Is the bank engine crewed? Or operated remotely?

The only turn back operation I am aware at Mt Victoria is the daily rail clean operation where a V set moves a few hundred metres west of Mt Vic on the down and then reverses to the up and continues on to Lawson. I do not think it is possible to move from the up to the down at Mt Vic. No one who works there has seen such an operation.

I am sure that if it did occur, it would be such an unusual move that a number of the usual photographers would be up there to capture the movement.

The only turn back operation I am aware at Mt Victoria is the daily rail clean operation where a V set moves a few hundred metres west of Mt Vic on the down and then reverses to the up and continues on to Lawson. I do not think it is possible to move from the up to the down at Mt Vic. No one who works there has seen such an operation.

I am sure that if it did occur, it would be such an unusual move that a number of the usual photographers would be up there to capture the movement.What about the empty cars of a morning out of the up yard at Mt Victoria , onto Platform 1 and then through 11 points onto the down and then to Lithgow. The banker coming off 8148 is a regular occurrence, detaching from the train in the platform and then back across to the down L/E to Lithgow. You must have spoken to the staff member who had only been there for 1 day, as it has happened a number of times recently and the empty cars happens every morning Monday to Friday. If you only do the 0600 shift you would not see it, try doing 1800.

FYI, except for Raglan Bank ( 1 in 50) and Zig Zag Bank (1 in 42) the ruling grade between Bathurst and Bell in the up direction is 1 in 75.

See: http://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/sites/default/files/b2b/railcorp/Curve_and_Gradient_Diagrams_V2-0_b.pdf

Have done the 1800 shift on many occasions at Mt Vic and never seen it. So why hasn't the movement been photographed? I will ask about the empty car movement. Was at Mt Vic Saturday evening.

Well the thread certainly dídn't go the way I expected it to in my OP.

But so far it's been smegging hilarious.

Thanks

I'm still surprised at 6,000 tonnes that the banker is not being used to assist with additional dynamic braking for the run down the mountain given the length of the grade, and the fact that it is a busy ish passenger corridor with extensive residential development etc.  I hate to bring out the "safety" card here and that's not my intention.  I just imagined Sysney Trains may have adopted a cautious approach.

Certainly there is a weight restriction on trains descending the Adelaide Hills from Mt Lofty that has been in place for years.    Having a locomotive at the rear assisting as I say was/is common practice in North America.

Just curious.   Clearly the existing arrangement works and has been signed off.

I'm still surprised at 6,000 tonnes that the banker is not being used to assist with additional dynamic braking for the run down the mountain given the length of the grade, and the fact that it is a busy ish passenger corridor with extensive residential development etc.  I hate to bring out the "safety" card here and that's not my intention.  I just imagined Sysney Trains may have adopted a cautious approach.

Certainly there is a weight restriction on trains descending the Adelaide Hills from Mt Lofty that has been in place for years.    Having a locomotive at the rear assisting as I say was/is common practice in North America.

Just curious.   Clearly the existing arrangement works and has been signed off.

Is the train ECP braked or air braked, please?

I'm still surprised at 6,000 tonnes that the banker is not being used to assist with additional dynamic braking for the run down the mountain given the length of the grade, and the fact that it is a busy ish passenger corridor with extensive residential development etc.  I hate to bring out the "safety" card here and that's not my intention.  I just imagined Sysney Trains may have adopted a cautious approach.

Certainly there is a weight restriction on trains descending the Adelaide Hills from Mt Lofty that has been in place for years.    Having a locomotive at the rear assisting as I say was/is common practice in North America.

Just curious.   Clearly the existing arrangement works and has been signed off.

Is the train ECP braked or air braked, please?

My understanding is that the only ECP braked train on that section is the Centennial coal train. I think the Centennial wagons are fitted for both ECP and conventional braking. While the FIE locomotives on the Fletchers train would have an ECP compatible brake system, The G class would not. So I don't think the Fletchers train uses ECP braking.

Peter

The only turn back operation I am aware at Mt Victoria is the daily rail clean operation where a V set moves a few hundred metres west of Mt Vic on the down and then reverses to the up and continues on to Lawson.

I do not think it is possible to move from the up to the down at Mt Vic.

It may help to view this diagram of Mt Victoria : http://www.sa-trackandsignal.net/Pdf%20files/Sydney/RC2764.pdf

There appears to be 25 double slip to go from Up to Down, but no signals, unless you use a flagman.

However, it doesn't make sense that 25 points has three ends, 25A, 25B and 25C, while 26 has only one end.

Looking through the ARHS DVD on Track and Signal Diagram v3 (T&SV3) the double slips on the main lines including 25, were only single slips as recently as 1981, which suggests that sa-trackandsignal.net is wrong, and that there is no move from the Up Main to Platform 2.

FYI, except for Raglan Bank ( 1 in 50) and Zig Zag Bank (1 in 42) the ruling grade between Bathurst and Bell in the up direction is 1 in 75.

See: http://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/sites/default/files/b2b/railcorp/Curve_and_Gradient_Diagrams_V2-0_b.pdf

I had a look at the curve and gradient diagram.
There are multiple sections between Brewongle  and Wambool where the adjusted gradient is less than 1/75 (worst is 1/67).
There are multiple sections between Tarana and Rydal where the adjusted gradient is less than 1/75 (worst is 1/59).
There is a short section between Cox's river and Marrangaroo Tunnel, where adjusted gradient is 1/67.
Between Penrith and Kingswood the gradient is 1/66.

What impact do these section have on the ruling grade?
Would anyone know what is the maximum grade a 6000 ton train can climb (without a banker engine)?

FYI, except for Raglan Bank ( 1 in 50) and Zig Zag Bank (1 in 42) the ruling grade between Bathurst and Bell in the up direction is 1 in 75.

See: http://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/sites/default/files/b2b/railcorp/Curve_and_Gradient_Diagrams_V2-0_b.pdf

I had a look at the curve and gradient diagram.
There are multiple sections between Brewongle  and Wambool where the adjusted gradient is less than 1/75 (worst is 1/67).
There are multiple sections between Tarana and Rydal where the adjusted gradient is less than 1/75 (worst is 1/59).
There is a short section between Cox's river and Marrangaroo Tunnel, where adjusted gradient is 1/67.
Between Penrith and Kingswood the gradient is 1/66.

What impact do these section have on the ruling grade?
Would anyone know what is the maximum grade a 6000 ton train can climb (without a banker engine)?

The effective grade depends on the average gradient over the length of a train. It helps that trains are getting longer these days.

This is easier to calculate if all wagons are loaded to the same weight, which may not be the case.

The railways have an ancient FORTRAN computer program called MTRAIN which simulates the operation of trains over varying grades, and the simulated train will stall if the load is too heavy for the steep grades. This program assumes that the waggons are evenly loaded, which is obviously not the case.

The old and badly designed Stanwell Park Tunnel, on the ruling 1 in 40 grade, had a station stop at the Tunnel entrance.

Some sections can be surmounted if the train enters the steep section at speed, which makes this a "Momentum Grade".

Kingswood Bank would be a momentum grade, and heavy freight trains may be held at say the Up Accept to ensure a clear sun for the steep grade ahead.

Did the program make allowances for the curvature of the track? I have been told the tight curves on the Adelaide hills line make an 1800m train several hundred tonnes "heavier" because of the increased frictional forces.

Mt Victoria is in this track plan (page 50) from Transport for NSW Train Operating Conditions (TOC) Manual – Track Diagrams Version 8.0 Issued date: 19 December 2016  (40MB)
http://www.asa.transport.nsw.gov.au/sites/default/files/asa/asa-standards/ts-toc-3.pdf - shows single slips.

The only turn back operation I am aware at Mt Victoria is the daily rail clean operation where a V set moves a few hundred metres west of Mt Vic on the down and then reverses to the up and continues on to Lawson.

I do not think it is possible to move from the up to the down at Mt Vic.

It may help to view this diagram of Mt Victoria : http://www.sa-trackandsignal.net/Pdf%20files/Sydney/RC2764.pdf

There appears to be 25 double slip to go from Up to Down, but no signals, unless you use a flagman.

However, it doesn't make sense that 25 points has three ends, 25A, 25B and 25C, while 26 has only one end.

Looking through the ARHS DVD on Track and Signal Diagram v3 (T&SV3) the double slips on the main lines including 25, were only single slips as recently as 1981, which suggests that sa-trackandsignal.net is wrong, and that there is no move from the Up Main to Platform 2.

The movement previously described is from Platform 1 to the Down Main, not the other way, although under yard working a train can be brought out of the yard onto Plat 2 unsignalled or even taken through 41 points at the Sydney end onto the down main. Why make guesses if you have not worked the Box at Mt Victoria?

The effective grade depends on the average gradient over the length of a train. It helps that trains are getting longer these days.

This is easier to calculate if all wagons are loaded to the same weight, which may not be the case.

The railways have an ancient FORTRAN computer program called MTRAIN which simulates the operation of trains over varying grades, and the simulated train will stall if the load is too heavy for the steep grades. This program assumes that the waggons are evenly loaded, which is obviously not the case.

The old and badly designed Stanwell Park Tunnel, on the ruling 1 in 40 grade, had a station stop at the Tunnel entrance.

Some sections can be surmounted if the train enters the steep section at speed, which makes this a "Momentum Grade".

Kingswood Bank would be a momentum grade, and heavy freight trains may be held at say the Up Accept to ensure a clear sun for the steep grade ahead.

The effective grade depends on the average gradient over the length of a train. It helps that trains are getting longer these days.

This is easier to calculate if all wagons are loaded to the same weight, which may not be the case.

The railways have an ancient FORTRAN computer program called MTRAIN which simulates the operation of trains over varying grades, and the simulated train will stall if the load is too heavy for the steep grades. This program assumes that the waggons are evenly loaded, which is obviously not the case.

The old and badly designed Stanwell Park Tunnel, on the ruling 1 in 40 grade, had a station stop at the Tunnel entrance.

Some sections can be surmounted if the train enters the steep section at speed, which makes this a "Momentum Grade".

Kingswood Bank would be a momentum grade, and heavy freight trains may be held at say the Up Accept to ensure a clear sun for the steep grade ahead.
Thank you for the info, MTRAIN seems to be critical for freight train operators.

It would be nice if someone knew the ruling grade for a 6000 ton train.
I would like a simple ruling grade. That is, imagining a 50km long straight track that is constantly at the ruling grade, the train will be able to make it without stalling. No complicated computer software required.