bend in the platform and no need to demolish buildings. Smile
  jdekorte Deputy Commissioner

Location: Near Caulfield Station
Some interesting thoughts on South Yarra from Daniel Bowen:

http://www.danielbowen.com/2015/10/23/south-yarra-conundrum/

I don't know whether Daniel is right or wrong, but he sums up the issues quite nicely. There is an amount of engineering involved. My understanding is that the whole area has to be altered anyway including part of the Jam Factory carpark, Chapel St Bridge, William St Bridge, the South Yarra Siding Park and the Osborne St Reserve. I guess we can say goodbye to the South Yarra Siding Park when this project is over - which I believe is still owned by the railways anyway given its former use as a depot.

I'm thinking that we might have to wait and see on this. Clearly an interchange will be difficult to build, but that's not to say an interchange can't be built at either Caulfield or Hawksburn. The Liberals are hoping to turn this into an issue, but as Daniel notes, the Liberal flawed plan of building the Metro through Fishermens Bend provided for an interchange at South Yarra but didn't say how it was going to be built. I know the area reasonably well, so my own thinking given what is known about the alignment of the Metro is that an interchange feasibly can't be done - not when the portal will be basically where the interchange is supposed to be. It would be like trying to build a platform on existing City Loop entry ramps.
  historian Deputy Commissioner

... And because it is also a portal, you need to knock down properties to get it back to the surface.
Not if you just have a simple small entrance to escalators with only room for card validators, like they have at many entrances to the London Tube. Some of them are only 5 x 5 metres.

Whack the small entrance cabin on the empty land beside Osborne St and it should be on the tunnel alignment anyway, with no need to worry about having a bend in the platform and no need to demolish buildings. Smile
Bogong

I'd like to see an Xtrapolis validating its ticket and travelling down the escalator. Sorry, I couldn't resist. AzN_dj is referring to the portals necessary to take the tracks underground.

It's not obvious where you'd put the portal and ramps, curve around to align with Toorak Rd, and have a dead straight double track platform that is close enough for passengers to easily interchange with the existing station. Particularly given the cost of land in South Yarra.

If you relax some of the conditions, it becomes easier. For example, move the platforms further west (but that eliminates intechange at South Yarra). Or forget about straight platforms...
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

Location: Banned

In all seriousness, the idea of an interchange at South Yarra does need to be reviewed.  I am not sure I understand the reason why it cannot be accommodated in the metro plans.   I have read the depth of the tunnels will be an issue but I have also read (on RP) the issue may be the cost of property acquisitions required to build out the station improvements.Oh I totally agree with you on that. It's a vital interchange station and one of the most heavily used stations in Melbourne that my "South-of-the-River" friends use daily.

Labour is quoting a $1 billion dollar cost to put an underground station at South Yarra. This is clearly designed to shut people up as no single station could be so valuable to be worth the price. But the price quoted is so extreme, such a ludicrous exaggeration, it's clearly a fib as even the most over the top gold-platted station couldn't cost that much.

The most sensible place to put a station entrance on the proposed underground track alignment would be the vacant grassy area on the side of Osborne Street, about 80 metres south of Toorak Road. I reckon my mates earthmoving outfit could dig a shaft there wide enough for a couple of escalators down to the tunnel for a couple of million tops, well under 1% of the CrAzY price cited by Mr Andrews.
Bogong
Yes $1 Billion seems rather excessive. Also I cannot believe the timescale. 11 Years to build 18 kms of tunnel and 5 stations when Crossrail are taking 9 years to build 42 km of tunnel and 10 new stations

Michael
  NSWGR8022 Chief Commissioner

Location: From the lands of Journalism and Free Speech
Yes $1 Billion seems rather excessive. Also I cannot believe the timescale. 11 Years to build 18 kms of tunnel and 5 stations when Crossrail are taking 9 years to build 42 km of tunnel and 10 new stations

Michael
mejhammers1

The timeline also has been querying the entire project to be honest.  How can these timelines be so long in Melbourne when overseas there are similar projects which take half the time or appear to take a lot less time.  11 years is a very long time.
  TOQ-1 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Power Trainger
Not underestimating the technicalities of geotechnical and engineering works, I feel like the state government chose to drag out the early stages of the metro in the hope of a change in federal government that would lead to more federal funding.

I think the argument for an interchange platform at South Yarra is a little flawed when it will allow Frankston trains to go back into the loop at a frequency of about one every three minutes. Sandringham trains will also be able to cross the viaduct to Southern Cross at a higher frequency (still limited by turn arounds at Sandringham, I believe) when it joins the cross-city group, so there will be the same amount of trains or more overall through South Yarra.
  AzN_dj Chief Commissioner

Location: Along route 69
Also would like to point out that after trying to dig a tunnel near the Yarra in the past, they have learnt a few things.
First, any soil dug up will bring Sulphuric acid with it. A bit hard to just dump it in a park and leave it.
Second, there isn't much that is stable in the soil. It is a weak soil and will require the tunnel to be floated. Another cost incurred.

The construction timeline includes the feasibility studies and developing a business case. If you are comparing to Cross City Rail, you are more likely comparing the construction phase only. The planning does take some time and you want to make sure with something as big as a tunnel, you do as much planning as you can before you start!
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
You make some interesting points regarding the floating of the tunnels. I understand from a geotechnical guy I speak with at my local club the city link tunnels have been built this way and are expected to begin having serious problems at around 45 years old. My friend went on to say this was well known and construction was not undertaken in the same way European engineering resources would have completed the job.
  tom9876543 Chief Train Controller

I am not sure why people say it is difficult to build an underground station at South Yarra.
On Google maps, draw a straight line from the train tracks north of Davison Pl (near Chapel St) to 123 Osborne St.
It is 325m long perfectly straight. Construction access is simple via the park land between the Sandringham Line and Dandenong Line.
Entrances can be built at Osborne St, William St, Arthur St (as close as possible to Chapel St). Of course there would also be a link to the existing station.
There is a distance of about 600m from Hawksburn Station to Chapel St. At 1/32 (existing grade is about 1/60), the underground station would be around 9m below the existing rail line where the proposed station is. The bridge over Surrey Rd would need to be closed, Toorak residents will get over it.

There seems to be a large number of incompetent people who can't see obvious solutions.
  AzN_dj Chief Commissioner

Location: Along route 69
There is a distance of about 600m from Hawksburn Station to Chapel St. At 1/32 (existing grade is about 1/60), the underground station would be around 9m below the existing rail line where the proposed station is.
tom9876543
I believe that the minimum gradient is 1:50 for suburban trains so 1 in 32 is too steep.
Also it needs to be in a meaningful location. Having one edge of the station touch South Yarra isn't a very good outcome.

My friend went on to say this was well known and construction was not undertaken in the same way European engineering resources would have completed the job.
Somebody
Mind you we don't normally build tunnels either so we have to ship in resources, expertise, etc. Also soil conditions are very different around the world, even though general principles are similar. We are mainly digging through sand, which well, okay it could be worse. The Chunnel was chalk which was brilliant. Hard rock is what you should aim for though, which we don't have here. But be glad that we aren't drilling through sandy-clay (now THAT would be a nightmare!)

Burnley was designed as a drained tunnel (as in groundwater could seep in, but then go out the bottom), but after beginning construction, they quickly realised that it would not work (too high water volume). It wasn't something you could have predicted sooner from what I can tell, and it was well and truly into suburban Burnley where there were issues (not around the Yarra River). Hence, they had to rush the change in design and make it a watertight tunnel. Now that we know that, we would build the tunnel as a sealed watertight tunnel in the first place.

The problem with geo work is that there is a lot of potential error because we don't know the soil conditions at every single point. Yes, we do drilling tests to get an approximate view, but when you move in three dimensions in what has been formed through various earth movements in seemingly random directions, it doesn't always pan out that way. It helps, but it doesn't guarantee that you won't have issues when tunnelling. E.g. Lane Cove, even the mistake with the Burnley tunnel.


The bridge over Surrey Rd would need to be closed, Toorak residents will get over it.
tom

How?
  woodford Chief Commissioner


In all seriousness, the idea of an interchange at South Yarra does need to be reviewed.  I am not sure I understand the reason why it cannot be accommodated in the metro plans.   I have read the depth of the tunnels will be an issue but I have also read (on RP) the issue may be the cost of property acquisitions required to build out the station improvements.Oh I totally agree with you on that. It's a vital interchange station and one of the most heavily used stations in Melbourne that my "South-of-the-River" friends use daily.

Labour is quoting a $1 billion dollar cost to put an underground station at South Yarra. This is clearly designed to shut people up as no single station could be so valuable to be worth the price. But the price quoted is so extreme, such a ludicrous exaggeration, it's clearly a fib as even the most over the top gold-platted station couldn't cost that much.

The most sensible place to put a station entrance on the proposed underground track alignment would be the vacant grassy area on the side of Osborne Street, about 80 metres south of Toorak Road. I reckon my mates earthmoving outfit could dig a shaft there wide enough for a couple of escalators down to the tunnel for a couple of million tops, well under 1% of the CrAzY price cited by Mr Andrews.Yes $1 Billion seems rather excessive. Also I cannot believe the timescale. 11 Years to build 18 kms of tunnel and 5 stations when Crossrail are taking 9 years to build 42 km of tunnel and 10 new stations

Michael
mejhammers1

You cannot really compare Greater Melbourne with Greater London. London has double the population of Melbourne in a ____SIXTH_____ of the area, so London has far more resources to use. As its population is so dense good public transport is widely recognised as essential.

woodford
  woodford Chief Commissioner

Another bit of woodford drivel..................

A point probably worth remembering here is that neither the state or the federal governments are strong enough to ignore public opinion. The Vic state liberals tried that and lost government in only one term.

The point of this is they will not be able to bulldoze much of South Yarra (or any where else for that matter) without risking a major backlash, this is possible one of the driving forces for deep tunnels as there will be far less disruption in the whole project.

woodford
  wobert Chief Commissioner

Location: Half way between Propodolla and Kinimakatka
Pity they can't bulldoze all of South Yarra .
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

Location: Banned

In all seriousness, the idea of an interchange at South Yarra does need to be reviewed.  I am not sure I understand the reason why it cannot be accommodated in the metro plans.   I have read the depth of the tunnels will be an issue but I have also read (on RP) the issue may be the cost of property acquisitions required to build out the station improvements.Oh I totally agree with you on that. It's a vital interchange station and one of the most heavily used stations in Melbourne that my "South-of-the-River" friends use daily.

Labour is quoting a $1 billion dollar cost to put an underground station at South Yarra. This is clearly designed to shut people up as no single station could be so valuable to be worth the price. But the price quoted is so extreme, such a ludicrous exaggeration, it's clearly a fib as even the most over the top gold-platted station couldn't cost that much.

The most sensible place to put a station entrance on the proposed underground track alignment would be the vacant grassy area on the side of Osborne Street, about 80 metres south of Toorak Road. I reckon my mates earthmoving outfit could dig a shaft there wide enough for a couple of escalators down to the tunnel for a couple of million tops, well under 1% of the CrAzY price cited by Mr Andrews.Yes $1 Billion seems rather excessive. Also I cannot believe the timescale. 11 Years to build 18 kms of tunnel and 5 stations when Crossrail are taking 9 years to build 42 km of tunnel and 10 new stations

Michael
You cannot really compare Greater Melbourne with Greater London. London has double the population of Melbourne in a ____SIXTH_____ of the area, so London has far more resources to use. As its population is so dense good public transport is widely recognised as essential.


woodford
woodford
Sorry Woodford but I still don't agree. Aside that London has double the population and is more dense. The Melbourne Metro Rail project would not come to 40% of Crossrail's scale, so to my mind it still does not answer the question as to why 11 years!!! Also all I said was the following.

Yes $1 Billion seems rather excessive. Also I cannot believe the timescale. 11 Years to build 18 kms of tunnel and 5 stations when Crossrail are taking 9 years to build 42 km of tunnel and 10 new stations.

Michael
  LancedDendrite Chief Commissioner

Location: Gheringhap Loop Autonomous Zone
Go look at the documents released under FOI:
http://www.samhibbins.com/south_yarra_station_foi_documents
  Toby Esterhase Station Master

When you read the articles carefully, it's quite clear that the feds aren't having a bar of the idea that they should be shelling out an additional $0.5-1B for a nice-to-have-but-not-must-have set of underground platforms at South Yarra - much less that (as a matter of principle) they should be sticking their nose into the planning, as opposed to funding, of the project. (People smeg and moan about the States, but can you imagine how much worse public services generally - let alone public transport - would be if they were run entirely out of Canberra?) The whole thing sounds like a try-on by Matthew Guy to try and bounce the feds into that position and thus salvage some credit for the state Liberals after they cocked up public transport so badly it lost them the last election (having used it to secure a surprise win in the previous election). My bet is that Turnbull will hang him out to dry - there's nothing for Turnbull to gain in being seen to be playing silly buggers with this project, and no reason why he'd want to cough up more than he has to.
  tom9876543 Chief Train Controller

There is a distance of about 600m from Hawksburn Station to Chapel St. At 1/32 (existing grade is about 1/60), the underground station would be around 9m below the existing rail line where the proposed station is.
I believe that the minimum gradient is 1:50 for suburban trains so 1 in 32 is too steep.
Also it needs to be in a meaningful location. Having one edge of the station touch South Yarra isn't a very good outcome.

The bridge over Surrey Rd would need to be closed, Toorak residents will get over it.
How?
AzN_dj
You are incorrect, the maximum gradient for suburban trains is 1/30 compensated. The Belgrave line has significant length of track at 1/30 (p.s. you got minimum/maximum mixed up).
I have got no idea what you are talking about in regards to "meaningful location". "One edge of the station touch South Yarra".... what are you talking about????
Regarding Surrey Rd bridge, I was being sarcastic. The road under rail bridge would be closed, Toorak residents will need to drive a bit further.

I think there is no reason my proposal would cost $500 million. If there is an agreement to shut down Dandenong and Sandringham lines for 3 months (a big ask I know), I am sure the underground station could be built relatively cheaply. If South Yarra station is closed, developers could rebuild South Yarra station, putting commercial / residential above it, and also build something on the south side of Toorak Rd. The developers would help cover the cost of the underground station.
  woodford Chief Commissioner

Sorry Woodford but I still don't agree. Aside that London has double the population and is more dense. The Melbourne Metro Rail project would not come to 40% of Crossrail's scale, so to my mind it still does not answer the question as to why 11 years!!! Also all I said was the following.

Yes $1 Billion seems rather excessive. Also I cannot believe the timescale. 11 Years to build 18 kms of tunnel and 5 stations when Crossrail are taking 9 years to build 42 km of tunnel and 10 new stations.

Michael
mejhammers1

You are expressing an opinion, you are welcome to disagree with me. I am expressing a point that needs consideration.

Another thing is I do not believe at this time we have enough information to make any kind meanfull comparison (Note 1). As yet there is no details of the tunnels that will be bored, will they be multiple single track tunnels as Crossrail appears to be using or larger multi track tunnels.  

Note 1: A point for consideration here is the local media have a very nasty reputation of not being very accurate for these sort of things and one must use extreme caution in setting up _____ANY______ kind of firing squad based on the info from these journalists.

woodford
  Heihachi_73 Chief Commissioner

Location: Terminating at Ringwood
Pity they can't bulldoze all of South Yarra .
"wobert"


And everything between Jolimont and Clifton Hill. Laughing

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