Rear assist Bathurst to Lithgow ???

 
Topic moved from General by dthead on 12 Feb 2017 22:47
  gordon_s1942 Chief Commissioner

Location: Central Tablelands of NSW
Last night (Saturday, 11 Feb) ,) my Son waited for an UP train at the Rydal Level crossing between 2330 and midnight and he said it had 3~4 engines in the lead which is quite usual but it had a loco in the rear !!
He said he thought it was a much longer train than we usually see going through here made up of containers.

I am guessing this goods left Bx around 2130 but whether it started from there or came in from the West I have no idea how it works today.


The BIG question is, was my Son seeing 'Things' or was it assisted from the rear?

The two 'prime grades' are between Bathurst to Raglan and Tarana (mostly past Sodwalls) to around the 170km mark between Rydal and Wallerawang.

Bank engines were used on nearly all Up Goods from Bathurst to Raglan and I think many would have liked an assist from  Sodwalls to the old 110 Mile mark.

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  bingley hall Minister for Railways

Location: Last train to Skaville
The Fletchers intermodal train from Dubbo to Port Botany regularly loads to 6000 tonnes these days and is banked from Dubbo to Mt Victoria with a G class on the rear.

While these record loadings are a great news story, I am sure the armchair operators on here will instead be only too happy to argue why this is such a bad idea and if they were allowed to play trains how they would be doing things so much better Razz
  seb2351 Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
The Fletchers intermodal train from Dubbo to Port Botany regularly loads to 6000 tonnes these days and is banked from Dubbo to Mt Victoria with a G class on the rear.

While these record loadings are a great news story, I am sure the armchair operators on here will instead be only too happy to argue why this is such a bad idea and if they were allowed to play trains how they would be doing things so much better Razz
bingley hall
All I read from this topic is that there 6000t of produce regularly on rail instead of road. Whether they use 1, 2 or 20 locos does it matter?

This kind of working gets trucks off our highways and keeps the roads safer for all.

(No, I am not anti-truck, I just don't see the sense in 100 trucks v 1 train)
  awsgc24 Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney
FYI, except for Raglan Bank ( 1 in 50) and Zig Zag Bank (1 in 42) the ruling grade between Bathurst and Bell in the up direction is 1 in 75.

See: http://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/sites/default/files/b2b/railcorp/Curve_and_Gradient_Diagrams_V2-0_b.pdf
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

The Fletchers intermodal train from Dubbo to Port Botany regularly loads to 6000 tonnes these days and is banked from Dubbo to Mt Victoria with a G class on the rear.

While these record loadings are a great news story, I am sure the armchair operators on here will instead be only too happy to argue why this is such a bad idea and if they were allowed to play trains how they would be doing things so much better Razz
bingley hall

Not at all bingley. If 1 or 2 engines are needed for banking I am all for it. The other reason for a bank is for the return journey out of port botany. Instead of sending engines around in the tight confines of port botany an engine or 2 at each end speeds things up. Qube shuttles to and from port botany do this as well as other freight movements in and around Sydney.
  bingley hall Minister for Railways

Location: Last train to Skaville
The Fletchers intermodal train from Dubbo to Port Botany regularly loads to 6000 tonnes these days and is banked from Dubbo to Mt Victoria with a G class on the rear.

While these record loadings are a great news story, I am sure the armchair operators on here will instead be only too happy to argue why this is such a bad idea and if they were allowed to play trains how they would be doing things so much better Razz

Not at all bingley. If 1 or 2 engines are needed for banking I am all for it. The other reason for a bank is for the return journey out of port botany. ......
simstrain
That would be why its comes off at Mt Victoria Razz
  Just The Tip Junior Train Controller

Location: Danger zone
Instead of sending engines around in the tight confines of port botany an engine or 2 at each end speeds things up. Qube shuttles to and from port botany do this as well as other freight movements in and around Sydney.
simstrain
No they don't.
  Trainplanner Chief Commissioner

Location: Along the Line
Thanks Bingley Hall.   Loading up to around 6,000 tonnes for what is a regional freight train is extremely impressive.   What impresses me equally is to see and hear of this up tick in rail freight around the place.

Just a question for anyone.    How is the down grade run through the mountain and through Sydney Metro go.   I'm only guessing that there would be some strict requirements regarding tonneage versus dynamic braking etc.   I do know in the US that "helper" units did/do often stay on trains after pushing in order to provide additional breaking capability for the descent.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Instead of sending engines around in the tight confines of port botany an engine or 2 at each end speeds things up. Qube shuttles to and from port botany do this as well as other freight movements in and around Sydney.
No they don't.
Just The Tip

Yes they do.
  Just The Tip Junior Train Controller

Location: Danger zone
Instead of sending engines around in the tight confines of port botany an engine or 2 at each end speeds things up. Qube shuttles to and from port botany do this as well as other freight movements in and around Sydney.
No they don't.

Yes they do.
simstrain
Please, provide evidence. Or are you just assuming based on what you saw once?

I know one operator who does it on a rare occasion, one operator who 'may' do it when track work is on - but that has nothing to do with making it easier in Botany.
  bingley hall Minister for Railways

Location: Last train to Skaville
A YouTube clip (not mine) showing the train with banker attached.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9R4-85OMyI
  michaelgm Chief Commissioner

So, the bank engine detaches at, MT Vic.

Then what happens?

Return to Dibbo LE? If so, is that one shift?

Proceed back to Lithgow, and wait for the next down train, to attach, and then back to Dubbo?

The whole working is quite intriguing. No idea, this was occurring.

Any info. Would be appreciated.

Regards, Mick.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Instead of sending engines around in the tight confines of port botany an engine or 2 at each end speeds things up. Qube shuttles to and from port botany do this as well as other freight movements in and around Sydney.
No they don't.

Yes they do.
Please, provide evidence. Or are you just assuming based on what you saw once?

I know one operator who does it on a rare occasion, one operator who 'may' do it when track work is on - but that has nothing to do with making it easier in Botany.
Just The Tip
I haven't seen it just once. I see it all the time on the main south and even the ssfl. I have seen many Qube and pacnat trains with loco's at both ends. I should have some video evidence but you can't see it because video posting is too difficult on here.
  michaelgm Chief Commissioner

My question, above, relates to this particular, long distance bank engine working, not a push-pull arrangement.

Regards, Mick.
  nswtrains Chief Commissioner

My question, above, relates to this particular, long distance bank engine working, not a push-pull arrangement.

Regards, Mick.
michaelgm
Whilst anything is possible, I am often at Mt Victoria for work related activities and I do not believe a bank engine would be taken off at Mt Victoria as it would cause too many operational difficulties. If anything the banker would remain attached to the train for the whole journey.

The only turn back operation I am aware at Mt Victoria is the daily rail clean operation where a V set moves a few hundred metres west of Mt Vic on the down and then reverses to the up and continues on to Lawson. I do not think it is possible to move from the up to the down at Mt Vic. No one who works there has seen such an operation.

I am sure that if it did occur, it would be such an unusual move that a number of the usual photographers would be up there to capture the movement.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Sorry my mistake for mistaking banking for push-pull but I will stand by my view that push pull occurs regularly with the shuttles to port botany. Maybe not always but I see it enough as these trains go past me while I am waiting for a passenger train to suggest that it would seem to be common practice.
  michaelgm Chief Commissioner

If the above is correct? And bank engine is removed, then perhaps at ZigZag, bottom points?

Just speculation, on my part, all this is new, to me.
  Just The Tip Junior Train Controller

Location: Danger zone
Lets just end this now before the egos get out of control.

The bank loco is detached at Mt Victoria and returns LE to Lithgow.

And 99.9% of trains arrive at Botany with loco/s in the lead and run around. Observe trains arriving every day and running the locos around.
Any push pull is a rarity and does not improve efficiency at the ports end of the operation.
The one I have seen on a Sunday runs from Enfield, detaches the lead loco outside the port gate allowing the rear loco to push the train into the port, clogging the neck of the yard, taking the same amount of time as a simple run around.
  sydneyshortnorth Train Controller

Location: On the 1 in 40.
Lets just end this now before the egos get out of control.

The bank loco is detached at Mt Victoria and returns LE to Lithgow.

And 99.9% of trains arrive at Botany with loco/s in the lead and run around. Observe trains arriving every day and running the locos around.
Any push pull is a rarity and does not improve efficiency at the ports end of the operation.
The one I have seen on a Sunday runs from Enfield, detaches the lead loco outside the port gate allowing the rear loco to push the train into the port, clogging the neck of the yard, taking the same amount of time as a simple run around.
Just The Tip
This morning's PN shuttle ex-Botany was top'n'tailed with an 81 at each end (8182 & 8151) while the QUBE tripper that followed him out of the docks had just a single MZ (1431). Maybe call this part of the debate a draw, eh?

Steve
  bingley hall Minister for Railways

Location: Last train to Skaville
Whilst anything is possible, I am often at Mt Victoria for work related activities and I do not believe a bank engine would be taken off at Mt Victoria as it would cause too many operational difficulties. If anything the banker would remain attached to the train for the whole journey.

The only turn back operation I am aware at Mt Victoria is the daily rail clean operation where a V set moves a few hundred metres west of Mt Vic on the down and then reverses to the up and continues on to Lawson. I do not think it is possible to move from the up to the down at Mt Vic. No one who works there has seen such an operation.

I am sure that if it did occur, it would be such an unusual move that a number of the usual photographers would be up there to capture the movement.
nswtrains
How could one person be so wrong so many times in one post Laughing
  apw5910 Chief Commissioner

Location: Location: Location.
Whilst anything is possible, I am often at Mt Victoria for work related activities and I do not believe a bank engine would be taken off at Mt Victoria as it would cause too many operational difficulties. If anything the banker would remain attached to the train for the whole journey.

The only turn back operation I am aware at Mt Victoria is the daily rail clean operation where a V set moves a few hundred metres west of Mt Vic on the down and then reverses to the up and continues on to Lawson. I do not think it is possible to move from the up to the down at Mt Vic. No one who works there has seen such an operation.

I am sure that if it did occur, it would be such an unusual move that a number of the usual photographers would be up there to capture the movement.
How could one person be so wrong so many times in one post Laughing
bingley hall
Must be a journalist Very Happy
  gordon_s1942 Chief Commissioner

Location: Central Tablelands of NSW
I sure got my query answered in SPADES I would think.
Thanks to all those who replied even if they werent confirming this Bank Engine/Rear Assist between Bathurst and Lithgow.
As I said I was totally unaware that this was being done as I cant see much of the Main line now because of all the tree plantings in the Village plus I rarely go out at night now.

While the gradient of the Track would be the most important part of deciding to add a Banker or not, I think both the approach to the grade and any curves encountered must add to the requirement.
It was the lack of any 'Run Up' that that had many a Coal Train from the Lidsdale sidings struggling to climb the grade to Marrangaroo Tunnel and pass 103/6 Tonneage signal.

I believe there have been some modifications done on the Sydney end of Mt Victoria but there is no reason why a Banker could not be detached at Mt Victoria.
I am guessing the Banker is coupled to the train and with the Air through, not just pushing as they did between Bathurst and Raglan and Coal Stage and the Zig Zag Bottom points when they ran those 4000 tonne Coal trains with 3 on the front ( one was the pilot who detached at Zig Zag) and the Banker who 'pushed' the Train only as far as those bottom points.
  petan Chief Commissioner

Location: Waiting to see a zebra using a zebra crossing!
A YouTube clip (not mine) showing the train with banker attached.

bingley hall
Wonder if anyone tried counting the wagons or containers to get a very rough approx payload?
  fzr560 Chief Train Controller

Lets just end this now before the egos get out of control.

The bank loco is detached at Mt Victoria and returns LE to Lithgow.

And 99.9% of trains arrive at Botany with loco/s in the lead and run around. Observe trains arriving every day and running the locos around.
Any push pull is a rarity and does not improve efficiency at the ports end of the operation.
The one I have seen on a Sunday runs from Enfield, detaches the lead loco outside the port gate allowing the rear loco to push the train into the port, clogging the neck of the yard, taking the same amount of time as a simple run around.
Just The Tip
This should end before some-one proves you wrong? Good thinking. To your last point first. What is your experience of working trains to Botany? How do you know which method is most efficient? Have you timed both methods? Have you used both methods? Do you know the HSE implications of both methods?
        You mention clogging the neck of the Yard. If the stevedore prefers to only have one operator on the premises, What exactly is the problem with leaving a loco outside the gate? There may be congestion issues at Botany but I don't think they occur at the stevedores gate. If Push-pull was clogging the yard, do you think ARTC would allow that method of working? You may find that the ratio of push-pull to head-end, changes in the near future.
  7334 Chief Commissioner

Location: In the workshop wondering why I started 7334 in the first place
The use of a bank engine in the rear on the Fletchers train was covered in the Railway Digest February 2017 issue on page 9.

According to the article the bank engine is attached if the weight of the train exceeds 5000 tons.  The bank engine is required between Wellington and Orange where there are 1 in 40 grades and Lithgow to Zig Zag where the grade is 1 in 42.  Hence it being removed at Mount Victoria.

The weight of the train on the day referred to in the article (26 November 2016) was 6032 tonnes and it was 62 wagons long.

I am sure I read "somewhere" that the reason for the banking in the rear was that the wagons in this particular train consist had drawgear limitations which were exceeded once the train reached a certain weight, hence the banker being in the rear.  I cannot now find that "somewhere" but I don't think I dreamed it!

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