100kph subways v 250kph subways

 
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
A train cannot accelerate above 1ms-2 or people will be thrown out of their rear facing seats or those standing to back of the train.

Its 25km from CBD to CBD, 160km/hr trains will do the job in 15-18min with 2-3 stop along the way, surely this is sufficient.
I had been thinking of a 250kph stand alone express with all seated and with the seats that change direction like our DD

If the limited stop express can do it in 25 minutes especially after the metro allows more DD near Redfern maybe people would just catch that.

Perhaps if the connection was only 7 minutes it would reverse yesterdays trend where business is going east taking good jobs with them.
eddyb
Assume
Central - Redfern - Straithfield - Paramatta
To speed 160km/hr between Redfern and Paramatta
- 30sec dwell time
- 4min Central to Redfern
- braking and acceleration is 1ms-1

I get 12-13min, so lets make it 15min. Current best for same pattern is 26min.

I picked 160 as the current rolling stock with a more powerfull traction should be able to do this.
- 250km/hr saves another 2-3min and would cost probably twice as much and use specialised rolling stock and signalling.
- 130km/hr max is still under 15min.

I wouldn't bore a tunnel for this as its usage for the cost would see the tunnel underuterlised. I would
- Bore a tunnel for inner west Metro. Metro is non-compatible technology so keep it separate and the Inner West Metyro would be the starter for the inner NW Metro.
- Triple track from Homebush to Lidcombe (these two solve another issue at same time)
- Improve Interurban line to 160km/hr alignment and High speed points.
- SW trains would use both route via Reagents Park (again) and Gladsville)

By rating the line
- 140-160km/hr the XPT and XPL can still use it and not get in the way.
- Interurban trains would be able to also use it as most of this rolling stock is probably rated to 130km/hr anyway or could be and certainly new stock.
- The high speed track would continue to Blacktown for the benefit of Blue Mountains and Western Suburbs commuters and future airport
- My Airport loop train would be the western express

Overall it would probably be a $5-6 exercise including the inner West Metro and triple track to Lidcombe.

So for the price you get a 15min CBD to CBD service and significantly increased capacity and track efficiency.

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  eddyb Chief Train Controller

RTT_Rules


I suppose we have different ways of looking at demand in the future.


In 50 years I see Parramatta as being the CBD of Sydney with 250kph trains not only connecting Sydney suburbs but Lithgow, Wollongong, Gosford as well as the north and south fast rail to the NSW borders and that is why I suggest a stand alone CBD to CBD 250kph subway now with 10km stubs from Parramatta to connect the north and south fastrail to as it becomes economical to do so.


It would provide a 15 minute trip across town and would have sufficient patronage to make it economical in the future but there needs to be a subway station decided upon now before we paint ourselves into a corner like east Sydney CBD.


But time will tell and it is a bit like global warming, what if we sit on our hands and it turns out we are the problem it would be too late.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

A train cannot accelerate above 1ms-2 or people will be thrown out of their rear facing seats or those standing to back of the train.

Its 25km from CBD to CBD, 160km/hr trains will do the job in 15-18min with 2-3 stop along the way, surely this is sufficient.
I had been thinking of a 250kph stand alone express with all seated and with the seats that change direction like our DD

If the limited stop express can do it in 25 minutes especially after the metro allows more DD near Redfern maybe people would just catch that.

Perhaps if the connection was only 7 minutes it would reverse yesterdays trend where business is going east taking good jobs with them.
Assume
Central - Redfern - Straithfield - Paramatta
To speed 160km/hr between Redfern and Paramatta
- 30sec dwell time
- 4min Central to Redfern
- braking and acceleration is 1ms-1

I get 12-13min, so lets make it 15min. Current best for same pattern is 26min.

I picked 160 as the current rolling stock with a more powerfull traction should be able to do this.
- 250km/hr saves another 2-3min and would cost probably twice as much and use specialised rolling stock and signalling.
- 130km/hr max is still under 15min.

I wouldn't bore a tunnel for this as its usage for the cost would see the tunnel underuterlised. I would
- Bore a tunnel for inner west Metro. Metro is non-compatible technology so keep it separate and the Inner West Metyro would be the starter for the inner NW Metro.
- Triple track from Homebush to Lidcombe (these two solve another issue at same time)
- Improve Interurban line to 160km/hr alignment and High speed points.
- SW trains would use both route via Reagents Park (again) and Gladsville)

By rating the line
- 140-160km/hr the XPT and XPL can still use it and not get in the way.
- Interurban trains would be able to also use it as most of this rolling stock is probably rated to 130km/hr anyway or could be and certainly new stock.
- The high speed track would continue to Blacktown for the benefit of Blue Mountains and Western Suburbs commuters and future airport
- My Airport loop train would be the western express

Overall it would probably be a $5-6 exercise including the inner West Metro and triple track to Lidcombe.

So for the price you get a 15min CBD to CBD service and significantly increased capacity and track efficiency.
RTT_Rules
With your inner west metro plan RTT_Rules. Are you talking about replacing the current inner west (the locals) with an underground service freeing up the above ground portion to run free for main south services?

250km/h is pointless over such a short distance because the trains could never achieve those speeds in the first place. Better to leave that technology for any hst project to Canberra, Melbourne, Wollongong or Newcastle. There will never be a hsr to lithgow and bathurst due to the big national park sitting smack in the middle of it and the environment issues it creates. Lithgow will have to hope for a tilt train and line straightening along the existing corridor.

Sextuplifying to Lidcombe to seperate the Regents park line from the western line would be a brilliant idea and open up this line to more usage after the metro goes to Bankstown. With some upgraded signaling and increased capacity due to the extra track. Via Granville services could go across the bridge instead of around the circle with the regents park service becoming more frequent and provide a semi fast service in place of the Granville service.
  eddyb Chief Train Controller

simstrainThere will never be a hsr to lithgow and bathurst due to the big national park sitting smack in the middle of it and the environment issues it creates
Dunno about that as this 250 kph subway is due to a national park above it.http://tunneltalk.com/Norway-04Mar2015-TBM-tunnel-contract-award-for-Oslo-Ski-Follo-Railway-Line.php

Actually it was when I drove a truck every day across the blue mountains past 11 schools bumper to bumper I originally thought of a road tunnel then better a subway with cars left at Lithgow then heck why not connect everything with hub and spoke subways so people do not face a two hour trip across the city.

I believe with automated tunneling and increased demand it will be economically viable in the future.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Dunno about that as this 250 kph subway is due to a national park above it.http://tunneltalk.com/Norway-04Mar2015-TBM-tunnel-contract-award-for-Oslo-Ski-Follo-Railway-Line.php

Actually it was when I drove a truck every day across the blue mountains past 11 schools bumper to bumper I originally thought of a road tunnel then better a subway with cars left at Lithgow then heck why not connect everything with hub and spoke subways so people do not face a two hour trip across the city.

I believe with automated tunneling and increased demand it will be economically viable in the future.
eddyb

How about stopping trucks coming across the mountains all together and move all freight by train instead. There aren't the numbers for a hsr to Lithgow or even Bathurst. Get a new hybrid diesel tilt train to replace the xpt to dubbo and xplorer to broken hill.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
With your inner west metro plan RTT_Rules. Are you talking about replacing the current inner west (the locals) with an underground service freeing up the above ground portion to run free for main south services?

250km/h is pointless over such a short distance because the trains could never achieve those speeds in the first place. Better to leave that technology for any hst project to Canberra, Melbourne, Wollongong or Newcastle. There will never be a hsr to lithgow and bathurst due to the big national park sitting smack in the middle of it and the environment issues it creates. Lithgow will have to hope for a tilt train and line straightening along the existing corridor.

Sextuplifying to Lidcombe to seperate the Regents park line from the western line would be a brilliant idea and open up this line to more usage after the metro goes to Bankstown. With some upgraded signaling and increased capacity due to the extra track. Via Granville services could go across the bridge instead of around the circle with the regents park service becoming more frequent and provide a semi fast service in place of the Granville service.
simstrain
Yes, extend to Ashfield and then later Straithfield and/or Olympic Park.

6 tracks then to Lidcombe, SW trains then spilt between Reagents Park and Granville with only the min required via Grandville.

HSR, I don't see this being viable for 50 years and we will leave this to the large number of other threads why not.

You can mix freight and pax upt to about 200km/hr, then beyond that the signally systems are far more complex as is track and rail technology. The costs also starting pointing north. Hence I am focusing on 160km/hr especially when station spacing makes higher speeds impossible.

SO my grand plan is 160-200km/hr technology being a new network built ontop of the current interurban lines and include faster trains to Paramatta and future BC airport. They would continue to Taree, Duboo, Tamworth, Canberra and Wagga with substantial improvements to the SOuth Coast. All three train services would get a boost.

Freight services in the inner city and interurban lines would continue to be pushed onto their own networks where traffic justifies.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

With your inner west metro plan RTT_Rules. Are you talking about replacing the current inner west (the locals) with an underground service freeing up the above ground portion to run free for main south services?

250km/h is pointless over such a short distance because the trains could never achieve those speeds in the first place. Better to leave that technology for any hst project to Canberra, Melbourne, Wollongong or Newcastle. There will never be a hsr to lithgow and bathurst due to the big national park sitting smack in the middle of it and the environment issues it creates. Lithgow will have to hope for a tilt train and line straightening along the existing corridor.

Sextuplifying to Lidcombe to seperate the Regents park line from the western line would be a brilliant idea and open up this line to more usage after the metro goes to Bankstown. With some upgraded signaling and increased capacity due to the extra track. Via Granville services could go across the bridge instead of around the circle with the regents park service becoming more frequent and provide a semi fast service in place of the Granville service.
Yes, extend to Ashfield and then later Straithfield and/or Olympic Park.

6 tracks then to Lidcombe, SW trains then spilt between Reagents Park and Granville with only the min required via Grandville.

HSR, I don't see this being viable for 50 years and we will leave this to the large number of other threads why not.

You can mix freight and pax upt to about 200km/hr, then beyond that the signally systems are far more complex as is track and rail technology. The costs also starting pointing north. Hence I am focusing on 160km/hr especially when station spacing makes higher speeds impossible.

SO my grand plan is 160-200km/hr technology being a new network built ontop of the current interurban lines and include faster trains to Paramatta and future BC airport. They would continue to Taree, Duboo, Tamworth, Canberra and Wagga with substantial improvements to the SOuth Coast. All three train services would get a boost.

Freight services in the inner city and interurban lines would continue to be pushed onto their own networks where traffic justifies.
RTT_Rules
You can forget 160-200km/h on the Sydney system as that will never happen. The new metro however could possibly hit 160km/h being that it is computer controlled and a separate line.

Reducing services along the Granville route is not advisable because the Granville line has the population base and patronage needed for it's services. Extending the metro to Liverpool will mean that the Granville services won't be at crush capacity but will still be full. What removing the Bankstown line from the Sydney trains system will do is allow the re introduction of at least 1 regents park service an hour in each direction. Adding an extra track for intercity services between Strathfield and Granville would be good but my plan would be to take the intercity service via a new tunnel to Olympic park station, Rosehill, Parramatta and popping up at Blacktown.
  eddyb Chief Train Controller

How about stopping trucks coming across the mountains all together and move all freight by train instead. There aren't the numbers for a hsr to Lithgow or even Bathurst. Get a new hybrid diesel tilt train to replace the xpt to dubbo and xplorer to broken hill.
simstrain
Yeah right, as if the people west of the mountains would pay three times the freight as it would have to be picked up by truck from the factory loaded onto a train unloaded and reloaded onto trucks west of the mountains and then get delivered a week later if it was not broken by then

With land west of the range half the cost of Sydney people could live out there and pay $10 each way on a 250kph subway
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
You can forget 160-200km/h on the Sydney system as that will never happen. The new metro however could possibly hit 160km/h being that it is computer controlled and a separate line.

Reducing services along the Granville route is not advisable because the Granville line has the population base and patronage needed for it's services. Extending the metro to Liverpool will mean that the Granville services won't be at crush capacity but will still be full. What removing the Bankstown line from the Sydney trains system will do is allow the re introduction of at least 1 regents park service an hour in each direction. Adding an extra track for intercity services between Strathfield and Granville would be good but my plan would be to take the intercity service via a new tunnel to Olympic park station, Rosehill, Parramatta and popping up at Blacktown.
simstrain
The question why  "forget 160-200km/h on the Sydney system"?

Building a tunnel cost 2 - 10 x the price than upgrading the surface network on the routes I mentioned depending on the location and works combined. 25km to Paramatta would cost in the order of $12-15B and I doubt it would move more than 10,000-12,000/hr and hence be under uterlised for the price.

The HSR tunnel to to Paramatta will be very costly to get the speed up as it needs a wider bore and very straight plus additional safety features to handle 250km/hr. Most European HSR lines drop to 160km/hr for tunnels.

My thinking of the surface upgrade it to identify a pair of tracks on Western line through to Blacktown and ideally longer term to EMU Plains and where possible adjust the alignment and track standard for up to 160km/hr rating. Likewise the Nth Main. I know you won't even get + 120 in many areas without serious deviations, this is not a Gold Plated option. The Western Main is however relatively straight'ish with deviations around infrastructure such as stations and points. Building the Metro tunnel removes about 6-8 surface stations and the track curvature forced on Interurban lines despite not even having platforms.

With or withuout HSR tunnel, there still needs to be something done about the quad to Lidcombe and mixing all stoppers with SW trains on inner west has reduced the track capacity to 60%. I also think the Metro would be a good option to in future extend north of Ashfield.

With reference to the number of trains via Granville, I said/meant minimum required for the task, not because that's the only route available as per now.
  eddyb Chief Train Controller

RTT_Rules
Shane mate, sorry to butt into your debate but CBD to Parramatta would at the most cost $3b as this http://tunneltalk.com/Norway-04Mar2015-TBM-tunnel-contract-award-for-Oslo-Ski-Follo-Railway-Line.php only cost US $1.2b especially if they had no stops and cavern stations.

I think a $6 fare either way would make it pay and the patronage would always increase

To get all the good jobs out west it needs a 7 minute connection or they will always be regarded as factory fodder by the big end of town.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
RTT_Rules
Shane mate, sorry to butt into your debate but CBD to Parramatta would at the most cost $3b as this http://tunneltalk.com/Norway-04Mar2015-TBM-tunnel-contract-award-for-Oslo-Ski-Follo-Railway-Line.php only cost US $1.2b especially if they had no stops and cavern stations.

I think a $6 fare either way would make it pay and the patronage would always increase

To get all the good jobs out west it needs a 7 minute connection or they will always be regarded as factory fodder by the big end of town.
eddyb

Hi,
I used the costs of the current projects in Sydney both Metro NW and Metro City as well as the previous ECRL tunnel for a guide. I don't know why there is such a large difference, but its the same people, same rock, same country. The NWRL has about 15km of tunnels the stations are a few hundred million each plus trains and new depo.

Why do we need to get from Central to Paramatta in 7min, its actually impossible to do less than 10min when you factor in braking and acceleration at 1m/s and you cannot avoid stopping at Straithfield?

Note it will be physically impossible to do in less than 10min.

Additionally at 11min it takes longer to get from Central to Nth Sydney, I agree we should be improving the western corridor to move the large number of commuters faster on the outdated infrastructure and improve the connections between Paramatta and CBD, but why so fast when 160km/hr will do it in 15min? Chatswood is over 30min with 9min lost through the bends or what ever. Hornsby is nearly 50min.
  eddyb Chief Train Controller

RTT_Rules
NSW is the cover your backside capital of the world and legal people charge a fortune.

When I read through the EIS for the power cable under Sydney they had to
Check on existing air and water quality for a fair distance to see if it changed.
How many cars use the street and at what times.
Are all the residents in the world happy.
What time they have their cup of tea and how many sugars and is that black or white etc etc.

Now I realise that a bit of thought has to be put into a project but they really did go over the top in my opinion.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

RTT_Rules
Shane mate, sorry to butt into your debate but CBD to Parramatta would at the most cost $3b as this http://tunneltalk.com/Norway-04Mar2015-TBM-tunnel-contract-award-for-Oslo-Ski-Follo-Railway-Line.php only cost US $1.2b especially if they had no stops and cavern stations.

I think a $6 fare either way would make it pay and the patronage would always increase

To get all the good jobs out west it needs a 7 minute connection or they will always be regarded as factory fodder by the big end of town.
eddyb

Why does Parramatta need a faster service. A 26 minute service already exists and increasing frequency is more important to allow more 26 minute services to operate. The Sydney system isn't out of date it is the fact that too many lines share parts of the network with each other and thus reduces the frequency the system could be capable of.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

RTT_Rules
NSW is the cover your backside capital of the world and legal people charge a fortune.

When I read through the EIS for the power cable under Sydney they had to
Check on existing air and water quality for a fair distance to see if it changed.
How many cars use the street and at what times.
Are all the residents in the world happy.
What time they have their cup of tea and how many sugars and is that black or white etc etc.

Now I realise that a bit of thought has to be put into a project but they really did go over the top in my opinion.
eddyb

In addition to cover your backside capital it is also the home of the Nimby and the don't upset me culture. All this complaining about the building of a new light rail system through Sydney is the highlight of this phenomenon.

Sydney is also the capital of short sightedness. The destruction of the old tram system, 2 lane motorways and the destruction of a train system in Newcastle when you want to bring more people into the city are such examples.
  eddyb Chief Train Controller

simstrain
You may be right that Parramatta does not need a 7 minute connection and Shane agrees with you but my thinking is it would make Parramatta next door to the CBD and keep the few jobs they have out there http://m.dailytelegraph.com.au/newslocal/parramatta/commonwealth-bank-walks-away-from-parramatta-moving-thousands-of-jobs-to-australian-technology-park-near-redfern/story-fngr8huy-1227607465818
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

simstrain
You may be right that Parramatta does not need a 7 minute connection and Shane agrees with you but my thinking is it would make Parramatta next door to the CBD and keep the few jobs they have out there http://m.dailytelegraph.com.au/newslocal/parramatta/commonwealth-bank-walks-away-from-parramatta-moving-thousands-of-jobs-to-australian-technology-park-near-redfern/story-fngr8huy-1227607465818
eddyb
The commonwealth bank didn't pull away from Parramatta. They have pulled away from Olympic Park. Olympic Park maybe good for sporting facilities but it is out of the way for financial institutions which really need to be in the CBD.

In any case the western suburbs are growing and with several significant hospitals, large projects and Badgery's creek will have many jobs in the future.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Chatswood,
- I believe most people would agree a large business district of its own, probably equal to Adelaide or Perth.
- 10km from the city, 25min by train.
- There are no express services on the lower half of the Nth Shore line.
- The Metro will probably pull out 5-10min.

Paramatta,
- 23km from the city, 25min by express


Ignoring the Metro, who is being disadvantaged?

I agree we need to speed up trains to the west and ultimately the north and SW corridors as well.
Process to do so I believe is rebuild the surface alignment of the interurban track corridor to something fitting of the 2020's as well as other to help streamline other services and separate shorter distance all stoppers from longer haul services.

A 23km tunnel will cost far more than $3B, compare with NWRL, Brisbane CRR, Melbourne Metro and Sydney Metro costs, especially if its a HSR tunnel that even the EU's operators rarely build to this standard.

You cannot justify spending these billions to reduce a trip from 15min to 7min with a top speed of 250 km/hr which I've previously stated is physically impossible without strapping people in with 5 point seat belts and using rockets. The Shanghi Maglev does 30km in just over 7 1/3 min but does this but ramming up to 430km/hr. It takes 2min to get to 350km/hr.

It would also be madness to have any train not stop at Straithfield and it should also stop at Westmead.

My suggestion of using mostly conventional rolling stock with a higher speed rating of 160km/hr enables trains running through the city to pick up from the city stations, thus saving 5min transfer at Central which makes the huge costs for a 7 to 15min less practical. As I stated before my grand plan is to have the trains using this route be part of the Airport to Airport loop line via Syd and Paramatta and East Hills. Dedicated stock, more suitable for airport and fast CBD connections and the line would also be used by interurban and country traffic. All capable of achieving the higher line speeds.  

I'm still not sure how even a 7min trip will move jobs west. Businesses pay huge rents to be in the Sydney CBD and they do that for a reason, a teleporter to Paramatta won't change this.
  eddyb Chief Train Controller

The NWRL tunnel contract cost au $1.15b and included the stations and admittedly they would have to cut twice the material and use twice the segments but that would not make it any more than $3b with only a cavern station below Central station and Parramatta.


I see the importance of an intermediate station but it would limit the speed to 160kph and to me the only way to get CBD jobs to Parramatta is to make it next door.


A plane gets to 250kph in 30 seconds and I suspect the same time to stop so if you add one minute to the travel time at 250kph it adds up to about 7 minutes and I worked it out at about $6 each way.


Obviously many people do not see the need but that is the way I see it.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

RTT there is no room for a surface realignment along certain parts of the western corridor. There is only 1 option and that is to tunnel. A tunnel can be built and still provide for a stop at Strathfield.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

There is no need for CBD jobs in Parramatta Eddy. Parramatta is big enough to have it's own jobs.
  eddyb Chief Train Controller

simstrain


Maybe you are right I dunno


Are you suggesting a conventional metro as a stand alone privately owned and operated Central, Strathfield, Parramatta or part of the CBD metro with a branch off at Central.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Hi Eddy,

Just rechecked my calcs and yes its possible with a stop only at Straithfield to do it in just under 8min assuming no slowing for points or yard out of Central

The NWRL costs $6B and only the cost of convesrion of the ECRL and a 4 stations can be removed so lets say $5B.

While the actual boring is cheap about 1/4 of the cost, there is still alot to be spent on fit out and as you notice it takes nearly another 2 years.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
RTT there is no room for a surface realignment along certain parts of the western corridor. There is only 1 option and that is to tunnel. A tunnel can be built and still provide for a stop at Strathfield.
simstrain

Redfern to Straithfield - 10.5km average speed for an express is 70km/hr
Straithfield to Paramatta - 11.4km, 57km/hr
Paramatta to Blacktown - 11.7km, 70km/hr

The overall alignment is mostly fine, its the legacy of expansion, slewed tracks to avoid stations etc etc. I'm sure with some cash things could be done and starting with sending the inner west underground.

Redfern to Central Terminal, 4min for 1.3km is a dogs breakfast in cross overs with trains crossing paths, surely this isn't the only way to design these things. Maybe grade separation for arriving and departing tracks?
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

RTT there is no room for a surface realignment along certain parts of the western corridor. There is only 1 option and that is to tunnel. A tunnel can be built and still provide for a stop at Strathfield.

Redfern to Straithfield - 10.5km average speed for an express is 70km/hr
Straithfield to Paramatta - 11.4km, 57km/hr
Paramatta to Blacktown - 11.7km, 70km/hr

The overall alignment is mostly fine, its the legacy of expansion, slewed tracks to avoid stations etc etc. I'm sure with some cash things could be done and starting with sending the inner west underground.

Redfern to Central Terminal, 4min for 1.3km is a dogs breakfast in cross overs with trains crossing paths, surely this isn't the only way to design these things. Maybe grade separation for arriving and departing tracks?
RTT_Rules
The inner west ends at homebush. The problem is with the main south sharing with western and richmond line trains past homebush. With the main south trains stopping at flemington, why would you move the main south underground. Why not put the intercity or western line trains underground instead.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

simstrain


Maybe you are right I dunno


Are you suggesting a conventional metro as a stand alone privately owned and operated Central, Strathfield, Parramatta or part of the CBD metro with a branch off at Central.
eddyb

No. I'm suggesting to seperate the intercity trains on the western line from Strathfield to at least Granville and possibly on a new route via Olympic park and Rosehill racecourse to Parramatta and Blacktown on a new alignment.

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