North Terrace Trams

 
  Pressman Spirit of the Vine

Location: Wherever the Tin Chook or Qantas takes me
Well with all this talk of "pulling the plug", no one seems to have told the people doing the job, centre barriers where being placed today from King William street to the Old RAH

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  DJPeters Deputy Commissioner

Well with all this talk of "pulling the plug", no one seems to have told the people doing the job, centre barriers where being placed today from King William street to the Old RAH
Pressman
I did say that the North Terrace part was still going ahead and that only the Festival Centre section all 100 metres or so of it has got the plug!
  kipioneer Chief Commissioner

Location: Aberfoyle Park
DJPeters, Really?

https://www.infrastructure.sa.gov.au/public_transport_projects/city_tram_extension/news_And_publications the current info suggests  otherwise.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
Well with all this talk of "pulling the plug", no one seems to have told the people doing the job, centre barriers where being placed today from King William street to the Old RAH
Pressman
Agreed, I've seen several things happening including an apparent narrowing of the footpaths where the stops are supposed to be (or appear to be?). I don't doubt that this thing is happening... is Jay Weatherill's credit card bouncing yet, it should be!!
  trainbrain Chief Commissioner

passed thru this area this morning, to far gone to cancel it, may as well finish the project.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Was there ever any press release about it being cancelled? I looked around the time of the early posts said it may have been cancelled and never saw anything.
  normangerman Junior Train Controller

Pretty sure this DJPeters guy is a troll or taking the piss.
  Halo Chief Train Controller

I see another event similar to the single track at the entrance to the convention centre.

It had to be ripped up and redone with double track.


Why is this in the SA thread and not in the Trams thread? I did actually start a thread there for this discussion.
  Pressman Spirit of the Vine

Location: Wherever the Tin Chook or Qantas takes me
I had the misfortune of trying to drive down North terrace this arvo ....... bumper to bumper between Hackney Road and East Terrace and nothing appeared to be moving on North Terrace west bound (total gridlock!) Shocked, luckily I managed to turn left onto Easy terrace and hence take a different route.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
@Halo - Don't know, but not much happening in SA so why not

@Pressman _ I love hearing Adelaidians complain about traffic jams, it sounds so cute.
  62440 Chief Commissioner

Had the chance for a chat and a think.
The bit down to the parade ground is the first stage of Prospect Road so a Glenelg Prospect tram needs a north South Crossing
The bit to the oRAH is the first stage of the EW link so needs an EW crossing
KWS to North Terrace stays as existing
Trams from Prospect Road need to access the ring route

It is pretty obvious that eventually a full grand union will be needed. This is a massive job needing a large flat base and grading in from all sides. Adelaide is good at doing a bit, then ripping it all up to do the next bit. This is a chance for a once only chance to future proof the whole intersection. Only a cynic would suggest that the minimalist version which seems to be the go is the only one that can be done before the next election.

Driving through the 30 minute city is not easy at the moment.
I have looked at proposals but I have not found a definitive proposal for the KW/North Tce intersection currently under construction
  Pressman Spirit of the Vine

Location: Wherever the Tin Chook or Qantas takes me
As of Noon today (Sunday 8th), Both tracks have been layed and concreted across Frome St intersection. Other areas excavated ready for track work between Frome and King William Streets.
A pile of rail is on the ground between the old RAH stop and East Terrace.
  DJPeters Deputy Commissioner

Had the chance for a chat and a think.
The bit down to the parade ground is the first stage of Prospect Road so a Glenelg Prospect tram needs a north South Crossing
The bit to the oRAH is the first stage of the EW link so needs an EW crossing
KWS to North Terrace stays as existing
Trams from Prospect Road need to access the ring route

It is pretty obvious that eventually a full grand union will be needed. This is a massive job needing a large flat base and grading in from all sides. Adelaide is good at doing a bit, then ripping it all up to do the next bit. This is a chance for a once only chance to future proof the whole intersection. Only a cynic would suggest that the minimalist version which seems to be the go is the only one that can be done before the next election.

Driving through the 30 minute city is not easy at the moment.
I have looked at proposals but I have not found a definitive proposal for the KW/North Tce intersection currently under construction
62440
Yes that is what I suggested put in the full grand union and when it comes time to expand the tram service elsewhere you do not need to dig up one of the busiest intersections in the city again just dig out for the tram lines and bolt the rails on and away you go. Even if nothing more gets done now it is there if ever needed in the future. But this is South Australia we are talking about and putting in something new and the removing it a few years later to do what should have been done in the first place is almost endemic here. Oaklands Railway Station is another one and there are probably a lot of others as well if you explore the place!
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Had the chance for a chat and a think.
The bit down to the parade ground is the first stage of Prospect Road so a Glenelg Prospect tram needs a north South Crossing
The bit to the oRAH is the first stage of the EW link so needs an EW crossing
KWS to North Terrace stays as existing
Trams from Prospect Road need to access the ring route

It is pretty obvious that eventually a full grand union will be needed. This is a massive job needing a large flat base and grading in from all sides. Adelaide is good at doing a bit, then ripping it all up to do the next bit. This is a chance for a once only chance to future proof the whole intersection. Only a cynic would suggest that the minimalist version which seems to be the go is the only one that can be done before the next election.

Driving through the 30 minute city is not easy at the moment.
I have looked at proposals but I have not found a definitive proposal for the KW/North Tce intersection currently under construction
Yes that is what I suggested put in the full grand union and when it comes time to expand the tram service elsewhere you do not need to dig up one of the busiest intersections in the city again just dig out for the tram lines and bolt the rails on and away you go. Even if nothing more gets done now it is there if ever needed in the future. But this is South Australia we are talking about and putting in something new and the removing it a few years later to do what should have been done in the first place is almost endemic here. Oaklands Railway Station is another one and there are probably a lot of others as well if you explore the place!
DJPeters
I don't see how obvious it is at all to build a full Grand union. Maybe in 10-15 years time or more, but not before then. Adelaide does not have a tram network, it has a one line, with two stub branches being built off it now. I support the northern extension into North Adelaide but this is probably 10 years of more away and even then, will trams need to head east?

Sydney spent billions untangling its network, a Grand union is only needed if you want a complicated timetable.
  DJPeters Deputy Commissioner

But digging up this intersection all the time and having to relocate pipes, cables and gas mains etc should only have needed to be done once only right at the start, if they do not do it this time that will make the third time the intersection has been dug up to put in tram lines even if done in 10 years time. All they should have done in the first place was put the whole thing in and simply locked the point blades from moving in places that there is no current tram line then later there is way less disruption to North Terrace and King William Road traffic a lot of cross town bus services use both roads daily and it is from memory the busiest intersection in the Adelaide CBD and getting worse all the time!

It would have been cheaper to do this back then than to continually dig up and replace the intersection all the time because a new tram line is built. It will not make any difference to the road way over the unused bits and pieces of track as it would all be in concrete anyway. Just how much does it cost every ten years to dig up and replace something that could have been put in, in the first place with a bit of foresight!
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

I don't see how obvious it is at all to build a full Grand union. Maybe in 10-15 years time or more, but not before then. Adelaide does not have a tram network, it has a one line, with two stub branches being built off it now. I support the northern extension into North Adelaide but this is probably 10 years of more away and even then, will trams need to head east?

Sydney spent billions untangling its network, a Grand union is only needed if you want a complicated timetable.
RTT_Rules
I agree completely, you can't have a reliable high frequency timetable if it's all tangled together.

There's a further point - a full grand union is a major PITA (and therefore also a PITW - pain in the wallet) to keep maintained, why bother with that if it's unnecessary? There's a bloody good reason that they are so damn rare!

Hopefully the underground services have been relocated as if a full grand union was being put in, so extra segments could be added by simply replacing the track panels if they ever become necessary. DPTI seem to be starting to get the point about passive provision for future changes, it has been built into quite a number of their recent/current projects including the Northern Expressway, South Road Superway, Seaford Rail Extension, Darlington Upgrade, Northern Connector and Torrens Junction Upgrade.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

I have to agree with DJPeters on this one RTT. Regardless of a future extension if you have a full crossing then build the grand union now so nothing needs to be done in the future makes way more sense. I sense however that due to cost cutting this won't be the case.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
I have to agree with DJPeters on this one RTT. Regardless of a future extension if you have a full crossing then build the grand union now so nothing needs to be done in the future makes way more sense. I sense however that due to cost cutting this won't be the case.
simstrain
Two issues

- 1) Digging up the road?

- 2) do they actually need a Grand Union?

1) When building the extension, all things under the road that need to be protected or moved can be done so regardless and would most likely be done anyway as its not that much wider.

If the time frame gap is 10-15 years or more, it shouldn't even be a consideration as too far in future to worry about.

2) No, they want to build a grand union to say they have a grand union. It would likely be the only two branch tram network in the world that has one (Does Melbourne have one?). The only reason you would have one is to have  complex inter tangled timetable, rather than the more modern approach of A-B, C-D, E-F.
  duttonbay Minister for Railways

2) No, they want to build a grand union to say they have a grand union. It would likely be the only two branch tram network in the world that has one (Does Melbourne have one?). The only reason you would have one is to have  complex inter tangled timetable, rather than the more modern approach of A-B, C-D, E-F.
RTT_Rules
Yes. Balaclava Junction, corner of Hawthorn and Balaclava Road in Caulfield, is a grand union. There are a number of intersections which might go close, some in the CBD having legs added in recent years.
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

2) No, they want to build a grand union to say they have a grand union.
RTT_Rules
It's the gunzel equivalent of a big spoiler and chrome-tipped quad exhausts.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Two issues

- 1) Digging up the road?

- 2) do they actually need a Grand Union?

1) When building the extension, all things under the road that need to be protected or moved can be done so regardless and would most likely be done anyway as its not that much wider.

If the time frame gap is 10-15 years or more, it shouldn't even be a consideration as too far in future to worry about.

2) No, they want to build a grand union to say they have a grand union. It would likely be the only two branch tram network in the world that has one (Does Melbourne have one?). The only reason you would have one is to have  complex inter tangled timetable, rather than the more modern approach of A-B, C-D, E-F.
RTT_Rules

Understandable points but we are talking about Adelaide trams and not Sydney's train system and so interlinking isn't really going to be an issue on this one. A lot of traffic will be using that intersection to go north to adelaide oval, west to the entertainment centre, south to the beach and east to whatever is going to happen at the old hospital site.

Melbourne may not have a grand junction but with their network a grand junction isn't really necessary since lines are spread out throughout the cbd. The king William parade intersection looks to be a main crossroads and so a grand junction could actually be of significant value to the Adelaide system.
  edison Chief Commissioner

A grand union would be cheaper to build now than in a few years' time. Also, if full use were to be made of a GU junction, there would need to be a signal box, as this location had in days gone by (or would they have some form of electronic route selection in each tram?)
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

A grand union would be cheaper to build now than in a few years' time.
edison
And even cheaper would be to not build one at all, just plan the future services now and only build the segments that are actually necessary for the required operations. No need to spend millions on building and maintaining segments that aren't needed just so a handful of gunzels can wet their pants.

Every other existing tram network has been reducing complexity, not increasing it. This is good ctrl+c ctrl+v planning in SA, hope we see more of it.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
A grand union would be cheaper to build now than in a few years' time. Also, if full use were to be made of a GU junction, there would need to be a signal box, as this location had in days gone by (or would they have some form of electronic route selection in each tram?)
edison
A grand union has how many points of which how many will not be used for many used but need extensive maintenance due to the frequency of traffic. Build it when its needed which at the growth rate of the northern branch could be 10 years or more and likely more.

No need for signal box, the drivers control points via wireless.Well I should say I don't know about Adelaide but a driver in Germany showed me how it worked. They have a switch on the dash board they hold left or right as the approach an intersection.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE

Understandable points but we are talking about Adelaide trams and not Sydney's train system and so interlinking isn't really going to be an issue on this one. A lot of traffic will be using that intersection to go north to adelaide oval, west to the entertainment centre, south to the beach and east to whatever is going to happen at the old hospital site.

Melbourne may not have a grand junction but with their network a grand junction isn't really necessary since lines are spread out throughout the cbd. The king William parade intersection looks to be a main crossroads and so a grand junction could actually be of significant value to the Adelaide system.
simstrain
The magic word "Network", its a single line with two stub branches. And yes the large scale tram networks in Germany and other places I have been do not run spaghetti networks either. To confusing to all.

Now do yourself a favour and look at a map of Adelaide. Fortunately I actually rode SA the tram 6 weeks back from one end to the other and stayed near its norther terminus so its still fairly fresh in my mind. Do we see a critical need to run trams from KW St into Nth Terrence of Vice Versa. Even if extended into Nth Adelaide, the two terminii would be only a short distance apart. It would be quicker to walk. It is highly unlikely the tram will be extended beyond the Entertainment Centre as it would just parallel the OH/Grange railway line and no other road is suited to having a tram line in the area. The Centre of Nth Adelaide is less than 1.5km as the crow flys from Bowden Railway station/Entertainment Centre tram stop. As for stops on Nth Terance itself. The Railway station is within 250m of the intersection. So I think we can rule out the need for a West to North (and VV) connection as I just don't see the volumes that would justify the track work expense. Rather they can change trams like every other network.

DO we need a North to East connection? Well as this stub branch is only to be built 650m long (for now), no. What about the future? Would depend on the extension route and time frame. If we are talking 10+ years, forget it. Build it when its needed as both the northern and eastern branches need to be extended for this to be of use.

Remember the North stub branch will not actually reach the Oval for a few years as its only being built 100m or so long and this is barely long enough to even justify a stop. I'd call it a shunt neck out of the way of the main line. Back to  Sydney, think clear ways.

I'm not sure what the govt is looking at doing scheduling wise. From what I saw there was alot of continuous ridership through the intersection. So it will be interesting to see how these branches are timetabled.

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