Land deals sealed for $200bn high-speed east-coast rail link

 
Topic moved from News by bevans on 14 Jul 2016 09:31
  wobert Chief Commissioner

Location: Half way between Propodolla and Kinimakatka
For a bloke like me, The Rock looks strangely attractive. My better half would probably pay my fare. As I sit here drinking my tenth can .As I prepare to reminisce with my fellow Stalinist travelers, Bing and Bogong, that'll wind someone up.

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  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Richmond Vic
Apart from buying up a healthy slice of land in two States, what's in it for this Consolidated Land and Rail Australia outfit? I'm a cynic - I smell flowers and immediately look for the funeral.
New rural cities which will be economic centres has to be nonsense.
Buying rural land cheap, and selling it as residential is a great idea if you can get away with it. What happens next? . . . "sorry; further studies show that the railway just isn't feasible."?
If it sounds too good to be true, it probably isn't true.
  Lockspike Chief Commissioner

the bane of a new rail line.

Melb Southern Cross - Sydney Central Station, say 3hrs 30min from start to end.

But we want a stop at the Sydney Airport

But we want a stop at Liverpool

But we want a stop at Goluburn

But we want a stop at Canberra

But we want a stop at Wagga Wagga

But we want a stop at Albury

But we want a stop at Seymour

But we want a stop at Melbourne Airport


So now the train takes  hours.........

So a route not through ANY town is good.  Trains could branch off to be stoppers using the existing lines.

Same effect Melb-Bendigo with all the station on that line wanting a stop, andI'm sure this happens everywhere.

Regards,
David Head
dthead
Ok, I'll take the bait.
Not all services have to have the same stopping pattern.
Some can run non-stop, others can stop at stations in a particular region then run express.
Not a new concept, often used on suburban lines (until they ran out of capacity); even VFT proposed to it that way.
  bingley hall Minister for Railways

Location: Last train to Skaville
the bane of a new rail line.

Melb Southern Cross - Sydney Central Station, say 3hrs 30min from start to end.

But we want a stop at the Sydney Airport

But we want a stop at Liverpool

But we want a stop at Goluburn

But we want a stop at Canberra

But we want a stop at Wagga Wagga

But we want a stop at Albury

But we want a stop at Seymour

But we want a stop at Melbourne Airport


So now the train takes  hours.........

So a route not through ANY town is good.  Trains could branch off to be stoppers using the existing lines.

Same effect Melb-Bendigo with all the station on that line wanting a stop, andI'm sure this happens everywhere.

Regards,
David Head
Ok, I'll take the bait.
Not all services have to have the same stopping pattern.
Some can run non-stop, others can stop at stations in a particular region then run express.
Not a new concept, often used on suburban lines (until they ran out of capacity); even VFT proposed to it that way.
Lockspike
...and they do the same with the Shinkansen in Japan. But I appreciate it could be too hard a concept for Australia to get it's head around Razz
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
We have been down this path many times in relation to freight services between Melbourne and Sydney but if we look at the rough realities (for a change) we see:

  • Melbourne to Sydney is just under 1,000 km by the existing route.
  • The consortium claims 915 km by their route
  • The 915 km is to be covered in less than two hours.
  • The consortium cannot avoid the two Metrops and slow running associated therewith
  • The Metrop running must take, say, 30 minutes each end to cover 30 km each end.
  • We are now looking at about 850 km of so called high speed running to be covered in something around one hour.
  • An average of 850 km/h with no stops, crosses, roadsides or anything else. Ha bloody ha..............

The foregoing leaves them with 850 km (530 miles) to run in ONE HOUR.

It is a con or, worse still, simply a w a n k.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
We have been down this path many times in relation to freight services between Melbourne and Sydney but if we look at the rough realities (for a change) we see:
.
  • The consortium cannot avoid the two Metrops and slow running associated therewith
  • The Metrop running must take, say, 30 minutes each end to cover 30 km each end.
The foregoing leaves them with 850 km (530 miles) to run in ONE HOUR.

It is a con or, worse still, simply a w a n k.
YM-Mundrabilla

Maybe

Obviously you aren't a Victorian where, ultimately we do things better than our northern counterparts.

  • Steve Bracks, one of Victoria's most popular Labor Premiers ever...who only left the job because his teenage son ran off the rails (pun intended) who oversaw the game-changer RFR project that continues to grow patronage and regional population growth would not lend his support to this proposal if it was a boondoggle.
  • The Regional Rail Link (RRL) project, which is far from perfect where, 5 minutes after leaving Southern Cross station we are travelling at 80KPH and 10 minutes after leaving the same station we are travelling at 130KPH, with scope and investment the HSR would bring easily increasing those speeds.


The Victorian infrastructure model can easily be replicated to eliminate those ridiculous timings you say are set in stone. Besides, Victoria doesn't have the fastest inter-urban commuter trains in AU for nothing.

Page 7 refers...

http://austta.org.au/The%20Times%20201605%20May.pdf

Mike.
  dthead Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
the bane of a new rail line.

So now the train takes  hours.........

So a route not through ANY town is good.  Trains could branch off to be stoppers using the existing lines.

Same effect Melb-Bendigo with all the station on that line wanting a stop, andI'm sure this happens everywhere.

Regards,
David Head
Ok, I'll take the bait.
Not all services have to have the same stopping pattern.
Some can run non-stop, others can stop at stations in a particular region then run express.
Not a new concept, often used on suburban lines (until they ran out of capacity); even VFT proposed to it that way.
...and they do the same with the Shinkansen in Japan. But I appreciate it could be too hard a concept for Australia to get it's head around Razz
bingley hall
So the idea of having to stop for many towns along the way will slow down the total trip. How many times to stop, who get a stop, and say you want to get from two intermediate stops and cannot, etc.

Wonder how long the train would take  to stop, do it's station time then get back up to speed. that extra time per stop will add a lot, surly .

As stated it IS possible, but we have a longer distance to cover, and as [color=#333333][size=4][font=Roboto, wf_SegoeUI, "Segoe UI", Segoe, "Segoe WP", Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]YM-Mundrabilla[/font][/size][/color] stated the entry to each capital city will further slow the time a lot.

So how long will the trip be? Do they have to make a dedicated line into each city. Or perhaps only to the aitports and not to the center of  city? Where the trains stop enroute, surely on seperate tracks so express services can pass?

Regards,
DavidHead
  nswtrains Chief Commissioner

the bane of a new rail line.

Melb Southern Cross - Sydney Central Station, say 3hrs 30min from start to end.

But we want a stop at the Sydney Airport

But we want a stop at Liverpool

But we want a stop at Goluburn

But we want a stop at Canberra

But we want a stop at Wagga Wagga

But we want a stop at Albury

But we want a stop at Seymour

But we want a stop at Melbourne Airport


So now the train takes  hours.........

So a route not through ANY town is good.  Trains could branch off to be stoppers using the existing lines.

Same effect Melb-Bendigo with all the station on that line wanting a stop, andI'm sure this happens everywhere.

Regards,
David Head
dthead
We have a great service already, it is called a jet and is the way to go in a large country with the largest populations, the source of travel, centered on the east coast.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
We have a great service already, it is called a jet and is the way to go in a large country with the largest populations, the source of travel, centered on the east coast.
nswtrains


Perhaps you should have read the story before commenting...
  barryc Chief Train Controller

Location: Waiting for a train to Canungra
We have a great service already, it is called a jet and is the way to go in a large country with the largest populations, the source of travel, centered on the east coast.


Perhaps you should have read the story before commenting...
The Vinelander
Well I've read the story and I still can't see how you can travel 900 odd km in two hours by land when the fastest service speed clocked at present is 430km/h by a maglev train and somewhere less than 400 using conventional rail.

Even if the technology is developed to make the 2 hour trip possible, we are trying to solve a problem that just isn't there.  It takes around an hour and a half to fly and even with the check in time it is not more than about 2 hours.  And that is all fully financed without any speculative land deals and is available immediately.

Travel by high speed train is much more enjoyable than flying but unless we as a society decide that there are other reasons to outlaw air travel (eg environmental reasons), there is no argument for spending unknown gazillions on keeping travelers amused between our two major cities.

I have ignored the crap about the new cities along the route.  Why would a non capital city be set up in the middle of a sheep paddock. The only major city in Australia that has developed in modern times is the Gold Coast and even the back blocks of Upper Coomera (look it up) are only a short drive to the beach.

I console myself that this is the limit of nonsense in Australia. At least we don't have Boris and Donald.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
We have been down this path many times in relation to freight services between Melbourne and Sydney but if we look at the rough realities (for a change) we see:
.
  • The consortium cannot avoid the two Metrops and slow running associated therewith
  • The Metrop running must take, say, 30 minutes each end to cover 30 km each end.
The foregoing leaves them with 850 km (530 miles) to run in ONE HOUR.

It is a con or, worse still, simply a w a n k.

Maybe

Obviously you aren't a Victorian where, ultimately we do things better than our northern counterparts.

  • Steve Bracks, one of Victoria's most popular Labor Premiers ever...who only left the job because his teenage son ran off the rails (pun intended) who oversaw the game-changer RFR project that continues to grow patronage and regional population growth would not lend his support to this proposal if it was a boondoggle.
  • The Regional Rail Link (RRL) project, which is far from perfect where, 5 minutes after leaving Southern Cross station we are travelling at 80KPH and 10 minutes after leaving the same station we are travelling at 130KPH, with scope and investment the HSR would bring easily increasing those speeds.


The Victorian infrastructure model can easily be replicated to eliminate those ridiculous timings you say are set in stone. Besides, Victoria doesn't have the fastest inter-urban commuter trains in AU for nothing.

Page 7 refers...

http://austta.org.au/The%20Times%20201605%20May.pdf

Mike.
The Vinelander
The Vic RFR was successful, but only successful in that it is heavily subsidised and would be shutdown tomorrow if the subsidy was to stop. Outside the main commuter corridors, the trains are only a few carriages. It can no way this side of the 2nd coming be used as a guide or model for HSR. The Vic RFR project simply brought Vic closer to the standards used in NSW over 50 years ago. While NSW interurban alignment is still very much stuck in the 19th century, they move more per day than the Vic RFR does in a week.

The latest HSR proposal drifts off into the lala land of economics and practicality.
- Average speeds exceeding the best Maglev trial technology can offer.
- Relies on high speculative land deals buying up land cheap, building a railway and then re-selling at a significant profit
- Targets a very small minority of the actual commuters who will find the above viable or desirable
- Makes no reference to fares and how the ongoing costs will be funded as it won't be via ticket sales

https://Railpage.com.au/news/s/200b-fast-rail-is-potential-trainwreck

I would suggest that anyone with an ounce of commonsense will stay away from this project in droves.
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Richmond Vic
I think CLARA is the local equivalent of the Nigerian money scam.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
I think CLARA is the local equivalent of the Nigerian money scam.
Valvegear
Absolutely but I can still see ' investors' lining up already. Obviously there are still (even now) people who believe in politicians and ex politicians. I cannot for the life of me see why.

I can make these negative predictions because I will not be around to see it not happen and say ' I told you so' !!.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Do we have a 13 class to run the connecting Yass Tram?
  apw5910 Chief Commissioner

Location: Location: Location.
Do we have a 13 class to run the connecting Yass Tram?
YM-Mundrabilla
Three. Some work required. Small change compared to the rest of this farce.
  SPSD40T2 Chief Commissioner

Location: Platform 9-3/4 and still waiting !!
I think CLARA is the local equivalent of the Nigerian money scam.
Valvegear
why?  it isnt asking for any
  SPSD40T2 Chief Commissioner

Location: Platform 9-3/4 and still waiting !!
Many here are viewing this as a Railway project...it is...but  it is only by default in a fashion.
its a LAND project
The ABS projects Oz will have a population of near 50 million by 2060 We currently have a few over 23 Million

Theres a a hell of a lot of people who will have to live somewhere and work doing something. The current model CANT cope.

Decentralised  Living ( cities/bloody big towns/call whateveryou like ) are possibly the ONLY method to faciltate such growth

and then comes the question...how do people travel between them?  viola...a zippydeedoodah train.
WIN / WIN

Hell...even if they can only do city to city in 2 1/2 hours thats still a winner for mine
Maglev  is an option probably...Wheels on Steel will max out in efficiency at around 400kph.

Ya know what I dont care .Thats still a lot quicker cbd to cbd than taking an aerial bus.

A lot of people WONT need to do the full trip but even those that do there will undoubtedly be the expresses.. CBC/airport to airport/cbd

Its not about bringing the price in the sticks to equate melb/syd to make the money its about a 5/10000 block becoming worth 125000 etc.  Houses in the big metros will always outpace regional but maybe a lot of people might like a house in the country. Bit of fresh air and all mod cons .

Yes its all speculation to date.. But as the biggest hurdle has always been the public purse well that was just taken out of the equation. Now it actually becomes hard for most pollies to resist. Who wouldnt want to see a bonanza appearing in their region electorate ?

Housing affordability, lifestyles. Hundreds of thousands of jobs over a generation ( at least ) , technology transfer and related industry growth ...whats not to like.

Stuff NBN thats a f'n #@*! up from beginning to end.  This would be a modern day Snowy Mountain Scheme ...i.e  something useful.

Logic would also suggest that "dont fade my curtains" QLD would also want in to extend to Brisvegas..and why not.

The amount of work required to do ALL of this is staggering. The money that would flow into the economy is beyond telephone numbers ( std's included ). This wont cost the nation money...it will MAKE money !!

Dont necessarily adjudicate the viability on todays speeds and times...think what it ought to be in say 10 years.

This is a bloody marvelous idea and I fervently hope it grows legs
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
We have been down this path many times in relation to freight services between Melbourne and Sydney but if we look at the rough realities (for a change) we see:
.
  • The consortium cannot avoid the two Metrops and slow running associated therewith
  • The Metrop running must take, say, 30 minutes each end to cover 30 km each end.
The foregoing leaves them with 850 km (530 miles) to run in ONE HOUR.

It is a con or, worse still, simply a w a n k.

Maybe

Obviously you aren't a Victorian where, ultimately we do things better than our northern counterparts.

  • Steve Bracks, one of Victoria's most popular Labor Premiers ever...who only left the job because his teenage son ran off the rails (pun intended) who oversaw the game-changer RFR project that continues to grow patronage and regional population growth would not lend his support to this proposal if it was a boondoggle.
  • The Regional Rail Link (RRL) project, which is far from perfect where, 5 minutes after leaving Southern Cross station we are travelling at 80KPH and 10 minutes after leaving the same station we are travelling at 130KPH, with scope and investment the HSR would bring easily increasing those speeds.


The Victorian infrastructure model can easily be replicated to eliminate those ridiculous timings you say are set in stone. Besides, Victoria doesn't have the fastest inter-urban commuter trains in AU for nothing.

Page 7 refers...

http://austta.org.au/The%20Times%20201605%20May.pdf

Mike.
The Vic RFR was successful, but only successful in that it is heavily subsidised and would be shutdown tomorrow if the subsidy was to stop. Outside the main commuter corridors, the trains are only a few carriages. It can no way this side of the 2nd coming be used as a guide or model for HSR. The Vic RFR project simply brought Vic closer to the standards used in NSW over 50 years ago. While NSW interurban alignment is still very much stuck in the 19th century, they move more per day than the Vic RFR does in a week.

The latest HSR proposal drifts off into the lala land of economics and practicality.
- Average speeds exceeding the best Maglev trial technology can offer.
- Relies on high speculative land deals buying up land cheap, building a railway and then re-selling at a significant profit
- Targets a very small minority of the actual commuters who will find the above viable or desirable
- Makes no reference to fares and how the ongoing costs will be funded as it won't be via ticket sales

https://Railpage.com.au/news/s/200b-fast-rail-is-potential-trainwreck

I would suggest that anyone with an ounce of commonsense will stay away from this project in droves.
RTT_Rules

No offence Shane...but you're over there in the Arabian desert doing what you do. You aren't here in Victoria, travelling every day as I do and watching the patronage grow and not just at peak times either that a three car train even at an off-peak, hourly frequency is insufficient for pax necessitating the additional construction of more cars to boost most services to 6 cars.

A true economist, you aren't taking into account the regional development and population shift that's come along in the past 10 years since the RFR was instigated by an advocate of the HSR...Steve Bracks.

I fully intend to still be around in 20 years at the age of 81 to see if the HSR proposal gets up, however as I can't get through to the bean-counters and naysayers of this proposal, I'm hereby ending all further comments on this subject from now.

Mike.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE

No offence Shane...but you're over there in the Arabian desert doing what you do. You aren't here in Victoria, travelling every day as I do and watching the patronage grow and not just at peak times either that a three car train even at an off-peak, hourly frequency is insufficient for pax necessitating the additional construction of more cars to boost most services to 6 cars.

A true economist, you aren't taking into account the regional development and population shift that's come along in the past 10 years since the RFR was instigated by an advocate of the HSR...Steve Bracks.

I fully intend to still be around in 20 years at the age of 81 to see if the HSR proposal gets up, however as I can't get through to the bean-counters and naysayers of this proposal, I'm hereby ending all further comments on this subject from now.

Mike.
The Vinelander
Mike,
As a I said aside from some of the commuter routes like Geelong and Latrobe Valley, the rest isn't a huge number in people and yes I acknowledge the growth rates are very strong, but we are along away away to saying significant numbers overall. The project has obviously been successful, but on the back of a large subsidy.

Now, does the Vic govt propose to subsidise people to travel from the border region to Melbourne daily for work? Yes I doubt it very much. The Bean Counters across the border feel the same.

Like it not, the world is run by money and it has to come from somewhere and Beancounters are paid to make sure the rest of us are not treated like a Money tree.

One day I suspect we will have a HSR and I'll be happy when it comes too, but that day is when the project can mostly fund its own construction and operation.
  SPSD40T2 Chief Commissioner

Location: Platform 9-3/4 and still waiting !!
..........
One day I suspect we will have a HSR and I'll be happy when it comes too, but that day is when the project can mostly fund its own construction and operation.
RTT_Rule
Isnt that exactly what this project portends to do ?
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Many here are viewing this as a Railway project...it is...but  it is only by default in a fashion.
its a LAND project
The ABS projects Oz will have a population of near 50 million by 2060 We currently have a few over 23 Million

Theres a a hell of a lot of people who will have to live somewhere and work doing something. The current model CANT cope.

Decentralised  Living ( cities/bloody big towns/call whateveryou like ) are possibly the ONLY method to faciltate such growth

and then comes the question...how do people travel between them?  viola...a zippydeedoodah train.
WIN / WIN

Hell...even if they can only do city to city in 2 1/2 hours thats still a winner for mine
Maglev  is an option probably...Wheels on Steel will max out in efficiency at around 400kph.

Ya know what I dont care .Thats still a lot quicker cbd to cbd than taking an aerial bus.

A lot of people WONT need to do the full trip but even those that do there will undoubtedly be the expresses.. CBC/airport to airport/cbd

Its not about bringing the price in the sticks to equate melb/syd to make the money its about a 5/10000 block becoming worth 125000 etc.  Houses in the big metros will always outpace regional but maybe a lot of people might like a house in the country. Bit of fresh air and all mod cons .

Yes its all speculation to date.. But as the biggest hurdle has always been the public purse well that was just taken out of the equation. Now it actually becomes hard for most pollies to resist. Who wouldnt want to see a bonanza appearing in their region electorate ?

Housing affordability, lifestyles. Hundreds of thousands of jobs over a generation ( at least ) , technology transfer and related industry growth ...whats not to like.

Stuff NBN thats a f'n #@*! up from beginning to end.  This would be a modern day Snowy Mountain Scheme ...i.e  something useful.

Logic would also suggest that "dont fade my curtains" QLD would also want in to extend to Brisvegas..and why not.

The amount of work required to do ALL of this is staggering. The money that would flow into the economy is beyond telephone numbers ( std's included ). This wont cost the nation money...it will MAKE money !!

Dont necessarily adjudicate the viability on todays speeds and times...think what it ought to be in say 10 years.

This is a bloody marvelous idea and I fervently hope it grows legs
SPSD40T2
How will the population cope with 50m, the same as EU and East Coast Nth America.

The fresh country air won't last long when there is 10-15m people living along the 700km corridor.

People won't be living on wide open blocks, as to make the HSR viable as a commuter option they will need to be within 30-45min drive of the station if they work in the city. Its still a 2hr overall commute, hardly attractive.

At $100,000 a block of land to fund the HSR, you need to sell 2 million blocks of land to make $200B. After allocating money to fund local infrastructure and building a house, you are still putting a $500-700k property on market to compete with suburban properties.

The Airbus option at 3hr tops CBD to CBD will always be competitive against HSR. HSR will have imposed security checks and other that will eat into its overall times.

HSR will come, but not on the back of a massive govt funded black hole or BS land proposal like this one. It will come when its viable on its own or with only minor govt support to aid its construction. Maglev technology has failed to be commercial viable now, but it maybe ok in 20-30years, maybe but we said that 20-30 years ago.
  SPSD40T2 Chief Commissioner

Location: Platform 9-3/4 and still waiting !!
47% of the entire pop of Australia is currently addressed in 2 cities. There is no way in earth either can cope with the expected growth.  You cant say we will, like the US or EU, as their pop models the exact opposite to ours. What we do need to do is take a leaf out of their books and have more locations with larger numbers of people.

Strangely, or not, that is exactly what CLARA proposes.
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Richmond Vic
I think CLARA is the local equivalent of the Nigerian money scam.
"Valvegear"


why?  it isnt asking for any
"SPSD40T2"

You're obviously not familiar with the Nigerian scam. It offers flipping great wodges of cash for gullible people to swallow, then systematically bleeds them if they're silly enough.
I, for one, don't believe that CLARA is on this scheme just because they're nice guys. They want money and a lot of it, or they wouldn't be here.
I think it has a distinct odour of fish.
  LancedDendrite Chief Commissioner

Location: Gheringhap Loop Autonomous Zone
There is no way on Earth [that] either can cope with the expected growth.
SPSD40T2
Absolute rubbish.

Melbourne and Sydney are vast, (reasonably) flat conurbations with plenty of room to grow - upwards. This is already happening gradually. It'd happen faster if the State Governments stopped expanding urban growth boundaries, but as the saying goes: never get between a politician and a bag of money!

Of course, the growth of such satanic contraptions as mid-rise apartment towers and mixed-use developments in the middle-ring suburbs might offend the delicate sensibilities of the Herald Sun and Daily Telegraph's dwindling subscriber base.

CLARA is a speculative land-grab venture with a bit of Maglev sizzle and a couple of domesticated post-politicians in tow. I'm not the first person to draw parallels between it and the Multi-Function Polis saga and I probably won't be the last.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
What is the 50 million people going to do for a job.
OK 10 million will need to work for Centrelink but what are the rest going to do for a job.
The country is stuffed as it is with 23 million.

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