Topic moved from General by dthead on 10 Oct 2016 21:40
  eddyb Chief Train Controller

I hope to have a serious discussion on using a proven Japanese maglev like they now want to use with CLARA https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail_in_Australia#CLARA_Proposal_.282016-present.29 but to out perform air travel with price and speed by running it at 1,000kph in a low pressure dead straight single tunnels between Melbourne, Albury, Canberra and Parramatta linking these cities with 15 minute trips and creating in ten years a $700m yearly returm monopoly.

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  dthead Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
link to a serious proposal please, 2nd source for this will help explain it.

Regards,
DavidHead
  eddyb Chief Train Controller

link to a serious proposal please, 2nd source for this will help explain it.

Regards,
DavidHead
dthead
Japan will loan America half the cost of the maglev so I sent the Japanese prime minister an email asking if the offer would apply to Australia too.http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/japan/10555330/Japan-offers-to-lend-US-half-the-cost-of-Super-Maglev-train-between-Washington-and-Baltimore.html

In it I suggested that it be put in a single low pressure dead straight tunnel connecting cities with a 15 minute shuttle saving half the cost of building and running it.
  wobert Chief Commissioner

Location: Half way between Propodolla and Kinimakatka
sigh
  billybaxter Chief Commissioner

Location: Bosnia Park, Fairfield
Your project is 15 times the length for roughly the same population base. I think it'd cost something like the annual military expenditure of Russia. And why Parramatta? Despite your dreaming, it is and always will be a suburb of Sydney.
  eddyb Chief Train Controller

On the ATDB forum Magtube was stuck in the fantasy section but the Skyscraper forum asked serious questions that I was able to address.

If anybody wants to ask serious questions here and is prepared to read what I write I will answer them.
  eddyb Chief Train Controller

Your project is 15 times the length for roughly the same population base. I think it'd cost something like the annual military expenditure of Russia. And why Parramatta? Despite your dreaming, it is and always will be a suburb of Sydney.
billybaxter
The NWRL tunnels cost $1.15b for 30 kilometres of TBM tunnel or $38m/km so 800km of single tunnel would be $30b.


Assuming the cost of guideway in the tunnels is $7m/km over 800km would be $5b


Total cost is $35b over ten years.


Interest at 1% on $35b is $35m p/a


As airlines could not compete on that route for speed and price the Magtube would have an income of 700 passengers paying a $100 fare leaving ample for running costs.


Victoria builds Melbourne to Albury at $500m per year with the fed going dollar for dollar


Act builds Albury to Canberra at $500m per year with the fed going dollar for dollar


NSW builds Parramatta to Canberra at $500m per year with the fed going dollar for dollar


Very popular with much value added to Albury and Canberra as they grow and take pressure of Sydney and Melbourne


We need jobs in Australia and there are a lot of unemployed engineers now the mining boom is over and working people pay tax rather than receiving the dole.


As we mine everything needed already we only have to make a guideway factory and buy the technology off the Japanese.
  billybaxter Chief Commissioner

Location: Bosnia Park, Fairfield
Check your financing. I just used one of those loan calculator things to estimate daily repayments on a $35b loan, 1% p.a. repaid over 50 years. About $2.5 m per day. 12 services each way per day, 700 passengers, $100 per ticket, 85% of seats sold comes in at about $1.5 m per day in ticket sales.
  eddyb Chief Train Controller

Check your financing. I just used one of those loan calculator things to estimate daily repayments on a $35b loan, 1% p.a. repaid over 50 years. About $2.5 m per day. 12 services each way per day, 700 passengers, $100 per ticket, 85% of seats sold comes in at about $1.5 m per day in ticket sales.
billybaxter
Thanks for the opportunity to engage in serious discussion.


In my opinion a balance between government and private enterprise is the ideal where projects can be done for the national good such as decentralization and infrastructure but at a competitive cost.


Japan is so keen to sell technology they are offering America a cheap loan for half if they use it and other countries will pay you to look after their money for ten years but even if we had to borrow over ten years at 1% it would be loaned out again until such time as is needed like the NSW government sale of poles and wires.


Unemployment is about to rise dramatically so building Magtube would keep tax coming in rather than dole going out and being seen as likely to increase productivity more than a new hospital we are likely to retain our AAA rating.


With plenty of work growing Albury and Canberra house prices in Melbourne and Sydney would stabilise with those living there having access to everything in the other two cities only 15 minutes away anyway.


Not subject to sudden price increase of jet fuel which is 25% of operating costs I believe it would kill all air traffic on this route so getting the full 700m passengers per year when finished being faster, cheaper, safer and more reliable.
  billybaxter Chief Commissioner

Location: Bosnia Park, Fairfield
Please give detailed calculations showing estimated income. Include ticket price, expected passenger numbers and service frequency.

Canberra and Albury are not on a straight line from Sydney to Melbourne so there will be sharp corners at those points or will people change service each time.

The earth is curved so a direct straight tunnel will be very deep at Canberra, maybe deep enough to require a 15 min. Escalator or lift ride down to the station.
  eddyb Chief Train Controller

Please give detailed calculations showing estimated income. Include ticket price, expected passenger numbers and service frequency.

Canberra and Albury are not on a straight line from Sydney to Melbourne so there will be sharp corners at those points or will people change service each time.

The earth is curved so a direct straight tunnel will be very deep at Canberra, maybe deep enough to require a 15 min. Escalator or lift ride down to the station.
billybaxter
As it is hard to know how many people travel CBD to CBD it is only my guess as to the patronage also it depends on how much cheaper or quick the Magtube is.


If in ten years there are 10m people paying $100 each way Sydney/Melbourne and operating costs are only 10% that of planes  the $1b per annum income would make it a worthwhile endeavour while 10 year bonds are so low.


As everybody wants to travel that route in the peak the Magtube car must be 500m long and 5.8m wide to take the ten seat rows providing 5,000 seats.


The stations at Albury and Canberra could be located on the surface or as deep as the city wants although passengers would have to transfer because the rigid car cannot do turns as it is too wide also one tunnel means one Magtube shuttle car.


With 20 minutes travel time between cities the passengers would only have 10 minutes at each station to disembark on one platform and board from the other side through airplane type doors located every 20m like a conventional train.
  eddyb Chief Train Controller

Saw an interesting thing on TV about trains in Mumbai where an average of nine people per day get killed by trains and they have up to 5,000 people in an open door twelve car train.


Anyway perhaps as some people are not investing in coal mines they may be interested in putting their money into something that would save thousands of tons of Co2  http://www.news.com.au/finance/business/what-it-costs-to-put-a-plane-in-the-air/story-fnda1bsz-1226849245958


Another thing is perhaps simply by putting an exhaust valve either end most air in the tunnel will be pushed out by the train avoiding the need for any vacuum pump.
  billybaxter Chief Commissioner

Location: Bosnia Park, Fairfield
You're fudging your numbers each time. And you keep omitting capital cost from finance. Now it's a 90 min trip with 2 changes. Plane will remain more attractive. Again, dead straight line between cities is chordal, not following surface which is a curve. Also means exchange platforms will be at different angles. With 500m long train passengers at one end will have to walk 100m across to other train, those at other end have 10m walk. How is maintenance done if train is rigid. Units can't swap positions. Terrible idea. Will have to build big hospitals in Albury and Canberra too as seriously sick people can't get this train.
  eddyb Chief Train Controller

You're fudging your numbers each time. And you keep omitting capital cost from finance. Now it's a 90 min trip with 2 changes. Plane will remain more attractive. Again, dead straight line between cities is chordal, not following surface which is a curve. Also means exchange platforms will be at different angles. With 500m long train passengers at one end will have to walk 100m across to other train, those at other end have 10m walk. How is maintenance done if train is rigid. Units can't swap positions. Terrible idea. Will have to build big hospitals in Albury and Canberra too as seriously sick people can't get this train.
billybaxter
Capital costs would all depend on when it was started and we may have missed the boat there now Donald Trump is causing bond interest rates to climb.


Originally I had thought a 2,000 seat car would suffice but have since found out that it will not so I increased it to 5,000.


Originally I had divided the distance between cities by 1,000 kph but it was pointed out to me that never allowed for tolerable g force accelerating and decelerating so now it is 20 minutes for each car to travel between cities with ten minutes to transfer at intermediate stations or a one hour round trip each car.


If someone wanted to go from Sydney to Melbourne for example they could catch the 6am at Sydney, transfer to the 6.30am at Canberra then transfer again to the 7 am at Albury getting them there at 7.20 am.


I know people do not like to transfer but it would make it economically viable where a second tunnel would not.


My Granddaughter pointed out a safety hazard to me so now it is even faster to restore pressure just between the car and the tunnel rather than the whole station.


I think you have a good point about the car being rigid as even with travelators the distance at one end of the platform would be too great however if it has a turn radius the same as the Japanese maglev the g force should be acceptable as it would be slowing down and still allow 5.6m width to accommodate the ten seat rows.


Assume you mean people with pacemakers not able to travel due to electromagnetism but they could be shielded in a section like we have on a microwave.


I have drawn it up on google warehouse https://3dwarehouse.sketchup.com/search.html?q=magtube&backendClass=both
  billybaxter Chief Commissioner

Location: Bosnia Park, Fairfield
5000 passengers? That's 10 tgv loads, or 8 a380s. How will you manage to comfortably load that and evacuate the arrival stations without causing chaos. People will have to turn up an hour before departure and take just as long to get out of the ensuing traffic jams on arrival.
  eddyb Chief Train Controller

5000 passengers? That's 10 tgv loads, or 8 a380s. How will you manage to comfortably load that and evacuate the arrival stations without causing chaos. People will have to turn up an hour before departure and take just as long to get out of the ensuing traffic jams on arrival.
billybaxter
You are right again that sure is a lot of people and to cope you would need about six 1m wide escalators or moving walkways to clear them in ten minutes at Sydney and Melbourne but half could be shut down in the off peak times to save money.


Here is a link to their capacity https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwi518i9zr_QAhWDtpQKHRmCDw8QFggZMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.schindler.com%2Fcontent%2Fnz%2Finternet%2Fen%2Fmobility-solutions%2Fproducts%2Fmoving-walks%2F_jcr_content%2FrightPar%2Fdownloadlist%2FdownloadList%2F70_1368592441298.download.asset.70_1368592441298%2FPlanning%2520Guide%2520for%2520Escalators%2520and%2520Moving%2520Walks_en.pdf&usg=AFQjCNFSgjQxoF3KW2NnVzsiEbcXZHMxrw&sig2=PG5WO_9HpGoPwPDOanX0uA&bvm=bv.139782543,d.dGc


And here is a link to some very busy stations http://greatergreaterwashington.org/post/16797/which-metro-stations-are-busiest/


I believe the Indian trains sometimes have 5,000 passengers but we could do it a bit better with more money.


If you check out Magtube on Google warehouse you will see that it has the same number of doors as a conventional train but with a platform either side has twice the loading ability. https://3dwarehouse.sketchup.com/search.html?q=magtube&backendClass=both


These are all good questions and are things I need to think about.
  billybaxter Chief Commissioner

Location: Bosnia Park, Fairfield
Nice links. You'll notice the busiest metro station has 9,700 entries across the whole of the morning peak. With your plan, you'll have two 5000 passenger capacity trains arriving at both Canberra and Albury at the same time, that's a total of 10,000 passengers, and most of those passengers wanting to cross the platform and find their seat in ten minutes. 10,000 people onto and off one island platform in ten minutes. The population of a town like Inverell. And half will be walking in the opposite direction to the other half. At Sydney and Melbourne you'll be trying to offload 5000 passengers and then load 5000 others in ten minutes. A big ask.
  eddyb Chief Train Controller

Nice links. You'll notice the busiest metro station has 9,700 entries across the whole of the morning peak. With your plan, you'll have two 5000 passenger capacity trains arriving at both Canberra and Albury at the same time, that's a total of 10,000 passengers, and most of those passengers wanting to cross the platform and find their seat in ten minutes. 10,000 people onto and off one island platform in ten minutes. The population of a town like Inverell. And half will be walking in the opposite direction to the other half. At Sydney and Melbourne you'll be trying to offload 5000 passengers and then load 5000 others in ten minutes. A big ask.
billybaxter
At present I believe there are about 2,000 people per hour going Sydney to Melbourne but it needs future capacity.


Agreed most passengers would want to use the centre platform to transfer between trains at Canberra and Albury so perhaps it could be made easier to have exit one end of the cars and entry the other.


Sydney and Melbourne could also use the alternate doors even with doors and a platform both sides.
  billybaxter Chief Commissioner

Location: Bosnia Park, Fairfield
Perhaps a very large barrel style mechanism like in a revolver pistol could be used at Canberra and Albury to transfer cars between tubes instead of requiring people to change. Each car arrives, slips simultaneously into opposite barrels, and is rotated to the other side to continue the journey. Rigid cars can pass each other this way. Also allows the card to be removed for maintenance.
  eddyb Chief Train Controller

Perhaps a very large barrel style mechanism like in a revolver pistol could be used at Canberra and Albury to transfer cars between tubes instead of requiring people to change. Each car arrives, slips simultaneously into opposite barrels, and is rotated to the other side to continue the journey. Rigid cars can pass each other this way. Also allows the card to be removed for maintenance.
billybaxter
Thanks heaps for pointing that out as it was a big ask and not only would it have to be faster and cheaper than air it needs to be more reliable and comfortable.


I have drawn up 200 person carriages that sit on big maglev bogies to allow passing tunnels at the intermediate stations.


Passengers will enter the green end and exit the red to allow the one hour schedule to be done easily.


It may even be advantageous to have a one hour schedule to synchronise with other PT.

Magtube carriages https://3dwarehouse.sketchup.com/search.html?q=magtube+train&backendClass=both
  eddyb Chief Train Controller

This is the email I sent to TfNSW and the International maglev board yesterday


Thanks to feedback from a number of people I have refined Magtube so could you check out the refined Magtube concept please.  

Economics
To build three 200km long single tunnels the same as the NWRL would cost $35b using the same cost per kilometre plus the Maglev track of $5b
As it would take ten years the three states could start now at $500m per year matched by the federal government and as air traffic on that route could not compete there would be a guaranteed $1b per year income with little labour or maintenance and far less energy consumed with an exhaust valve each end of each tunnel reducing the air resistance to half.

Capacity
At present there are 2,000 people per hour in the peaks and as each carriage is 5.6m wide the 20 rows of 10 allows 200 per carriage which could extend to 15 carriages if need be.

Transferring passengers
As the Magtube is now made of 200 seat carriages it is possible to have passing loops at stations to allow Sydney/Melbourne passengers a one seat one hour ride.

G force
As high speed running is only done in the dead straight tunnel consideration is only to normal acceleration/deceleration.

Maintaining a low pressure tunnel
As well as no need for expansion joints the easiest and cheapest way to reduce the atmospheric pressure in the tunnel is with an exhaust valve either end of each section and for safety and speed the tunnel could extend right through the station with inner and outer doors opened once air doors have been closed and atmospheric pressure has been normalised.  

Value capture
With Albury and Canberra only being 20 minutes from Melbourne and Sydney respectively and 20 minutes from each other the station location would depend entirely on the four cities as would be their value capture but I am assuming it would almost pay for Magtube while creating tax payers in place of dole recipients.
  eddyb Chief Train Controller

The best schedule I can make for a one seat one hour ride is for a train leaving each end at 40 minute frequencies to pass alternately at Albury and Canberra.
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Richmond Vic
For starters, the shortest distance between Sydney and Melbourne isn't a straight line; it's an arc of a great circle. If you want your tunnel straight and flat, it's going to be a long way down in places, and it's not going anywhere near Albury or Canberra
( or Parramatta, God help us!)

I don't know what you're taking eddy, but if it makes you feel that good, I'll have three.
  eddyb Chief Train Controller

For starters, the shortest distance between Sydney and Melbourne isn't a straight line; it's an arc of a great circle. If you want your tunnel straight and flat, it's going to be a long way down in places, and it's not going anywhere near Albury or Canberra
( or Parramatta, God help us!)

I don't know what you're taking eddy, but if it makes you feel that good, I'll have three.
Valvegear
Valvegear

Thanks for the opportunity to explain that it would be three dead straight tunnels between Melbourne, Albury, Canberra and Parramatta that will now have 200 person carriages that will allow a one seat one hour ride end to end thanks to feedback from billiebaxter and others

These three tunnels would have to have a different elevation either end due to geography and the location decided on by the cities they connect.

Consideration of g force would only be required under acceleration or deceleration as high speed running would not be done on slight bends at intermediate stations.  

EDIT
By using seven trains with four in stations for 15 minutes while three are in tunnels it would be possible to provide a one seat ride between Melbourne and Sydney every 15 minutes.
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Richmond Vic
I cannot remember ever being so underwhelmed.

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